Bill Walker Was Nice to Have Around
by Greg Payne on Feb 24, 2010 9:24 AM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintFour of five years from now, for all we know, Bill Walker could be an NBA All-Star. Or, four of five years from now, Bill Walker could be an NBA nobody. Or, four or five years from now, Bill Walker could be somewhere in between.
It's impossible to tell just how much Walker will develop over the next several years, but at the same time, that was half the fun of having him as a member of the Boston Celtics. We weren't sure when or even if Walker would turn into a legitimate NBA player, but many of us loved the idea of him possibly becoming somebody. Immersed inside of us was an ever-flowing river of hope that Walker would be the next go-to guy (or the next "next", as Jeff Clark might say), and it was fun having it there.
Which is why it was so bittersweet watching Walker sky for his first dunk of the game - now in a Knicks uniform - with 2:53 left in the first quarter last night and finish with seven points. On the one hand, you're happy that he's receiving minutes, but on the other hand, you're ever so slightly disappointed that he's no longer a Celtic. We no longer have that young guy on the bench who could have potentially made his eventual ascent into the starting lineup to help bridge the gap to the future. It's difficult not to latch onto the exciting, young, athletic wing player - the prototypical NBA swingman. That reality with Walker might have never actually came to fruition, but it was that hope that it would that seemed to captivate many of us.
However, in sports, there's little room for nostalgia. What's done is done. Bill Walker is a Knick and Nate Robinson is a Celtic. What the future holds for both cannot be predicted. But it certainly was fun having Walker around these past two years. It wouldn't surprise me at all if many of us quietly kept tabs on his performances for the next few seasons. Here's to a bright future for him and another title for us.
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Hear, hear!
Absolutely Greg.
Very well put.
Great writing as usual.
I still really don't understand
the trade. We won a championship with a decrepit Sam Cassel and Eddie House as our backup PG’s. Why did we need to go get a hot dog? Locker room issues? doesn’t seem likely. Eddie spread the floor and Bill had definite potential.
Nate… well… he plays like a circus act to me.
Personally, I've been trying to stay quiet on the trade itself
I’m still not sure how I feel about it. I guess I see both sides, so I find myself stuck in limbo with it.
Agreed
I’m not exactly sure what we gained. We have 13 players now as opposed to 14. We have another undersized shooting guard playing the back-up one. We have one less young guy on the bench who will never play.
This is one move I have a difficult time trying to defend. Maybe Nate will bring more value in a future trade? Danny’s always said to be thinking a few moves ahead. So maybe we’ll have to wait on this one.
by amenhotep04 on Feb 24, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
Looks like it was a trade for trading sake
I hated losing Walker. He was a good guy, fun to watch and brought energy when he played. If we got Sergio in the deal I could have lived with it, but we didn’t. We got hosed.
LUE would have been just fine and would not have cost any future
All-star?
I would be pretty much anything that Bill Walker is never going to be an all-star.
Great write-up Greg. It was weird watching eddie shoot last night and hoping it didn’t go in. Nate will take some time to implement in effectively, but you could tell he’s much more capable of creating than Eddie. IMO, losing Walker wasn’t meaningful. Overall I’m happy with the trade.
Thanks very much, Tom
At the same time, it was funny watching Eddie chase Ray around and then Rondo guarding Eddie on the other end. I bet they were talking a ton of smack to one another. You could see it starting as soon as Eddie checked in for the first time and some of the C’s walked over to welcome him back.
Young Players
I was one of the ones clamoring for the young players to see more time. I have now come to the realisation that Doc is not going to play young guys unless forced to. So although it was nice to have guys like Walker and Giddens around they were never going to develop here.
It looks like the C’s will assemble a team completely of veterans until the big 3 are about to retire then go into full rebuilding mode around Rondo and Perk. It would be nice to bring other young players along for the transition but it’s just not happening.
Who knows them best
Gerald Green’s trade similarly triggered a lot of handwringing by the fans, but in the end, the Ainge/Rivers decision making was spot on. I believe the same is going to be true for Walker and Giddens because after two years or so, I think the coaching staff and the general manager are in a better position to know who’s got potential who doesn’t.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 24, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
We still need the bridge
I believe Danny Ainge has a good nose for talent, when you look at all the productive players he’s found over the years…. Rondo, Jefferson, Perk, Davis, Gomes, Powe, Allen, West. Of couse we were lousy back then and had the time and ability tiodevelop those young guys.
But what I’ve been waiting for over the past couple of years is 1-2 “bridge guys” to ease the transition to the post Big 3 era. We can’t just expect to use the money freed up from those contracts to sign replacement free agents. We need to draft and develop our own talent and supplement with free agents.
Maybe Bill Walker, Gabe Pruitt, JR Giddens will never be players but at some point we need to find some kids that will be players and develop them into stars. The window is closing with the Big 3 and so far I don’t see a viable succession plan.
what he said
i think the plan was to parlay expiring contracts into young talent. that plan didn’t work out this year, but it could still in two years when we suck and KG and Rasheed are expiring…. maybe
Good points, both of you.
