New Rumor: Ray Allen for Kevin Martin
by Jeff Clark on Feb 7, 2010 9:46 PM EST
in Rumors
189 comments
Celtics, Allen on trade clock - CBSSports.com
Though team president Danny Ainge has publicly ridiculed the Allen trade reports, several NBA executives told CBSSports.com that the Celtics have been actively trying to parlay Allen's $19.7 million expiring contract into an asset that could keep them in the mix during the upcoming playoffs and also help them for the next several seasons. The most recent inquiry, sources say, involved Sacramento sharpshooter Kevin Martin, who'd be a good fit with Boston's remaining core. Kings officials might be talked out of their reluctance to deal Martin if they could pry a prolific big man out of a third team brought into the discussions or in a separate transaction before the deadline.
The bottom line is that Ainge, who saved his job by pulling off the perfect storm of trades that yielded Allen and Garnett three years ago, has made it clear in private conversations that he's "not going back to the abyss," according to one person familiar with the discussions.
"Danny has said, 'I can't go back to square one where we were prior to the Garnett deal,'" the person said. "At the All-Star break, they’re going to look in the mirror and say, 'Cleveland got better, we can't beat Orlando, and we can't even beat the Hawks. We’re not going to win it this year.'"
I'm officially changing my stance. If you can get a guy like Iggy or Kevin Martin, I say go for it. Trade Ray Allen.
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You are right!
At this point in time, trading Ray Allen couldnt hurt.
Won't hurt?
If you don’t mind not winning a championship this year. Ray Allen is a better shooter than Kevin Martin even this year when Ray hasn’t shot as well as usual. But RA’s FG% is 44 compared to 36% for KM. RA has better all around game and is part of big 3.
by Daveonthecape on Feb 8, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
defintly trading ray wouldnt hurt much
but… kevin martin is a ball hog… he needs the ball and he is not a good passer or team player at all..
I thought
the knock on him was he needed to command MORE shots, especially when he was the best player on sacramento. He’d settle into spot shooter/shooter off picks role very nicely. he’s really efficient…when healthy.
Could Danny trade Ray Allen for Leon Powe?
(Im half joking)
Change....
Welcome to the club Jeff! Something needs to be corrected. You either think that all that’s needed is good health and they will be their in the end or that they never will have good health again because they’re too old now. If it’s the second then Ainge needs to make a change of some sort.
but Ray's health isn't in question
if the point is that we need to make the team more dependably healthy then trading Ray does nothing. He’s been healthy all year – he just plays too many minutes, clearly….
by milt palacio's shot on Feb 7, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
The third alternative is...
That even fully healthy this team realistically cannot win it all. That’s where I’ve been for awhile. I’ll be pleased if Danny can parlay Ray into something that can help us going forward. Once the asset that is Ray’s contract expires, we’ve got only the MLE with which to add to the declining core.
If the story’s true, I’m really glad Danny is thinking this way. Reliving the tail end of the 80s/early 90s would be not be good. Nobody would know that better than Danny. He was there.
actually, no he wasn't
he got shipped out for Ed Pinckney and Joe Kleine before the real decline
End of Feb 89
88 was pretty much like this year, and 89 was clearly worse. The handwriting was on the wall, and Ainge had experienced enough of it to know what it was/would be like.
DO IT DANNY!!!
Ray Ray, (Tony, House or Scal) (and maybe Cash for Ray Buyout) for:
- MARTIN and NOCIONI or UDRIH (I Hope Both)
- Iggy, Dalembert…
- Hinrich, Salmons and Thomas…
Despite the denials...
Ray Allen was, in fact, offered to GS for Monta Ellis…..GS was not interested.
I can anyone deny that this team is too old now?
We need another big! We need a shot blogger/rebounder coming off the bench!
My only real concern with KMart
is his ability to stay healthy. He tends to miss time with random injuries – we have enough of that problem.
But if you could get Udrih in the deal, you have to seriously look at it.
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
Who else is fighting for these trades?
Who’s our competition for these guys? Looks like Danny getting a bidding war going from at least 3 teams.
Why stop there???
Trade Paul Pierce for Chris Paul.
Trade Kevin Garnett for Blake Griffin and Ricky Davis.
Heck Trade the rest of the scrubs for Al Jefferson.
Panic Desperation!!! Do something now, Danny Boy.
Boston Celtics - 2008 World Champions
why would u want Chris Paul….
we have rondo
by WikedCeltsFan7 on Feb 8, 2010 5:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
this is a good move
for now and the future. three way with chicago with ray going to chi (little reluctant to help a rival, but it also helps us, so its ok) tyrus thomas going to SAC, and heinrich and martin coming here. obviously some more salary will have to be sent out, but the deal works and every side gets exactly what they want.
i tend to agree
the thing is that Ray would be great for us off the bench if he signs a much reduced contract next year. But to keep him on the team we forfeit our most valuable trade chip – and clearly this team needs a younger piece.
