Can You Spare Some Change?
by Jeff Clark on Mar 11, 2010 8:02 PM EST
in Boston Celtics News & Links
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PrintFrustrated Doc Rivers mulls changes - BostonHerald.com
"We’ve been reluctant to make many changes with our rotations and stuff like that," he said after last night’s 111-91 loss to Memphis. "Maybe we have to think about that. Maybe not, but we have to think about it, because right now we’re just sketchy. We’re not playing consistent." This constitutes a significant step for Rivers and is a measure of his own frustration with the Celts. "Yeah, but, you know, I’m slow to change," he said. "I think consistency is better, but I think at times you do have to think about it. I’m not a big believer in change for change. If it’s not going to be a long change, I think that’s a waste of time personally." The coach will have ample time to consider the possibilities. Coming off a back-to-back, the Celts will not practice today.
So, what changes would you make? More Shelden Williams? Smallball? Big lineups?
It would have sounded crazy 3 months ago, but what about making a change to the starting lineup? Maybe bring Ray off the bench (with Daniels starting)?
The trade deadline is gone and there's no more help coming off the waiver wire. If this team hopes to right the ship, the answers will have to come from within.
I'm sure several of the responses on this will be of the "nothing you can do, we're doomed" variety, but what fun is that? Put yourself in Doc's shoes and see if you can suggest something (anything) that would snap this team out of its funk. Feel free to be creative.
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it's time
to lessen the major player’s minutes and get minor players more minutes
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
I honestly don't think any change to the starting lineup will help....
Not to sound negative, but the problems with this team are so broad (lack of rebounding, lack of consistent defensive intensity, careless turnovers,lack of athleticism) I just don’t know any diamond in the rough from the bench who can right this ship. Certainly not Marquis Daniels.
starting 5 doesn't matter
like KG said, it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish -
the can tinker and all that -
but in the end, the need to reduce the minutes KG, PP, RA play so that they’ll be as healthy as possible for the playoffs -
if they wind up the 6th seed, so be it -
a HEALTHY squad can hang with anyone -
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
tommy h said in the broadcast their having chemistry problems
even if they do reduce the minutes that doesnt neccesarily fix their in game cohesion.
malcontents....the lot of you
First off
I would stop gassing Rondo in the 1st half. Too many times this season, I’ve seen Doc play Rondo for most of the 1st half, meaning the backup PG hadn’t really gotten a chance to get into the flow of the game, we see a huge 3rd quarter dropoff and Rondo seems lethargic in the 4th. Stop bringing in Nate to play with Rondo, he should replace him.
Playing Shelden more than BBD isn’t going to be a significant change, unless Doc rotates them in based on what kind of team we have out there. If shooters that can spread the floor are out there, Shelden may make more sense, while BBD can bring energy to a smaller lineup that looks to push. Doc says he likes consistency, but I’m not seeing much consistency in regards to his lineups. There isn’t a 2nd unit that has the kind of rapport that we enjoyed in ’08.
I think we need to bring Ray off the bench. Nate was supposed to be the offensive spark, but we also need him to backup Rondo and initiating (not running) the offense AND shouldering the scoring load is too much to ask, especially from a player unfamiliar with our system. Ray can play with any lineup because of his ability to shoot from anywhere on the court. The only problem with starting Quis with Rondo is that we’re left without a shooter for the 1&2 spots. The upside is that we have two guys that can get to the basket and open up shots for KG and PP, not to mention putting pressure on opposing defense by racking up early fouls.
There is simply no room for Scalabrine in the rotation. I’m tired of hearing how “smart” he is when he’s making dumb play after dumb play and racking up fouls by simply grabbing players that fly by him. We’re good at the 4 and Finley gives us another option at the 3 (he’s not quick enough to play the off guard anymore).
Finally, realizing a change is necessary is a huge step for Doc. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. But if it is? I mean what do we have to lose with giving Nate the green light with the 2nd unit and shaking up the starting lineup a little? Blown out by Memphis at home, losing to one of the worst teams in NBA history, and not beating any of the elite teams consistently? Been there done that, and I’m here to tell you – it’s not fun for anybody.
give nate the green light
shake up the starting unit….but it won’t happen. doc has his team set up for the big three to lead, everyone else to keep in line. doesnt wanna hurt the starters feelings, and make a change: unless we lose by twenty in the next two games. Then ainge will start leaning on him im0p—-
malcontents....the lot of you
Finally the metaphor fits
Moving around guys in the rotations is like moving around deck chairs on the Titanic.