Danny seems to have an eye for young talent (Al Jefferson, Delonte West, Tony Allen (hey, he’s contributing these days), Rajon Rondo, and he reportedly loved Tyreke Evans), which gives me hope that we can eventually bring some legitimate, young talent in. The only thing is, I’ve also read that Danny refuses to go back to square one, ala ‘06-’07, and who can blame him…So at the same time, will he ever put together a team that consists primarily of young, legit talent, you know? Or from now on, will he always try and trade for veterans of the moment? It’s interesting.
he also has a good eye for talent that stinks
Marcus Banks, Jiri Welch , I could name quite a few on the other side…but that is the past …..I just hope Nate provides some sort of a spark
“The Low Spark of HIgh Heeled Boys”
Is it Soup Yet?
it was nice having a guy who could dunk on others since we're always the ones
getting dunked on. Who knows if Bill Walker will ever be anything but what I would like to know is wheterh we HAD to include him in this deal or whether Danny wanted to trade him. Maybe we’re not placing enough weight on Landry. Everyone assumes he’s cap filler but maybe Danny really wanted him. I haven’t checked trade checker but it wasn’t necessary to trade walker and giddens and number 2 plus eddie to get Nate. New York obviously was greedy and Danny obviously was desperate and probably worried about LA getting him but there’s no question that we overpaid for Robinson.
I would agree that we overpaid based on the intrinsic value of the players.
And it remains to be seen whether Nate will be able to space the 2nd team offense the way we need him too. But your last point probably should not be entirely dismissed.
LA’s biggest weakness when we matchup against them is Rondo v Fisher.
Strategically, preventing LA from getting Nate (a much younger, more athletic PG than Fisher) adds some to his value beyond his intrinsic value to us.
Re: dunking. Yeah, its nice – but dunks don’t win games.
What annoys me more...
than hearing “The start of the Nate Robinson Era” all over the radio is people who believe that we have to make moves to “match up” against LA fact is we face them twice a year, just as we do with every West team….we need to focus on matching up against the East teams more than anything, because it doesnt matter how well we match up against LA if we dont get to the Finals…. gotta get to the dance before you can shake it if we focus on matching up against a team we MIGHT face, rather than teams we WILL face in the playoffs then we are in big trouble
by Nick Sannicandro on Feb 24, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
LA had to be a very minor point
…in the consideration. My impression is that Doc has liked Nate’s game for a long time, and coveted him. When the opportunity arose… knowing that they needed to fill that backup PG spot… they pulled the trigger. Given that his 3pt accuracy is just about equal to Eddie’s, but his ball handling, speed, and play-making abilities are much, much better, I don’t see how you can say we “overpaid”. Walker and Gidden are, obviously, meaningless.
We did actually have to include other players due to nate's byc status
Unfortunately
tho I don’t think we had to give a pick
yes we overpaid
by Warrior Spirit on Feb 24, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
I would say given time robinson can have more of an impact for us than eddie ,just dealing with game issues it will be different.Eddie shot three’s and long two’s which cab spread the floor but also lead to a lot of long rebounds and a lot of fast breaks,nate takes it to the hole which will allow for more free throws getting teams in foul trouble and second chance opprotunities.Eddie just was never a ball handler a noticable weakness,while nate isn’t a true pg he can run offense and can handle the rock.Passing I’d think that we would see a lot more easy buckets off of drives and dishes but would not consider him to be a prolific passer by any means .I would have liked the trade a lot more if it was just a staight up trade eddie for nate.I personally do believe Billy can be an asset and a solid to very good nba player,just using the logic that even in his smallest capacity a slam dunk is worth more than two points in a tight game it can get the crowd in the game and sometimes send them into a frenzy,and only a select few nba players can even dunk in games not to mention on someone.I also believe Billy will be much more than just a dunk guy.I understand this is it for us its win or nothing at all and Doc is going to do that within his comfort zone “with his guys” meaning vets,so all in all Billy would never had the opprotunity in green and white unless we got hit with the bubonic plague and even then Doc would have inserted himself and ty lue as player coaches,maybe brought danny in for that “deep threat”.before using any of the kids just not his thing and you can’t argue or be mad at a man that stands with his convictions you have to respect a man for that and I do doesn’t mean I have to like it though does it ,Good luck billy I’ll definitly keep my eye on ya
by reggie_35 on Feb 24, 2010 10:13 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Dunking is EASY
when you’re athletic and defenders get out of the way like last night for bill walker.
.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
Not Just a Dunker
The perception of Walker is that he’s just a guy who can run and jump; what gave me some hope for his future was that he also showed a pretty good shooting touch — you could see it in his 3pt and FT percentages last year in the D-League, you could see it in the step-back jumper he showed in the summer league. The question with him was always whether, if he was given the playing time, he could (and how quickly he could) catch up with the speed of the NBA game — on both offense and defense (where he frankly looks pretty lost). I guess now maybe we’ll see.
Good Call
A lot of people forget that Walker was the man on Kansas State until Michael Beasley came around. Walker still had plenty of games where he outplayed Beasley but he messed up his knee and got sidetracked. Had he stayed healthy, he probably would have gone a lot higher in the draft.