Iguodola won’t happen because the sixers have to dump Dalembert or Brand along with Iggy
Hinrich and Thomas + a contract filler is decent but it leaves us with a big hole at SG
Kmart + Udrih or Nocioni would be much better, but probably unrealistic because the Maloofs aren’t going to want to give up 2 solid contributors… I guess I haven’t seen enough of Martin to know what his game is like. He seems to shoot well from outside, but have a weak overall game… am I wrong here?
by milt palacio's shot on Feb 7, 2010 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
Is the offense the problem?
I think they have a bigger problem on defense especially looking at the bench. So why would you trade a smart team player like Allen to get an offensive player who will probably only hurt you balance.
The offense IS the problem.
The defense is the best in the NBA. They are giving up only 93.7 pts per game.
The offense, on the other hand has been bleh – middle of the pack. Only 99.2 pts per game.
That’s not good enough to be a championship team. A 5.5 pt differential is just not going to cut it.
Tonight was telling. The problem wasn’t so much that the Magic scored a lot of points – they only scored 96. The problem was the Celtics only scored 89!!!! Including only 11 in the 3rd.
Once again, they got into a funk where the offense stopped moving the ball, wasted time, turned the ball over and kept coming up empty in possession after possession. Very sloppy play.
The bizarre thing is, outside of the 3rd period, the offense was ok. They HAVE the ability to score points. But they seem to just lose it for extended periods. Very frustrating.
The defense is not the problem???
Are you insane?? Defensive wins championship buddy!
Not insane. Paying attention.
We haven’t been losing these games 124-117.
We are losing these games 96-89.
We aren’t scoring enough points. Plain and simple.
I think you are both right
The offfense, however, is a BIG problem. I believe they have only scored 100 points once in the last 11 or 12 games. The defense, however, is also a major issue. They play hard in spurts and really clamp down, but they never seem to be able to get that stop anymore when they need it. The confluence of these two issues is why today’s third quarter might have been one of the 20 worst quarters in Celtics’ history.
They lost it when...
…Orlando committed themselves to defense.
Wow.
I thought I’d at least have to wait till tomorrow morning to hear about this.
Rondo doesn't believe in easy buckets...
Martin - very good offensive efficiency! Questionable defense?
If you check Martin’s stats (disregarding this year), it’s fairly clear that he is an efficient offensive player. 17 points on 11 shots (career averages) is on the high side (contrast Monta Ellis, who needs 14.7 shots for 17-point career average). He’s a good shooter (not Ray Allen in his prime – but neither is Ray) and can erupt at times for 30+ point games. Offensively, he’s not a bad fit. Having an athlete like Iguodala who can run and finish strong at the rim would possibly be a better fit, but Martin’s offensive skills would, dare I say, be an upgrade over 2010 Ray Allen. As a third offensive option, he’s not bad at all.
His defense (size, as well) are the things most concerning to me. That’s why he wouldn’t be my first choice.
Whoever would be used to match contracts would be vital to this year’s success. Nocioni? Scary money for the next two years. Would he be a good addition? I think so.
Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas are tempting (a more real backup pg and some athleticism for the big men). Bu that’s casing in a lot for a guy whose ceiling is known (Hinrich) and a guy with incredible talent / athleticism who has proven to be a headcase and lockerroom distraction.
If only Martin could be had with a flyer on Thomas …
understand but
Ray’s defense was questioned till he got to Boston too – I think they could work with it
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
with that said
I’d also like to get a defensive player, so yeah, I’d think about Nocioni as well
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
if you can get martin without giving up tony allen or marquis, you should be all set with defensive replacements, but i really dont think martin is any worse than ray.
Thing about martin
..is that he doesnt address either of the rally glaring weaknesses: lack of athleticism in the front court and a backup for Rondo. The Thomas-Hinrich deal does but I dont like the formers attitude and the latter’s numbers. Iggy?
I just don't get the idea of addressing a front court 'glaring weakness'
by trading your starting SG.
Are you expecting to get someone for Ray who you will now START in place of KG, Perk or Pierce?
And who will you now start at SG?
I would like the trade Ray Allen for Tyrus, and Hinrich. I think if we could get Salmons as well it would be even better. Ray, Glen Davis and Eddie House for Tyrus Thomas, Hinrich, and Salmons? I would have to check the trade machine but i would accept that on the Celtics side, Tyrus would provide our need for Boards, Hinrich would provide what eddie did + better ball handling and passing. Salmons would probably replace Ray (which is a downfall) but we’d prolly have a pretty sharp team next year.
PG: Rondo/ Hinrich
SG: Salmons/ Tony Allen
SF: Pierce/ Daniels
PF: Garnett/ Thomas
C: Perkins/ Wallace
Possibly, just possibly, we could get a high-caliber player off the bench for cheap, but for the most part, were screwed going into next year if something doesn’t shake up. Either Leave Ray and sign him next year for cheap and Pierce opts in and out then maybe if thats possible, keep everything. But i haven’t seen much of K-Mart play, his stats seem to prove hes all that, would he provide what we think he really could?