Sheed for Perk is all I can think of. And even that doesn’t really do anything.
Chuckle. I guess I understand people clinging to the notion that there’s a fix for this season. But the ideas get more nonsensical by the day.
There isn’t a fix, and it’s just best to get your arms around that. This team isn’t going to make a title run. It’s not been a secret for quite a while. Pretending that benching the starters like a junior high program will fix something is just a waste of time.
no there isnt a magical fix
but at this point, I would magically shake up the line up regardless—-schizzamm! Hurt feelings or not players coach rivers.
malcontents....the lot of you
For all of those...
saying to rest the starters in March for a run in the playoffs should look at history and see if that still makes sense to them. When is the last time you’ve seen a team have to rest players so early and end up winning the title? If that worked, Cleveland and LA would be cruising along in the regular season right now. We need to use the regular season to figure out what is broken in time for the playoffs. Do we really think they are collectively playing poorly together because they are old and tired? That excuse is old and tired. We aren’t going to magically walk into Round 1 and turn into the ‘08 team because we cut the Big 3’s minutes.
they're not 'magically' walking anywhere
if they can’t walk -
a mere reduction in minutes for the big three WILL pay dividends come the playoffs
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
We can be as creative as we want
… but Doc is not going to change anything major. Not this late in the season. And probably not at any time. It’s not in his nature to change… he’s just talking there. His bet is down, and it’s on this team as is. Win or lose.
I wish
I didn’t agree with you, but I do. But like Jeff said, what’s the fun in facing reality at this point?!?
2-3 consectutive 18pt lossess will forces his hand
and much as id like that change…..I hope it doesnt come to that.
malcontents....the lot of you
i have no faith in doc rivers
he’s never demonstrated an ability to manage a rotation, i don’t see why we should expect him to start now.
For the record
I’m not for firing Doc. I think he made a real difference in ‘08, with his shining moment coming at halftime of the Finals game 4. He did an unbelievable job keeping this team’s fire lit last year in the playoffs, taking Orlando to 7 games with no KG and a drained Pierce (OK, so Pierce was drained B/C of Doc who inexplicably ran him into the ground to get the #2 seed which ultimately didn’t matter, but I digress). With all of the finger pointing supposedly going on with the C’s right now, no player has called out Doc. I think that means something.
real simple
IF YOU WANNA WIN PUT SHELDEN IN!!!!
by eshak20534 on Mar 11, 2010 8:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Did you see Shelden "Stone Hands"
… drop that simple bounce pass on his way to an open dunk, near the end last night? He’s got some deficits, that man…
I would replace Perkins with Rasheed and Marquis with Paul in the starting 5. Nate, Paul, Finley, Perkins and Shelden come off the bench. If Shelden is having a bad game sub BB.
i actually like your idea as crazy as it sounds...
if only because I think benching PP will be the slap in the face that he needs to get out of his funk. Will never happen of course, but I still like it. We are more likely to see Scal start over Rondo as starting PG.
However I want to see TA get more minutes instead of Finley. Tony is one of the few guys on this team that actually hustles and actually makes momentum changing plays… and he’s been bumped out of the rotation by a 37 year old guy who doesn’t know our defense after 2 games.
by milt palacio's shot on Mar 11, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
i could see it
but Id be benching paul not as slap, but because he’s not getting to the rim. He can do the eddie house routine all day long on the second unit.
malcontents....the lot of you
two things I'd change
1) Change the offense because it isn’t working. It has worked in the past when guys like KG and PP were able to dominate their one on one matchups, but it doesn’t work anymore. They need to get the pick and pop happening like it once did with RR and KG, and they need PP to start scoring consistently with his pullup. Get Perk off of the three point line where Doc has him making poor feeds into a posting PP or KG. And the players need to all be a threat on the floor – guys without the ball do not move on this team (except for Ray on screens).