I think this kid is a player and is going to be a lot better than people expect as long as he stays healthy. He just needs a shot to play. And as someone sad above, he was never going to get that time on the Celtics, as long as Doc was coach. He is terrible at developing young talent and if anything he sets them back because he gets in their head and makes them look over their shoulder as soon as they make a mistake. So frustrating.
Huge Walker Fan
Still bitter that Bryan Colangelo took Nathan Jawai over him…think he’ll become a solid rotation guy in this league if he can stay healthy…
greg its a well written article
but bill walker can jump and hustle and thats about it.. i really cant stand people clamoring for him
Thanks jbuell719
BUT, that’s what’s interesting…Sure, that’s all we saw of him, but he’s only 22… But based on Doc and co. apparently not having enough faith in him to play him, you might very well be right. Imagine, though if he actually developed into a well-rounded player as his career goes on. I mean, do you think we can completely rule out that possibility?
i honestly dont see it
i will root for the guy because he was a celtic who seemed to be a good teammate while he was here… but i see bill walker more as a gerald green type than say a joe johnson type or even dhantay jones.. He seems to me to be a leaper and not much more but i guess its true u never know..
The part that drives me crazy is that people act like doc never develops any young talent when the truth of the matter is that when he has had REAL young talent he has played them, and the talented young guys have played.. I just think people think since their young their going to be these superstars because they did some impressive things in college or summer league action.
Rooting for a guy who really has not had much of chance is not "Clamoring" and
if you can’t stand it ….don’t read it …
Is it Soup Yet?
i actually liked the article
the part that confuses me is that the guy scores seven points last night and everybody is saying how it was so bad to trade him? because he scored seven points.. its like people are using that as validation towards the “Bill Walker is going to be a superstar fan club”
I hope my article didn't come off as me saying it was a bad trade
I just figured people would be talking about him after the dunk and what not, so I figured I’d do a quick ode to why we liked him why he was here and to wish him the best.
Say whaaaat?
Rooting for a guy who really has not had much of chance is not “Clamoring”
This reminds me so much of another athletic dunker, Gerald Green; the guy gets traded and some Cs fans acted like he was never given a chance to prove himself.
What do you think goes on in practice sessions? If he didn’t get played, that means he didn’t deserved it. Ya think the entire coaching staff, plus the general manager saw Walker’s potential, and simply choose not to play him much? After all, they drafted Walker, signed him to a contract, and developed him for like two years, so I’m guessing they must have wanted him turn out well, and be a solid contributor to the team?
if you can’t stand it ….don’t read it …
Trying to shut someone down for merely holding a different opinion? :)
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 24, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
but look who he has to practice against
how is a rookie to compete against our starting lineup.. only thing that matters is actual nba playing time .. he will see dat with the knicks .. n u will see a future most improved player of the year.. also the thing with walker is hes use to being a role player .. he was always in the shadows of the future stars in this lg beasley and mayo .. give this kid a chance n he will flourish
fact is...
that Doc has never really given Youngs chances to prove themselves in games unless forced to like last year w/ Rondo he gives them short leashes and if the goal of this team is to get younger, it wont be with Doc at the helm.
by Nick Sannicandro on Feb 24, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Hey IDIOT!!!!
you and I ….I wish we could take it outside.
I was not a fan of GG, nor did I say I knew what goes on in practice sessions IDIOT!!! I was aloso not inferring Billy Walker was some hidden LeBron James that Doc totally ignored….what I have said is that I wish Billy would have got more time to play to see what he could do….Thta’s not even a criticism of Doc in this specific context….just an observation because I watched him at K-State and thinks he has nice potential
And please here me IDIOT!!!!!!! I am not saying that anyone’s opinion on here is invalid ….but sometimes I do take exception to how that opinion is posted….. when someone says “I can’t stand it to read that” – it reminds me of my wife saying “I can’t stand to watch this program on TV” – this is when I say to her then don’t watch it or change the channel (we have been married for 24 years so don’t say she should divorce me).
But you IDIOT are trying to infer I am some how trying to shut down all opinions…..the only person I wish I could shut down on this site is your smart mouth anda bout two other guys…but I can’t because I don’t own the site!!!! I do have the power to edit you out but I don’t do that……
I was one of the first people ever on this site and feel I have contributed alot to this site over the years and have never shut anybody down – EVER. I have many friends on here that I think a great deal of. They are great people and yet we disagree – with repsect
What I don’t need Mr V IDIOT is you up in my face on this site….and if I could see your face in person I would do my best old man impression (which I am) is to knock your nose off and feed it to you thru that big sour mouth of yours.
Is it Soup Yet?
Why would I?
Why do you think I’d point out your typos? Fear not, I am not that smart. I can’t even tell the difference between a quote and a paraphrase. I am, after all, just the IDIOT, The Village Idiot. :)
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 24, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Seems to me you are the idiot
trying to intimidate people here.
Lol
A perfect example of how important it is to choose your user name wisely. That which is normally verboten is perfectly fine if it’s your name.
Apparently
I agree with what you said up top about young stars coming in right away, jbuell719…Only a handful of guys (LeBron, Tyreke Evans, Derrick Rose, etc.) actually make a sincere impact right away…And certainly, Walker only gave us evidence of his sheer athletic ability, so you definitely have a good point about what we saw and what conclusions we can come to based on what we did see.