"Victory belongs to the most Preserving" - Napoleon
"The teams that do the best job of putting personal agendas aside are the successful teams. It's not easy. That's why it's hard being a good teammate, but everyone has that choice." - Ray Allen
by AiTheLAviTiCuS#21 on Feb 7, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
Andres Nocioni
2009-10 Statistics
PPG 8.9 RPG 3.00 APG 1.0 EFF + 7.65
proposal
Ray and Glen Davis for Martin, Noc., and some bench scrub to make salaries work (don’t know their roster well enough to figure out who)
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yg26dnc
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
The three names I'd look at...
… are Martin, AI2, and Jason Richardson. I don’t have much interest in Ellis.
Of course, in an ideal world the team that acquires Ray then buys him out, and we sign him for the playoffs.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
if Minny gets desperate for cash
I’d take Al Jefferson too – hey, I can dream can’t I?
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
Of all the options flying about, Martin is the one I think that fits best with the Celtics
for two reasons.
Primarily basketball – Martin is a very good perimeter shooter and as a starter would provide similar spacing to what Ray provides, which is important for the rest of the offense. He can also play off the ball. Iike Iggy as an overall basketball player – he’s an incredible athlete, but despite being an inch shorter than Martin, Iggy plays more like a SF than a SG – his game is best when he’s slashing to the hoop. We already have that in the starters in Pierce and Rondo and on the bench in Daniels & TA.
Secondarily for financials – Martin’s contract would expire at the same time as KGs – freeing up a ton of cash freedom. Iggy’s is just too long of a contract for my tastes.
I don’t want Monta Ellis at all. Bad mix.
Most of the proposed Hinrich trades don’t make any sense to me from a basketball sense.
Agree with all that, except that K-mart's contract is one year longer than KG's according to Trade Machine
by KY Celts fan on Feb 7, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm... i see I'm off by one year on KM
Still, its a lot shorter than Iggy’s. And still works better as part of an overall sustainable plan.
If Kings were interested, this probably would have happened already. I seriously doubt we are JUST NOW inquiring about Kevin Martin.
is it still possible to get iggy?
im not so sure about the Kevin Martin trade… resigning ray with a reasonable contract could be huge for the Cs in the future
by friedgreentomatoes on Feb 7, 2010 10:47 PM EST reply actions
maybe
but if the Suns will give them Amare, I think we’ve been outbid
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
argh... thanks for the reply
what if we gave them perk + ray for D and iggy? i thought philly would be happy to get rid of D;s contract as well… would you do that?
I love perk but I am thinking that resigning perk next summer probably will not be an easy thing for ainge…its probably going to be costly.. oh and his shoulder injury..
by friedgreentomatoes on Feb 7, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
yesterday I'd say no way
today, I’m thinking about it
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
iggy
is a much better 3 than a 2. he wouldnt blend well with slashers in rondo and p2. we’d have ONE starter who can consistanly shoot the ball. no thanks, I’d take martin.
They are all “dream” trades. Boston isn’t the team holding up a trade for Martin, Iggy or Deng. Boston would do this in a heartbeat.
For the record, I’d probably want Deng most… Iggy 2nd… Martin 3rd. I’d be ecstatic with any of em. Doubt Boston has a chance for any of them.
Zero interest in moving Ray for Hinrich.
I understand what you think from the Bulls/Kings/Sixers' perspective...
…but I dunno if Danny before was willing to trade Ray Allen away to any of these teams just yet, either. When he denied wanting to trade Ray on that radio interview (or wherever it was), I think at the time, even if it was at the back of his mind to actually pull the trigger, he was indeed just shopping. Right now, at this point, I’m willing to buy that he really wants to trade Ray now.
We’ve got 11 days to see if anything will happen. That’s an eternity, as far as I’m concerned. Pau Gasol was probably a dream trade to Laker Nation, ok?
Never say never.
Decent.
Sounds like a decent deal. Martin’s offensive numbers look acceptable; I think in general we are overrating defense. The team seems to need someone who can finish baskets… I hear the same incorrect logic from Doc “we played like crap… Defense wasn’t there”. (Are we talking the same high-to Celtics?) Pierce started the season well, but no longer can the Celts rely on him to consistently take the ball inside. (Look how Vince Carter keeps stabbing the C’s… it kills me).
I don’t think you can defend against a good jumpshot (or the type of perimeter game the Magic started burying Boston with today).
What really makes me frustrated is watching Boston play like a true team (look at all these assists), but not being able to keep playing hard through the 3rd. The team is still fun to watch but it’ll be great if some value can be extracted from Ray…. hopefully not too many long-term overpaid players become part of the system.
I was thinking about this very trade at work today
After the game, I had to go to work. I was mad about the loss, and the store of was dead because of some sport event, ya know, the PuppyBowl on Animal Planet. So I had a lot of time to think. The way this team played today, we have no chance of winning anything. So Ray for K-Mart and Andes would be just fine with me. Won’t win us anything this year, but a backcourt of Rajon and K-Mart spells some success for the future.
This pains me to say because I’ve held out on the team for so long, but this game was like a glass of ice-water in my face.