2) New policy – you dedicate two guys to crashing the offensive glass every possession… for example Perk and PP. It’s not like this team is getting beat on transition defense anyway – we’re just not getting enough shots. Instead of 5 guys automatically turning their heads and running up the floor when the ball hits rim, you only bring 3 guys back immediately. You let Paul and Perk focus on stealing back some easy hoops.
by milt palacio's shot on Mar 11, 2010 8:40 PM EST reply actions
disagree
1) The offense DOES work – as long as they actually execute it. Three aspects have not consistently been executed and that is preventing it from working at times: 1) Poor jumper shooting at times has allowed defenses to sag into the paint 2) Poorly executed screens have either failed to clear shooters (hence #1) or worse, resulted in moving screen fouls. 3) Lack of ball movement. The ball needs to change hands until it finds the man with the most open shot.
2) The current strategy is already 2 guys (guards) go back automatically while the bigs have the option – with the favored inclination being to go back. Your strategy mandating two to always crash the board would almost certainly lead to giving up more transition baskets. Especially if you specifically designate particulary guys (i.e. Paul & Perk in the example) because within 5 minutes of play the other team would figure that out and ALWAYS send their man loose.
He needs to get familiar with change
I would think that a coach would see that not changing things around a bit is not doing any good. This is the perfect time to do so. With only like 19 games left, this is the time he can use with these games to see how things can work out with change, and if it works, we can use that going into the playoffs.
I wish I could ask Doc why change is so scary. I know some people are not fans of change, and are scared of it, but sometimes that is the only thing you can do.. go to the extreme measures.
I would stop playing favorites with veterans and the Big 3, and stop playing them so long. I would also play Nate more, and not take him out immediately when things are going wrong. He brings in athleticism, which we don’t have much of.
Lastly, I would change the offensive plays a little bit. And change the rotations and who comes off the bench first, and see what works. Maybe minus Rondo with the starting 5 and let Nate take that role instead? Or Marquis instead of PP? I dunno.. I’m just coming up with stuff right now. I’m in DESPERATE MODE!!
There are some stuff that I wish I could change immediately, but things like rebounding problems, turn overs, lack of effort seem to be mental, and that is something you can’t change on the dot. Takes a while…
Me? I'm just a girl who loves the Celtics...
Replace Perkins and Pierce in the Starting Lineup
I’d start Sheed and Daniels instead.
I also believe they need to cut back on Rondo’s minutes, but when Rondo is resting I would play Daniels and TA in the backcourt. Robinson is too much of a defensive liability. I also think Shelden needs more minutes. I would play that by ear, depending on how Garnett, Wallace, BBD and Perkins are doing on a given evening.
My hard and fast rule would be, anyone who doesn’t box out, comes out. There’s simply no excuse for standing around on the boards. And the larger the player’s salary, the longer he would sit.
Agree. We need energy to start these games. Too many first quarter deficits to climb back from. Daniels will give us a slasher to go with Rondo’s penetration. It would also be a wake up call to Perk.
I agree too
Too many times I look up and we are down by 10 points in the first quarter and we don’t seem to be able to come back like we used to when we get down.
rhythm and spurts
i’ve tended to think that kg’s games are too stop and go. meaning, he’s capable of getting off to decent 1st quarters, but then he sits the final 2 to 3 mins of the 1st, the intermission, then the first 6 mins or so of the 2nd quarter, and is repeated in the 3rd and 4th. how about reducing his breaks? like tommy said before with pierce’s shot, “don’t let him dry out!” i think kg dries out a bit. i think doc’s been a little overprotective.
it’s kind of like in baseball when everyone’s solution to save pitchers’ arms is to reduce their innings (effectively, theoretically, making them weaker), but guys like nolan ryan think it’s imperative to get pitchers MORE innings so they are stronger. more or less the same theory with kg here. play him the first 6 minutes, rest him the until 2, 3 minutes left through the end of the quarter, then play him 3 to 4 minutes of the 2nd, and bring him back in 5, 6 minutes left in the half. less downtime to dry out. also INSIST he shoot in the post more. he seems SO reluctant to shoot on the block. he has to keep the defense honest because they all know he tries like hell to pass out of the block. and when he does make a move on the block, how about a little more up-and-under? everything’s shimmy-and-fade! what’s good for ’sheed is good for kg too!
pierce?…i got no answer there. perhaps drop all this 3-point shooter BS and BE the scorer he naturally is. readapt the midrange…1-3 picks so he can post the opposing PG at the high post…junk like that. i think that midrange opens up his ability to drive. then bust that 3 a couple times a night max.
and i disagree with ray moving to the 2nd unit. i think it’s imperative ray is on the court at the same time as kg (provided kg embraces the low block). with ray bombing from outside, kg NEEDS to draw the D in inside. if kg is jacking midrange, and pierce and ray are shooting strictly beyond the arc, there’s just not enough inside presence. i need to go find some sabermetrics that support this outside/inside theory of mine!
my 2¢ anyway.