You just proved my point
you and I ….I wish we could take it outside.
I got nothing but love for you, Master Po.
I was not a fan of GG, nor did I say I knew what goes on in practice sessions IDIOT!!! I was aloso not inferring Billy Walker was some hidden LeBron James that Doc totally ignored….what I have said is that I wish Billy would have got more time to play to see what he could do….Thta’s not even a criticism of Doc in this specific context….just an observation because I watched him at K-State and thinks he has nice potential.
I never said you were a fan of GG. Just pointing out that there was a lot of handwringing by Cs fans similar to what we’re seeing now with Walker, when GG was traded. Bill Walker had his chance in Boston and couldn’t make much of it. This is the pros, not college, and yeah, Olowokandi also had potential in college too, which makes your Bill Walker argument rather weak. That’s all.
And please here me IDIOT!!!!!!! I am not saying that anyone’s opinion on here is invalid ….but sometimes I do take exception to how that opinion is posted….. when someone says "I can’t stand it to read that" – it reminds me of my wife saying "I can’t stand to watch this program on TV" – this is when I say to her then don’t watch it or change the channel (we have been married for 24 years so don’t say she should divorce me).
Maybe you should stop treating everybody like they are your wife. We all come here to share our opinions, some more informed that others. But I find it troubling that your reaction to opinions that are different from yours is to tell people off in a manner that is frankly anti-free speech.
But you IDIOT are trying to infer I am some how trying to shut down all opinions…..the only person I wish I could shut down on this site is your smart mouth and about two other guys…but I can’t because I don’t own the site!!!! I do have the power to edit you out but I don’t do that……
Well, you’re proving my point!!!! And boy am I glad you don’t own this site, because your anti-free speech antics are so blatantly obvious. You can’t even pretend anymore! So, Go ahead, show me where power lies and edit me out. Give some people a little power, and they become tyrants.
I was one of the first people ever on this site and feel I have contributed a lot to this site over the years and have never shut anybody down – EVER. I have many friends on here that I think a great deal of. They are great people and yet we disagree – with repsect.
I say this to you with all due respect, that I have enjoyed many of your posts tremendously, and yes, I agree that you have contributed a lot to this site. However, I disagree strongly with some of your tactics; they are downright anti-free speech – trying to shut down opinions you find not to your liking in an under handed way. And let me say this to you loud and clear… The true test of a man is not how he treats his friends and those with whom he agrees, but rather how he treats strangers and those with whom he disagrees the most. Look, it’s easy to get along with, and respect people who are your friends. On the other hand, it’s much harder to respect strangers and those with whom you disagree.
What I don’t need Mr V IDIOT is you up in my face on this site….and if I could see your face in person I would do my best old man impression (which I am) is to knock your nose off and feed it to you thru that big sour mouth of yours.
Alas, you’ve done much to prove my point over and over again. If I were in your face, I’d let you knock my nose off and feed it to me, as you like it, but when you’re done, I’ll just give you a nice hug and tell you what a really nice person you are deep down.
I am… proudly, THE VILLAGE IDIOT
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 24, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
To bad he did not get real minutes in Boston
Some thought he was not a good player, others thought he was (like me).
Would of been nice if Doc played him so he could prove to all of us what he was really made of.
I liked his potential which he had alot of.
He was a athletic beast to begin with, fast and strong, full of energy and had young legs.
He was a good offensive finisher at the hoop, all he needed was to add a offensive jumper to his arsenal and he would of been a tough player to defend on offense I think.
He also had all the physical tools to play very tough and tenacious defense and considering we lack big, tough wing defender to guard the Lebrons of the world, Walker would of helped out nicely.
Considering all of the above he was just the type of player the C’s needed this year as are big are slowing down and especially in the future when they retire.
Yes he is built to do the job.
With Pierce ailing and slowing down at his age, it sure could not hurt having Walkers athleticism, muscle and six fouls to throw at Lebron, especially come playoff time.
WOW.. im willing to be there is not one league person who agrees with u..
at this point of his career bill walker has zero chance in covering lebron james
Again thats your view..
I respectively disagree.
I think with his physical build and athleticism he has the tools to guard Lebron better then any body on the Celtics current roster.
Especially since TA and Daniels lack the bulk and muscle to guard Lebron and since Pierce who has the bulk now lacks the mobility and speed to stay with him due to injury and age.
That’s my view at least.
I personally think
ANYONE would have a tough time guarding LeBron haha. But foredscort’s got a point about Walker’s physique and his fouls…I assume, fordescort, that you’re not saying Walker can actually shut James down, for next to no one can, but rather, he appears to have the physical skills and build to be the type of person you would want to at least throw at LeBron. Is that a fair assessment?
You assumed correctly Greg and have given a fair assessment ....
I have already posted its silly to think Walker can stop Lebron since no one can.
I am just saying and will repeat again Walker would be nice to throw on Lebron defensively to slow him down especially in the playoffs considering his athleticism, strong build and the tough tenacious defense I think he can play.