Thats not happening. lol
"Victory belongs to the most Preserving" - Napoleon
"The teams that do the best job of putting personal agendas aside are the successful teams. It's not easy. That's why it's hard being a good teammate, but everyone has that choice." - Ray Allen
by AiTheLAviTiCuS#21 on Feb 7, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Doc isn't the problem
Though I’m sick of his “Oh well” attitude after every loss.
by KY Celts fan on Feb 7, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
Regarding Doc
I think he just plays dumb for the media sometimes… It seems that he runs a tough practice and really drives the team. I’ll just echo what I’ve heard from ya’ll: play the young guys when the game is winnable. I haven’t seen TA produce lately, then again I wasn’t paying close attention to him.
You really think so?
Maybe I should try to figure out the culture of the team better. Coach T is the real secret behind the D (and from what I interpret as the championship philosophy). I know the Ubuntu could be media spin…. so the boys don’t respect Doc?
Coach T is the reason why the team won that championship
Doc does VERY LITTLE for this basketball club.
What evidence do you have of this?
-sw
Growing up in the Weinman household, you learn two rules very quickly if you aspire to reach double-digits in the years-of-age category: Hate thy Knick, hate thy Yankee.
Go Celtics, Go Dodgers. -sw
by Steve Weinman on Feb 8, 2010 5:59 AM EST up reply actions
Sac doesn't want to trade Martin for cap room
I don’t even think this trade is debatable. If the Kings were willing to do it, Boston would have to do it. Kevin martin is just a 7 year younger version of Ray right now.
But the Kings as recently as two days ago said they weren’t moving K-Mart for cap room, “League sources say the Kings continue to tell inquiring teams that they have no interest in moving Kevin Martin, especially in scenarios intended solely to create salary cap space by freeing them of his contract.”
It’s unlikely to happen. This is less of a trade rumor and more of a “trade idea”. “Kings officials might be talked out of their reluctance to deal Martin if they could pry a prolific big man out of a third team brought into the discussions or in a separate transaction before the deadline.” … essentially the writer is saying that the Kings would maybe start getting interested if they could land Amare in a threeway. Doubt the Suns want Ray Allen for Amare.
and if the Suns want Ray Allen for Amare… i say we just trade Ray for Amare and figure the rest out later.
Agreed, play perk off the bench. xD (this is ridiculous, what are we to do???)
"Victory belongs to the most Preserving" - Napoleon
"The teams that do the best job of putting personal agendas aside are the successful teams. It's not easy. That's why it's hard being a good teammate, but everyone has that choice." - Ray Allen
by AiTheLAviTiCuS#21 on Feb 7, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
You can't believe what management says to the media
It’s all politics with them. But the fact with the Kings is that they are burning through money fast, don’t have a large fanbase to support them, and there has even been rumors of moving the team. Martin and Evans don’t play well together, and dumping Martin could open up possibilities for them in the offseason.
by KY Celts fan on Feb 7, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
sadly, the talent is there but the effort is lacking. that’s the frustrating piece.
what pops into my head is that prior to the current “big 3” when we had the youth movement, most people here were screaming for vets because they would know how to close out games once they built a lead. The only difference now is the level of frustration is greater because we know they know how to do it, they’re just choosing to be lazy and not do it. At least the youth could be forgiven to an extent because they were still learning. At least that group was hungry for wins. Pity we can’t say the same about this current bunch.
Seems we got what we asked for with the vets. Just should have asked for the desire to close out games too.
Danny doesn't have the guts to trade Ray Allen
I would be shocked if he did. All these trade senarios sound great, but Danny will not trade Ray!
totally disagree with that comment
Danny is one of the few GMs that DOES have the guts for something like this
track record speaks for itself
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
Ainge shouldn't trade Ray Allen.
I think the problem is in the frontcourt. Perkins is playing an on average good season but that’s it. Wallace hasn’t turned out to be the big addition everybody (including me!) thought. Ainge gambled on letting Powe go because Glen Davis played brilliant in the playoffs last year but has disappeared completely. And last but not least (and it hurts) but KG is not up to his standard after last years injury. And I am beginning to doubt if he will ever be. Next to that there is no good backup for Pierce. So what the C’s need is a defensive player who can also shoot 3’s to backup Pierce and a good rebounding power forward. Question is, what are they willing to give up.
That deal Is a Killer Cap Wise
I just don’t see it due to cap issuesm course I don’t know who else fills the cap numbers from Sacto (Love Noc but his cap # would be a killer for the next 2 years). I think we are better with the Chicago deal if that is available. Scal/Allen for Heinrick/Thomas/James. We save about $6 mil this year and with James coming off we are about the same next year. Or we also have James who is an expiring contract( plus other expiring contract that can be dealt immediately for something maybe a player and/or a 1st Rd pick.
I think if we are going to trade Ray we really need to hit it big to restock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So....
I’ve been thinking about this for a few hours now. The last few weeks, I’ve been on the “they’re in a funk, keep Ray around, they’ll be fine” side of this argument. Not only because I love Ray as a player, but also because I thought trading Ray would piss off a lot of the players/coaches and ruin chemistry.
But after watching today’s game, my immediate reaction was, “this team really has NO chemistry right now anyway, nobody besides Rondo plays like they’re awake, and the jolt that it will take to get back the urgency they sorely lack might only be attained by trading Ray.”