No, the inside outside theory is very sound.
But it works a little inversely from what you describe.
The highest percentage shots are in the paint. Shots in the paint hit at a 55% clip while shots from out around the arc are down around 35%. So you want to gear your offense to create shots in the paint either by passing in to bigs down low or by slashing.
However, if that’s all you tried to do, defenses just sag into the paint to keep you out.
So you need at least one and by far preferably two outside shooting threats (in our starting unit that would be Ray and Paul). Because they are a constant threat to take a shot from way outside and make it if you don’t contest it, that forces their man to play them tight, even when way out there. That means that that guy can not stand with one foot in the paint and be there to help defend in the paint. Space is created for attacking inside simply by having the threat of the outside shot. Also, because the defender has to play Ray tighter, he is easier to pick off with screens.
Watch what happens when we have Ray on the bench and say, TA in for him. TA’s man knows that he isn’t going to shoot from outside. So he plays soft off of him, waiting for him to slash to the paint. This spacing also allows the defender to run through screens without getting picked off. And finally, because the defender is backed off so much, he is able to also turn and provide help defense in the paint.
The textbook example of this whole effect has to be the New Orleans game – the only one that Ray missed all year. In that one, NO figured out quickly that all they had to do was sag 4 guys in the paint and put one guy tight all over Paul. That completely shut down our offense. Paul could not slash past his man becuase their were 4 guys clogging the paint. He had no one to pass to on the perimeter because Rondo and TA are not perimeter shooters.
Similarly, when Paul has been out or struggling, teams put more emphasis on stopping Ray. In Ray’s case, since he works away from the ball so much the strat is more complex – they have to smother Rondo and deny passing lanes to Ray. The Grizzlies did this very well.
This is why Ray is SO important to this offense. Not just because he’s a great shooter. But his mere presence opens up space for the other guys.
Nate (and formerly Eddie) have to provide that role on the second team. The missing thing has been a second shooting threat for the bench. You really need two to spread the defense. But we haven’t had that in Daniels or TA and that has forced Ray to play so much with the bench (as well as been the reason Sheed has been out on the perimeter so much). This is also why Finley is a big pickup. Now, having Finley, Doc can have two guys on the floor that can create space by threatening from the arc. This allows Sheed to stay home in the post where we want him.
So your basic idea of having an inside/outside strategy is correct.
But it is the threat of the outside game that is used to enable inside scoring.
rondo needs to be rested
In more than a few gaMes this season I see us running the poor kid into the ground in gthe 1st half and then hope he still has the energy to close ojut the game. Start bringing in nate to replace rondo not play alon gside him.
by threats13 on Mar 11, 2010 9:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
uhh....
dude have u watched any of the games? nate never plays next to rondo unless its like garbage time…. Nate always comes in for rondo with like a minute left in the first
Change for the sake of change
I took a look today at the remaining games we have and found of the 19 left, 12 are against what I call Quality opponents, with above 500 records right now. Its a little dark out there when u look at how we’ve been playing, and what’s left out there to wade through before we even get to the playoffs. As it is right now, the way we’re showing up everynight, and w/o making any shocking changes to the starting lineup, I think it fair to say-in my opinion C’s would be lucky to end 50-32. Now whlile thats not a bad record at all, it’s the way we get there. Putting together ugly wins, not gritty character building, team untiting wins. I think an early playoff exit eminent. And I’ve loved the C’s since the 80’s, so I’m not going anywhere. Can u really bench #34 and #5. Maybe I would. Given how thier lackluster play, throwing up poor attempts in the face of younger more energetic defenders, it’s like they’ve forgotten how to be the crafty clever vets that I know they are. So… I would start Baby for KG, and get back to really encouraging Davis to shine like we’ve seen. We really need him to have a good show on the floor, he does have a solid game, even though he can’t raelly jump. Then I’d bench Paul a little more, allowing Daniels and Finley to try to fill up the bucket a little more with minutes earlier on in the game. I would try that for at least 2-3 games, in the 1st half and see what comes of it. Next I would try