I also take it a step further and say that considering TA and Daniels do not have the bulk, or muscle to guard Lebron and Pierce (who does have the bulk and muscle) but does not have the speed due to injury and age,
I think Walker would do a better job guarding Lebron then all 3 of them.
Thats my opinion at least.
We don't see eye-to-eye on much
But I am so with you regarding Walker and the other young players that Doc refuses to play. So far I ahve seen none of the young players who Doc refused to play have an impact on any other team in the NBA.
????
At this point in time, Bill Walker is just a young kid with the big potential to fail or succeed, but my odometer says he will eventually prosper. Its just sad that Boston is a team for veterans and young guys just will NEVER have a chance in Doc’s system.
Only time will tell if we again committed the same mistake as the Joe Johnson, Chauncey Billups type, or will Bill just be another Gerald Green. Lets not forget that this kid is only 22 and some players with his type of game don’t develop til they are 26 or something. (see Reggie Lewis). But I don’t see him being out of the league the way Gerald put himself into..you can see it in Bill’s demeanor that he will hang around this league and perhaps be a journeyman till he finds a home where he will eventually become a star ( see Chauncey Billlups).
"No I’m not KG. Not at all, but I’m Big Baby Glen Davis from LSU, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I’m not the Big Ticket. I’m the Ticket Stub. Don’t count the Ticket Stub out. You might need the ticket to get in the game, but you leave with the ticket stub, because you’ll never forget this game."
What young talent has doc brought along or played that he wasn’t forced to do so.I thought I did a good job explaining this to some of you supposed C fans ..2006 we had lost all of our bigs and forwards to either injury or trades before that point al and perk didn’t see the floor on anything that could be a consistent basis Doc had no other choice but to play them.Paul went down with injury we finally saw gomes,and when danny decided to tank the season and sat paul we saw gomes al perk and TA play extended minutes .We at the time had also traded or lost most options at pg and two gaurd and had the opprotunity to see delonte.Doc was forced to use these guys he would not have done otherwise and said it out his own mouth.Also Rondo was our only option at pg the start of the 2007 season and Doc was not too happy about that even after we won 17 due in large part to Rondo doc wanted to trade him.Big baby never saw much of the floor until injuries to powe and kg nobody on this site or doc himself knew baby would show up the way he did and we wouldn’t have gotten out of the first round and may have gotten swept by orlando if it wasn’t for rondo and bab.Doc aint a visionary not even close he doesn’t play youth by choice he’ll tell you that himself its not his way.All those situations were forced upon him he had no choice in the matter and if you remember correctly when we were playing the youngsters in 06 we weren’t gettin blew out they were playin hard and in a lot of instances great ball Doc wasn’t even coaching them he was sleep on the bench he wanted nothing to do with it ,he was tanking as well he was letting them play Y ball and we all know Al Gomes Perk DeLonte Powe Tony are all very capable of playing winning ball.The fact is no one is saying walkers gonna be a all star no one is saying that we are all saying too bad we didn’t see more,vecause for all intents since you are such a staunch doc and C supporter and we aint fans answer this .Do the celtics have the number one defense in the league?answer yes Did that so called bum have a better all round game off the bench last night than any of ours answer yes in only his second game and first time on the floor on a new team. Answer yes in real game time not garbage answer yes.Just because some of us don’t like Docs coaching style doesn’t mean we are clamoring for walker or for god sakes gerald green that’s all your ammo gerald green gerald green.If anything that shows Doc doesn’t know because he actually gave that bum time real time anyway don’t matter fact is you like and trust doc I don’t period and I actually haver facts to back me up please don’t let the truth get in the way
by reggie_35 on Feb 24, 2010 12:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I have been asking that question for months
And have still not gotten the name of one young player who Doc refused to play that has had an impact on any other team. It is amazing how deafening the silence is when this question is asked.
Just because to date we have never seen any former players of Doc's
develop into star players after leaving the C’s, does not mean that it will always be the case.
Nobody knows what type of players Hudson and Walker will turn into since they never got real playing time.
Only time will tell us !
but will they blossom in part because of the time they spent here, as bench players?
Playing time is dictated by the needs of the team. Especially on a contending team.
But as far as individual development goes, especially for Walker who spent more time here, practicing for two years with role models like KG, Pierce, et al and being immersed in a veteran, professional and winning environment counts for a lot. Walker was very quick to cite how valuable he feels that experience is going to help him going forward.
Will Doc and his staff deserve any credit for that (if Walker turns into a stud)?
Yes we are going by something that may happen in the future....
because if the players turn out to be great down the line which they easily could, supporters of these kids will be vindicated !
And, it is much easier to ignore the fact that.....
none of the young players no longer with the team, who Doc did not play, have amounted to anything.
Again .........just because those players have not turned out to become solid NBA players
just because those players have not turned out to become solid NBA players, does not mean Walker or Hudson will not.
Its illogical to say hey past players of Doc never turned out to be players so lets not give up on Walker and Hudson also.
We must be fair and give them a chance.
Whats to fear…that wost that can happen is they may turn out to be productive players.