I let it sit for awhile thinking it might have just been a reaction to an awful game and that I’d change my mind. But after reading a few posts, I don’t think its a real coincidence that seemingly all of us Ray apologists pretty much had the same epiphany at the same time.
It makes me sad cause Ray really seems like a great guy and a class act but at this point, DA has to pull the trigger on a deal if it gets us a package involving Hinrich or Martin and a couple other pieces.
Who knows, maybe if Ray is serious about wanting to retire a Celtic, he’ll come back for cheap in free agency and be a nice weapon off the bench or insurance if somebody gets banged up.
P2 is the man.
For me, no epiphany on Ray
It’s the team as a whole that seems obviously not championship caliber. Ray happens to be the guy with the big expiring contract. Ray’s game has dropped off a little each of the last couple of years. Perfectly natural. KG’s game has taken a nose dive. PP is not as good as he was two years ago. Nope, it’s Ray’s contract that makes him the object of all these trade proposals.
Valid point
I probably wasn’t clear enough in my post. I don’t think Ray is the problem at all; I do think his contract seems to be the only legitimate vehicle towards a solution to the problem.
P2 is the man.
I disagree Jeff...
Danny’ can thank his friend Kevin McHale for his track record. Without that friendship that trade does not happen!
That's not the point. The point if that DA was willing to do it in the first place.
by KY Celts fan on Feb 7, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
Ainge wanted the trade. He was willing to trade Jefferson, just like he is willing to trade Ray. Now, can he find someone to trade with, that’s a different story. (btw, to hear Larry Bird tell it , or read it, McHale didn’t want to make the trade but was forced to).
re: Danny's track record
my point is that he’s bold enough to try anything
- see Gary Payton
- see Antoine Walker, multiple times
- see Allen Iverson (multiple attempts)
- see Stephon Marbury
- see Ricky Davis
the list goes on
he’s anything but timid
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
I don't think ray is the problem...
I know he’s the only trading piece we really have but keeping him this year is okay, and moving him to the bench for a low salary (which he has already agreed to), could be a great scenario for the next 3 years. The Celtics need a new mindset, they are still capable of winning postseason games.
by BostonThreeParty on Feb 7, 2010 11:24 PM EST reply actions
But if we can trade him for Martin, the bring him back for the bench next year, than it's win-win
by KY Celts fan on Feb 7, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Believe me ky...
I’m hoping that Im wrong and that Danny does pull the trigger on a trade.
However...
Having some sense to trade young players for an allstar is one thing. Having the guts to straight a future hall of famer is another.
Buddy, I know you’re knew here, but if you could use that little REPLY button, it makes these conversations a lot easier to follow.
by KY Celts fan on Feb 7, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
Hall of Fame Players...
…get traded all the time. Wilt, Kareem, Barkley, Moses, KG, Ray….
Kevin Martin
Kevin Martin’s injury history……..SCARES ME!!!!!!
Number of Games played by Kevin Martin over the past 4 years:
06-07: 80 games
07-08: 61 games
08-09: 51 games
09-10: only 17 games thus far.
And his contract runs 4 more years, that doesn’t look assuring to me
Interesting point
We brushed off Quis’s injury history too in the offseason, and history repeat itself.
I’d rather not have four years of KG-esque paranoia.
by KY Celts fan on Feb 7, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
I still prefer Iguadala
He’s a year younger, not to mention a lot more durable. But i’d pull the trigger on either player.
I like Iggy too.. but you really need a shooter out there to space the floor.
Esp in the backcourt with Rondo. Iggy is really a slasher, we have that in Rondo and Pierce. If you add another slasher to the mix, our offense would struggle.
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
Ainge Should Make Three Trades
1. Ray Allen for Kevin Martin and Filler
2. Pierce for Iguodala and Kapono
3. Garnett for Amare Stoudemire
It’s simply a question of when everyone has seen enough.
I´m afraid you´re right
if we realize we can´t go any longer with this team, then we have to think about a completely new direction, everything else is just not consequent
this type of post is a waste of time
1. salaries don’t match.
2. the defensive mentality is gone. you’ve got 3 guys (out of 5 acquired) – martin, kapono, and amare – that are awful defenders.
3. no one would make those trades.
Surprised by the fans
Trading for the sake of trading never works, and that is exactly what this is in my opinion. Kevin Martin may be better than Ray next season, but I don’t see an upgrade this season there. Bringing a guy in and expecting him to gel with this team on and off the court in such little time is unfair.
Everyone is using Ray as the scapegoat here, and it is unfortunate. It’s certainly not his best season by far, but he is still very valuable to this team, moreso as a player than as a contract.