Correct
One big reason we haven’t seen these guys blossom yet… is that they were buried in Boston for so long. Chicken and egg stuff.
nope
this is nothing like the chicken and the egg.. nobody has come out to be any good that doc hasnt played.. its cut and dry.. people with talent play, people who dont have talent dont play.. Seems logical to me
(1) Not enough time has passed
(2) Once poisoned by too many DNPs, it’s hard for ANY player to come back. Takes a new coach with especially acute instincts to see through that. Which is why Boston is such a rookie graveyard.
I simply do not have the blind faith in Doc that you seem to have. I think he has a few serious flaws… and this is one of them.
"its cut and dry.. people with talent play, people who dont have talent dont play"
The Celtics used your exact philosophy pertaining to Chauncey Billups when he was drafted and prematurely thought he had no talent, therefore did not play him and thought he did not belong on the team.
How did that turn out?
Though prematurely making a judgment on Billups was Pitinos fault and not Doc’s its still a perfect example of how you must not pre maturely judge the talent of young players, before they have a chance to get serious playing time and a chance to develop.
Is it possible Doc the Celtics and some fans are prematurely giving up and making the same error with Walker, like was the case with Billups???
I and alot of fans believe it sure is a possibility since we already saw it happen to us the past.
Time will tell if does this time around.
You see its
irrelevant how many teams let a player go.
The point is the C’s by giving up on Billup’s prematurely proves how flawed the philosophy is of passing judgment too quickly on young players before they have a chance to play serious minutes and develop.
Just because alot of other teams also give up prematurely on young players does not make it right.......
or can change the fact the C’s did give up prematurely with Billups and it shows how their is a chance that they may have done the same with Walker.
Again only time will tell.
When that time comes we will also know who is right or wrong regarding this argument.
So until then jbuell719 lets wait and see what happens and in the meantime agree to disagree on this matter.
"Therefore did not play him"
He was in Boston for a little more than half a season, and made 51 appearances, 44 of which were starts. He averaged 25.4 minutes per game as a Celtic.
But why bother with, you know, facts and stuff?
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 24, 2010 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
A fair retort, to be sure
Sadly, there isn’t much for me to say about KU this year. They’re good.
Hopefully, this year’s visit to MIzzou Arena will turn out much like last year’s.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 24, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
glad to be of service
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 24, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Whats your point???
I followed Billups that year and am aware he started alot of games and got minutes with the C’s.
Are saying just because Billups made 51 appearances for the Celtics that the Celtics still did not give up prematurely on Billiups?
Your example proves my point even more which is:
Most young players ( the star ones excluded) may take a couple of years to develop and show us what talents they will eventually develop, as was the case with Billups who took a c few years to blossom.
Walker has not even gotten his feet wet since he has yet to get any serious court time, so lets just give him a chance also.
My point was much simpler than that.
Irrespective of the current argument (though I do think you’ll find Billups and Walker will ultimately have rather differing career arcs), I think it would be outstanding for you to go ahead and not post misinformation on this site.
Whether you’re “aware” of it or not, writing “therefore did not play him” is false and misleading. You have a variety of other points (again, whether I agree with them or not is immaterial), so what’s the need to throw gratuitous fallacy in there? I just don’t get it.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 24, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Are you the post police?
When I wrote "therefore did not play him" if you took it that as if I meant the C’s did not play Billups at all then you were mistaken.
I think most (except for you maybe) ) knew the point I was making was the C’s did not play him since they eventually got rid of him.
Anyway your post is irrelevant to the point I made which is if the C’s gave up prematurely on Billups, which we know the answer is clearly yes.
Now the question we Walker fans are asking is have the C’s done the same to Walker.
As I keep saying time will tell.
Certainly, I'm not the post police
I’m merely an observer of the game who tires quickly of seeing misinformation disseminated.
Playing the semantics game with the phrase “therefore did not play him” seems more than a little ridiculous to me. I didn’t take it to mean “did not play at all.” But giving up on someone quickly (which the Celtics certainly did in Billups, I make no argument against this) and not playing him while he was in town are very different things.
And yes, I think the phrase “therefore did not play him” comes with the connotation of referring to while he was on the team. Otherwise, Doc also doesn’t play LeBron, Kobe or Kevin Durant very much either.
Again, I conceded above that my post was immaterial to your greater point. But thanks for re-emphasizing that.
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 24, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
I agree playing sematic games with my phrase "therefore did not play him" is silly...
but you are the one playing semantic games with my phrase and was the one who brought up this whole silly issue about my phrase in the first place.
You say you would like to see misinformation disseminated, but continue to misinterpret phrases in my posts and make false statements about them.
Once again, you interpreted my phrase above and have accused me that what I meant when I made it was that the Celtics did not play Billups while he was on the team.
Sorry but your interpretation of my phrase is silly and wrong.
(especially since all diehard Celtic fans like me know Billups did get alot of playing time in his rookie year with the C’s since he was one of the big draft picks of Pitino along with Ron Mercer).
I think most understood the connotation of my phrase to mean the C’s did not play Billups …..since they got rid of him and he was no longer on the team.
Its amuzing how apparently you think to know what the connotation of my phrase meant better, then me who actually wrote it.
Its also silly to argue over this minuscule topic when I and others here are having a nice debate on a real issue that is worth debating which is the past and future play of Bill Walker.
Rivers refused to play Gomes and Powe. He only started playing these guys because he HAD to. He had no desire to put those guys on the floor. I can’t say that he developed either of these guys as he really did not think they could play. Then when they started playing, they showed him that he could play.
also
i hate to burst everybody’s bubble but ryan gomes is not that good of a player.. Hes like an 8th or 9th man on a good team
Wouldn't you take Gomes on a team like we have now, though?
I think this C’s team could certainly use a guy like Gomes…But you’re right, he’d rarely, if ever, be your first option. But he actually succeeds because of that. He floats under the radar and grabs rebounds and hits open shots when the defense collapses.
i really dont know
his he any better than daniels?? i really dont know.. i just think his one of those guys that puts up numbers on a bad team..
I honestly think hes actually declined in productivity rather than become a better player.. that may have something to do with his teammates but i was really never that impressed with gomes.
Gomes has changed quite a bit since he’s left the Celtics. So if you havn’t watched him you would not be able to tell how much he’s improved. He was not able to play the 3 when he was here. Now he can, he’s lost weight, gained athleticism and has developed a nice outside shot. Instead of being an undersized 4, he’s turned into a nice big 3.
trust me ive watched him
i completely disagree with ur take.. he may have changed since he came to the wolves but i dont think for the better
I just told you he had no other options but to play any of those guys he never wanted to play al perk gomes baby delonte rondo,and wouldn’t call anything he did developing .he was forced to put people on the floor and hated having to do so ,he has said it out of his own mouth on many occasions he went as far as to say he saw no value in doing so .those are the facts .
by reggie_35 on Feb 24, 2010 12:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
We don't see
What I try to remember – while reading all the posts from my fellow experts/fans, is that when it comes to judging talent, we never really see where the choices are based on. We see a few minutes of garbage time, a few minutes here and there, some highlights from D league, etc. Meanwhile, the people who are actually paid to run the team – the professionals whoese jobs it is to use and develop talent – see these people on a daily basis – in practices. Can we really be sure we know anything better than they do? Can we second guess people who spend a heck of a lot more time with these players than what we are able to see?
I don’t think so…
by bigal_nl on Feb 24, 2010 12:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 24, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
That’s the hiccup here…The coaches and Danny and everyone else obviously saw so much more of Walker than we did. Now sure, PART of it could be Doc not trusting young guys, but Walker also had Pierce and Daniels and in some cases, Tony Allen (who’s contributing this year) ahead of him, and Doc clearly trusts them more, so they were always going to get the call over Walker.
Danny's Plan
Has always been to draft players and develop them to either trade or keep. Walker was a very high pick in the draft and he was used along with House to acquire Robinson who both the Celtic and Knicks considered a very valuable asset.
What do you consider a high draft pick?
2nd round, 47th overall. Considered potential lottery talent, but multiple ACL injuries made him a risk.
Anything in the top 59!
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 24, 2010 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Marcus Landry...
Lets just hope he has the potential that Walker and Giddens seem to posses. Walker is a power house athlete. Whether that will turn him into an all star is up for debate, but at this time, I don’t think it was a wise move to get rid of such a young and healthy player with so much potential especially with having so many vets who are getting hurt a lot. Glad to see him get more minutes with the knicks and I wish both Walker and J.R. the best, but I would rather see him dunk like that in a green and white jersey.
Reggie_35.....
You said Doc didn’t like playing Rondo early in his career. He sure seemed to play him a bit for a rookie, though! Rondo had 20.6 min his rookie year IN NOVEMBER. Where did you get that Doc wanted to trade him? Do you mean that trade rumor last off-season which would have sent Steve Nash here? I’m sorry, I’ll need PLENTY more evidence than that, especially since Danny has more control of that than Doc, anyways. Also, using that argument, since Perkins was in that Warriors rumor, Doc wanted to trade Perkins for Biedrins too, and a lot of people here on CelticsBlog was up for that, especially if it meant getting Ellis.
Rondo’s gamelog his rookie year: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3026&year=2007
Again, a lot of minutes for Rondo for someone Doc didn’t want to play. You sure Doc just didn’t like the fact that Rondo didn’t have a jumpshot, like most people here? I’d love for you to elaborate.
Al Jefferson…what do you mean he didn’t get consistent minutes?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2389&year=2005
He got 13.5 minutes off the bench in November his rookie year. I don’t remember Giddens or Walker or Hudson averaging that much with us. Al averaged at least a dozen minutes every month his rookie year.
Even Ryan Gomes got a lot of playing time compared to Giddens/Walker/Hudson early his rookie year. Yeah, a trade helped him get more playing time in January, and Gomes did get a few DNPs before hand, but not NEARLY as many as Giddens/Walker/Hudson saw when they were here.
And Tony Allen…he averaged at LEAST a dozen minutes per month his rookie year too, with 12.6 in Novembmer.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2367&year=2005
But ok, let’s just say all the young guys ever drafted by the Celtics was never played by Doc just to make your argument about Walker look good, right? The “forced” argument doesn’t work for me when I see most of said young guys getting minutes off of Doc’s bench in the first month of their rookie year.