And what is so good about Martin? This is a guy who has been injured every season he has been in the league except one. Is that the type of player we want on this team? His numbers this season are far from impressive. Come on…
Follow me @jimmy_toscano
Ray isn't the scapegoat, he's just the most valueable trade piece
We all love Ray and the effort he puts forth each night. But the guy has gotten older, his huge contract is expiring, and this team doesn’t have what it takes to win anymore. They have the talent, it’s a matter of drive, which they don’t have. We have no one in the wings to take over next year, so since we aren’t going to win anything now, let’s do something that benefits the future.
by KY Celts fan on Feb 8, 2010 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
No one is using Ray as a scapegoat, at times he's been our most consistent player
But this team needs some new blood – something to inject some life into this squad. It just so happens that Ray’s contract is an attractive trading piece. KG is virtually unmovable because of the amount of $ owed to him. Pierce will retire a Celtic. And Rondo is the future.
Also keep in mind if we don’t trade Ray, he will expire at the end of the season and we will have nothing to show for it. No question this team needs some youth to keep from falling back into oblivion in the near future and moving Ray is our best opportunity until KG’s contract expires.
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
Both of you are already throwing this season away?
If you’re throwing the season away, then yeah trading Ray is the answer. But seeing as today was the first game all season that we had a full roster, I’m not throwing in the towel yet.
But why Martin? Hard to believe anyone on this blog, myself included, has seen Martin play, aside from on sportscenter. His numbers dont jump out at me, and he doesn’t improve this team. The only numbers that do jump out at me are the games played numbers. The guy is a walking injury. He’s not a consistent player by any means.
Assuming that trading Ray will “spark” the team is a nice thought, but doesn’t hold any water.
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by Jimmy Toscano on Feb 8, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
I have actually seen Martin play
before his broken wrist, he was averaging 30.6 pts a game. He’s struggled some since he’s gotten back, but looks to be rounding into shape again.
I think Martin would be a good fit because he can provide that same floor spacing as Ray. He’s had his injury struggles, but I def wouldn’t write the guy off.
As far as throwing this season away, I’ve been as anti-trade as anyone on the board and in the forums. But at some point, you have to look at the team for what it is – look past the sentimental. These guys don’t have the fire to win right now and as Doc himself said, it gets harder to flip that switch on and off as time goes on. Right now, we can possibly salvage this season and bring in some youth to help with the post Big Three transition. We have to look at all possibility realistically.
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
And I'm not really sure what "numbers" you were looking at for KMart
but in 07-08 in 61 games, he averaged 23.7 pts whie hitting 40% from 3pt range.
In 08-09 he appeared in 51 games and averaged 24.6 pts, while going 42% from behind the arc. The dude can flat out score.
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
30.6 pts a game over 5 games, 4 of which he took 19+ shots per game in... come on
His numbers after his surgery are much more telling of the type of player he is. He has never in his career averaged more than 4.5 rebounds or 3 assists per game, and the last sample of an entire season we can take dates back to the 06-07 season. He is having his worst 3-pt shooting season since his second season in the league. He is averaging less than 17pts a game since his return from the injury. Of the 17 games he has played in this season, he has been a part of two wins, one against the Nets which I will admit was an insane game by him, and one against the Warriors in which he was terrible.
But this is the player that will keep up competitve this year and in the future…
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by Jimmy Toscano on Feb 8, 2010 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
He has never in his career averaged more than 4.5 rebounds or 3 assists per game
For the last 2 seasons (since he’s been a Celtic) Ray Allen has only average 3.6 rebounds and 2.9 assists per game… so yea… not really sure what your point is.
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
Not saying that Ray has better numbers than Martin
Martin, being the go-to guy on that team, will have better numbers than Ray will. Two players in two different systems. But Ray knows this system well, why bring in an injury-prone guy that is a) not familiar with anyone or anything about this team and b) most likely not 100% recovered from his injury?
Like I said, it’s a trade for the sake of making a trade. I get it. People don’t like what they see and want to see something, anything, change. You don’t really improve this team by making this trade in my opinion. You lose a leader in the locker room and a guy that the younger players look up to. And in return you get a player who will probably give you about the same numbers, but lacks the intangables.
You still have a problem at backup pg, you still have an issue at the PF/C position.
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by Jimmy Toscano on Feb 8, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
You still have a problem at backup pg
It’s not out of the question that the C’s can try to get Martin packaged with Beno Udrih for Ray Allen. The money would certainly work. We’d get an actual Point Guard to provide back-up minutes. And you get a shooter who can space the floor with Rondo in the backcourt.
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
Kevin Martin is shooting .383% from the field... that is downright ugly
To put that into perspective, the only player with a worse fg% on the Celtics is Scalabrine. Ray Allen is shooting .453% from the field, no where near as bad as Martin.
What kind of shooter has such a bad fg% like Martin does? It’s one thing to take a lot of shots and hit them, but a quick look at his game log and its not the case.
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by Jimmy Toscano on Feb 8, 2010 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
He's coming back from a broken wrist. Any shooter coming back from that would struggle.
The previous 2 seasons, he’s averaged 46% and 42% respectively.
Meanwhile, Kmart is averaging 38% from behind the arc – rust and all. Ray is down to 34% this season, down 6 percentages points from last season. In fact, his numbers in the categories you mentioned earlier (rebounds and assists) are at their lowest point in his career since his rookie season.
Ray is a great guy, and by all accounts, a strong locker room presence but he’s not getting any younger. I love the guy too and I’d like to keep him around, but we need some youth on this team. If not Martin, than maybe Iggy (but he’s more of slasher and I wouldn’t be thrilled about him in the backcourt with Rondo).
Don't Trade Rondo or Perk!
im not against trading ray for right players
But I don’t see Martin being the right player. Like you said, he’s coming back/struggling from a wrist injury. Why do we want to deal with that issue right now?
I’d take igoudala over martin because we could use that athleticism on this team. Martin just comes across as being soft.
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by Jimmy Toscano on Feb 8, 2010 1:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Thank you RJ87 and Jimmy Toscano
Nice debate, I really enjoyed it.
He's a SG. Rebounds and Assists aren't really what they're known for.
Especially when you play on such a crappy team as the Kings. Who was he supposed to pass to to get that assist?
by KY Celts fan on Feb 8, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, I agree
Yeah , I agree, I’m not so sure Kevin Martin would change the way this team is playing. I don’t think he would be that spark.
The thing that this team is having trouble with has nothing to do with player personnel.
The problem is desire and effort (obviously injuries played a role as well).
I the kind of spark this team needs, is to have a mass meeting between the team and the living legends (Bill Russell, Couz, Hondo, etc.), and let the legends let them no how disappointed and troubled by the sight they have been seeing on the court lately.
I want Bill Russell all up in Rasheeds ear
Lack of athlticism (and too much age) causes losing (esp. fading-in-the-stretch type of loing). Losing dampens desire. They do not need lectures from Russell and Cousy. They need fresh legs, not necessarily 22 year old legs but definitely less than 34 year old legs.
by BouncingBuckeye on Feb 8, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like Danny is panicking...
Still plenty of time for the C’s to get it right, the talent is here, trading Ray, especially for an injury prone player like Martin, doesn’t improve this team at all, it would actually make worse.
I hope Ray stays a Celtic and Danny doesn’t panic before the deadline but I fear that he will do a stupid move…
Sounds like Danny is making a reasoned assessment of his team
And figuring out if moving an expiring asset is a good idea. I don’t see even a hint of panic.
it would be very hard to argue against Martin for Ray....
from either a business or basketball perspective.
as players, the comparison is really not close at this point in their careers.
A big man is needed
Trading Ray won’t help unless you can get a first-rate big man. Garnett is just another player—at least for this year. The Sheed signing was Ainge’s biggest mistake. Someone in the organization with cajones and authority should admit this and eat Sheed’s contract.
Ray gets traded plus Doc has to go, too.
As much as we love Ray, the C’s are treading water and just trying to stay afloat. I do not blame the big 3 for conserving energy BUT I do blame Doc for not using the bench properly and I really mean to emphasis Bill Walker here.
Doc has also gone on record, after losing games, stating that he has no idea why the games keep going downhill in the 2nd half. At this point in the season, I do not believe that Doc can get the best focus and effort out of this team.
Danny needs to fire Doc and take over as coach for the rest of the season. No other move will light the fire under the loafing players, who are just not getting the point that they lack focus and effort.
As a Kings Fan
We’re not interested in Ray Allen. We’d like to find a good young big to pair with Spencer Hawes and Jason Thompson, and we’re willing to give up Martin and Nocioni as we have an excess of 2s and 3s. So you’d need to find a third team to make this deal work.
Martin is a good scorer, excellent three point shooter and free throw shooter, but he’s not much of a crunch-time scorer. He’s also average or below average on defense, passing, dribbling, etc., and his durability is questionable.
Nocioni has been effective in spots for the Kings, but is expendable due to his contract and the emergence of Donte Greene and Omri Casspi at the 3.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 8:00 AM EST reply actions
The idea isn't necessarily that Ray is your final answer
but he’d give you a ton of cap relief this summer with which to go out and sign a FA big to pair with Hawes and Thompson.
We don't want to tie up a lot of salary in a big, either.
And some fans would rather be FA players in 2011, when salaries might be cheaper.
It’s also tougher to attract FA bigs when you are in rebuilding mode. So you might end up with a pile of cash and nobody to spend it on.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Just Curious
In your view, would your team have any interest in Tyrus Thomas if we got the Bulls involved?
Yes
There is some interest in Tyrus Thomas. Young, athletic, some shot blocking ability, could be decent fit with Hawes and JT, and cheaper than the other options as well.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
i'll reiterate my trade idea involving the sixers and the kings
the kings may not be interested in ray, but they could be interested in this:
A similar version of that trade
without involving the Celtics is making the rounds at SactownRoyalty. If I recall correctly, it’s Martin/Nocioni/Thomas for Iggy/Daly. Outside of the concerns of taking on Iguodala for five years, there’s generally support for the deal according to a poll taken recently. It would definitely shore up our defense and give some of our younger guys like Casspi and Greene more opportunities to emerge.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Actually it was
Martin, Thomas and Sergio Rodriguez. The poll was better than 2-1 in favor.