I guess that “Coach of the Year” award Doc has means nothing to you, which is fine, but don’t say it doesn’t just cause some guys their rookie year didn’t get 29 min per game or something instead of 15 min.
by Tai on Feb 24, 2010 2:29 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Lost and Gained
Eddie was a fan favorite and one on mine as well. He hit big shots and wasn’t afraid to shoot. Fearless, tenacious, high energy….terrible D, can’t do anything but shoot. Best and worst of Eddie. Giddens has no future. Amazing physical attributes with no brain and no confidence. Billy..well, his potential was still up in the air. Flashes of a starter or atleast a good 6th man would sometimes show. I like Billy. In your face dunks and decent yet inconsistant range. Physical. He got so little playing time because of his defense. With all that said we got in return for two guys who don’t play and Eddie who only shoots… Is a young athletic high energy scorer. His D isn’t as bad as eddies, and he can do lots more on offense. He is what our team needed even if I don’t like the guy. It will take some games to Lear our system but until then just let Nate be Nate. We needed a guy to be younger and be able to create shots for himself and others! Hello Nate welcome to Boston. We got what we needed.
Who is Marcus landry?? Anybody?
What are we getting with him?? Can he shoot can he dribble can he post? Who is this guy?what school did he go too? Nobody talks about the throw in!! I want too know about the throw in!! ?? Anybody out there know about him??
Hope he is as good as brother Carl.
24 years old, 6’7" 230lbs rookie who only played 6min/g with the Knicks. Doubt we’ll see much of him this year.
I know zero about Landry
But here’s a thought: Maybe he got so little PT in NY because he plays too much defense. :)
Prose over (virtually) nothing
We hardly know anything about Walker, because Doc never gave him a legitimate shot. Those who say “They, the pros, know better, bla, bla, bla” don’t know either… It’s perfectly likely that Doc simply has a mental block when it comes to playing new/young guys in a rotation full of vets. I.e., that he’s “vet-struck”. There’s no way for you, or any of us, to know one way or the other (though I believe this is a real problem for Doc, since it’s happened several times now with newbies).
So if we don’t KNOW anything, all this over-the-top prose is a waste of time if it’s written about someone like Bill Walker. There are hundreds of kids with “potential” around the country, some in D-League, some on the streets. We gonna wax wistful about all of them?
Just forget about Bill Walker. He was meaningless here (albeit possibly through no fault of his own), and his passing on is meaningless too. I suppose I wish him well, but truth is, I don’t really care one way or the other.
Bill Walker is only a rookie!
Its hard for me to grade a guy on his worth to a team in the long run, when he is only a rookie. MAybe he will grow into a decent player to stick around this league for a long time. Maybe he would have been an integral veteran for this team in about 3 yrs when PP KG RA and RW are all gone. Who knows…my gripe is we gave a no talent dunk artist with no work ethic,(G Green) a couple years, but then we get a hard working ,nba body strength high flyer who could become a top defender a half a yr .
Also i was under the impression that the trade was for House Giddens and a 2nd rounder, then changed to HOuse Giddens and Walker and no 2nd.. but i guess we lost our 2nd rnd pick along with Walker. I thought 3 things were enough for the pint size defender, but we gave 4 ouchh… we got burned on this trade worse than i thought
Weak argument Tai
Doc had a team with ony one set piece – Pierce – when the young guys you mentioned were getting time. Now it is very different for Doc to work in a young guy. It isn’t a pure reflection on the guy. Walker would have probably gotten 12-15 mins per game then because, like today’s Knicks, the team was crap. Ryan Gomes may have stayed nailed to the bench today, just like Walker.
I like the kid. Great high school rep, force in college when healthy, nice mean streak, good quickness, quiet demeanor. I think he’s going to be a player and , yes, I was one of those who hated trading Gerald Greene, so I’m not guru. The Coaches do probably know more than us, don’t you think. So that cuts against keeping him. But he’s 22, signed for cheap money for two more years, could spell an aging vet who needs it more and more.
His is a situation that gives rise to a good debate. But I have a day job. I have to trust in Danny and Doc and so far they haven’t blown any big ones that I can see.
Don't forget how young Walker is
He’s clearly athletic and intelligent with a lot of upside, but a lot of risk due to his ACL injury history. He only played one full season of college basketball (plus six games the previous year).
I’m sad to see Walker leave because of his potential, but I also believe that it is very likely he legitimately needed more development to play the kind of defense the Celtics want and that there was a strong desire to make sure he didn’t turn into a selfish offensive-minded player by keeping his minutes down until he learned to play with the system.
Win now
Win now…hey Bill don’t let the door hit you on the way out cuz if it does you’ll just get hurt again
by Celtico on Feb 24, 2010 4:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Excellent piece, Greg
keep ’em comin…
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
Good riddance
Being in Kansas I followed both these guys and they both suck! Walker might be an ok pro if he was about 3 inches taller. I have no idea what Danny was thinking Giddens was just a wasted pick. Everybody around here knows Giddens will never make it either.
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