"The basis for winning an NBA title is having a superstar in his prime. Not an all-star, or a bunch of all-stars, but a superstar."
by coolcatreportdotcom on Feb 8, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
the question should be: for Iggy or Kevin Martin
I wouldn’t take Martin, because he didn’t seems to be athletic enough and maybe is to slow against other 2guards like Kobe or DWade. Iggy is still my vote overall (if it is possible at all), but Kevin Martin is still better than Ray Allen…
I asked god and he said: L.A. will lose again next year!! ^_°
This Year It Doesn't Matter
This year they are not winning a title no matter what they do. They won’t win with Kevin Martin, either.
From a basketball perspective, the problem isn’t Ray Allen. The problem is Garnett and Pierce, neither of whom is playing well. Pierce had no business trying to play yesterday. A second factor is the lack of a decent backup to Rondo who can keep the offense flowing.
So we’re really looking toward next year. Ray has value now, but after February 19 he is worth nothing. I doubt if there is a single team out there that would play him more than the MLE if he becomes a free agent.
Maybe with some younger blood they can contend next year if Garnett’s knees come around and Pierce can stay injury free. Those are two huge “ifs” but it is better than nothing.
If I were Ainge I’d be looking to trade all three of them, but I doubt if you could get much for Pierce or Garnett.
Basically agree.
As to Danny trading Pierce and Garnett and their value, it’s basically the same situation as Ray. PP and Garnett have their greatest value as they expire, so next year PP, the year after, Garnett and Wallace.
Just imagine
Just imagine how the next two years with Sheed will be, even worse than the years with Scal who at least wasn’t a negative influence.
by Celtsfansince55 on Feb 8, 2010 11:28 AM EST reply actions
If this plays out like it might, it could get ugly
If Danny determines that the team as constituted isn’t really a legit contender, and if he trades Ray for younger talent this year, and possibly PP next year, the torch will have surely been passed, and we’d still have Garnett and Wallace on the books for one final year. Can you really see Wallace being a good team first guy and going along with whatever’s good for the team. I can’t. I think he’ll be a royal pain in the rear end. Would not surprise me at all if Wallace is nowhere around the team in the last year, even though he’ll be getting paid.
inside strength
This team also needs better inside play and rebounding not just a Ray Allen replacement. KG and Perk are not getting it done anymore.
Perkins
I would also trade Perkins in the right deal.
No
I would also want Speights or Holiday if I’m giving up Perkins.
everyone but rondo??
you have proposed trading every starter, save rondo. the Cs still have one of the top 4 starting 5s in the league. why trade 4 of 5 guys?
it seems like all of your suggestions/proposals are made in a vacuum called “we’re not going to win this year.”
Howard would go for 40 and 20
Three key words, “the right deal”
Sheed
Perkins is a keeper. He will play better if we can dump Sheed. Perk is probably looking over his shoulder every time down the court wondering when Doc is going to pull him for Sheed. Cannot help his confidence much. Plus, Perk is so intense that he must resent Sheed’s seemingly casual attitude. If I were Doc, get another big and sit Sheed at the end of the bench. If he complains, cut him. That would send a message to the vets, Perk and Rondo that he is serious about preserving team unity and chemistry, as well as win now. And make Ray the 6th man with Daniels as the starter. Use TA more to spell Pierce. Also, Ray seemed to pick up his scoring a bit after Danny had that talk with him and his wife about not trading him. I have a feeling Ray knows he is not going anywhere. Instead, I think we are going to see some decisions made regarding BBD and Sheed.
All this trade Ray talk is nonsense!
You guys want to keep the following:
Wallace – fat, out of shape, 3 point chucking machine and his defense has been suspect lately
Crybaby Davis – has issues and needs a therapist. not playing anywhere near his playoff performance
S. Williams – when was the last time he stepped on the court?
Giddens – may work for someone else but not in Boston
Walker – hanging out with Sheldon on the bench or is he in the NBDL?
Ray Ray puts his heart and soul into the game and is dedicated to this team. He doesn’t go out and get his thumb broken by a friend’s face. He isn’t up to his neck in Techs. He’s healthy and a team player.
Hinirich and Salmons are more headaches waiting to happen.
Shop Smart! Shop S-Mart!
trade ray does not equal keep others
for the record, i’m not in favor of trading ray.
that said, i haven’t read anyone make an impassioned defense of wallace, davis, shelden, giddens or walker. ray’s contract is an asset. the guys that you listed, in contrast, are hard to trade because of their contracts. i think you’d find a lot of people on this board who would trade sheed and big baby … you just won’t find many GMs interested.
If Danny feels a trade is the only solution...
I think Iguodala/Lou Williams is a better fit for the C’s. Iggy can guard athletic wings, rebound and shoot. He is not the shooter Ray is, but he’s good enough that you can’t leave him. Lou Williams would be a decent backup for Rondo.
That deal works under the Trade Machine & would give the C’s fresh legs and maybe take some pressure off of PP, KG & Rondo to do everything.
KMart is definitely a better offensive player, but his history of injury, slight build and lack of D doesn’t do much for the C’s.
I do think that getting everyone healthy will help the C’s get out of this funk, but I trust that Ainge and Doc know what Ray is looking for going forward and if they think he’s worth a 2 yr 20 million dollar deal. They also know if KG is really healthy and the extent of Pierce’s injury.
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