to get back to the overall idea that rondo is dangerous when he’s really trying to get his team involved. Too often lately, I’ve seen him put his head down, and almost disregard his team. I know he can score-almost at will, and since he’s absolutly proven that-if he gets back to pass 1st, I think we reignite the danger that he poses. It used to be- he can slash and penetrate but healways passes-where is his offense-so teams would lay off him a bit- so then he started finishing at the rim to show that he would score if he could. Now he calls his own # a lot, maybe a little too much. He’s still young enough to learn there’s got to be a balance. We have a lot of guys now who are proven threats. They can’t threaten the scoreboard if they don’t have the ball. And lastly I would give perk a break a little more, in favor of making sure Wallace owns the paint, and in practices I would do as much as possible to get his game focused back in the post. Have him play inside to play out, and shoot no more than 3, 3’s a game unless he’s on fire. Also work Daniels out of the post for his short teardrops and midrange jumpers. My plan 2-3 games like this. Starting line Rondo, Ray, Daniels, Baby, and Sheed. Paul comming in next with KG sometime bwn 1st and 2nd qtr. See if that pisses them off a little. If u don’t produce u shouldn’t be out there. If you work hard u get rewarded, isn’t that how starters earn a role in the 1st place. Old guys are beat up, long faces no answers, no drive, slow feet. If you move and run and defend and get involved on both ends you play more. Big baby has been that guy of late and when he’s on the floor, he’s everywhere.
Thoughts on Paul
I’ve been thinking about this one for a long while. I like paul shooting the 3, but in some ways, these c’s seem to be emulating the recipe they used back in the antione walker days-lots and lots of half a’d 3 attempts. Flat-no arc 3 point shots from Paul and Sheed and Ray and ……. I mean really!
I find myself watching paul and ray and thinking, these guys are great competitors who can kill teams at the foul line, but they hardly ever get there. What’s the use in being a good free throw shooter if you dont use that skill to really hurt your opponents. Lately paul’s been off and trying to get to the line, but it doesn’t happen enough. I want to see ray and paul and sheed fighting to get to the rim. Penetrating and finishing or passing. Forcing teams to match up on the move and try to cover the threats on the run. Paul is so good going to the basket. Ray can penetrate too and he has a beauty of a soft touch with his floaters. Guys, make the other teams keep up with you, and use the veteran wiles and ballfakes and body positioning to get those fouls ALL GAME LONG. Ill say it again-that’s how Baby is getting to the line so much. We play defensive hoops, so lets play some more strategic offense. Play to get teams in the penalty by going inside to get to the line, or go inside to get the ball outside to folks like Ray,Finley,Daniels,Nate,Sheed,or Paul. But don’t just stand around on the arc and watch Rondo get mugged and slide all over the floor killing himself to get the ball in his hands and sacrificing his body for the shot.
"James posey isn't walking through that door"
Just thoght I’d say it
the few, the proud, the boston celtics
by bleedgreen34 on Mar 11, 2010 9:56 PM EST via mobile reply actions
One more thing
I’m really clearing my head here-sorry…. this one’s simple. You may all hate this idea. I’ve been wondering why the hell Scal is on the roster. Dude is totally worthless. He never brings anything offensively, and every team knows it. I wouldn’t really call hima defensive specialist either. His contributions on the whole are very questionable. GET RID of Scal asap, he’s not helping especially when he makes a gem of a play inbounding the ball straight to an opposing player. I saw that happen at least twice. Slap him in the back of the head and give him a big kick in the pants right out on the street. He’d be perfect in the D league, don’t know why we’re not taking a closer look at m.Landry, I saw some video of his game online, he’s got a nice jumper, and he could in theory be a possible extra backup for Paul.
Line up idea
Rondo Daniels Baby KG Wallace, or Rondo Daniels Baby Wallace Perk. have a good nite celtics nation…. here’s to green beers and a hope for a better tommorrow. Later!!!!
Ray coming off the bench...
doesn’t make any sense. Honestly, he’s the only guy that’s been getting things done lately. His 3 point shot might be flat on some nights(last night for example), but he’s finding ways to the basket. Marquis might be a slasher, but he’s not getting it done at the rim. Ray has been the most consistent Celtic next to Rondo since the trade deadline.
Everyone was saying, “trade ray!, trade ray!” and after the trade deadline Ray has put up 17, 3 (on a night where he only had 3 shots), 25, 16, 3 (against Charlotte where he shut down Stephen Jackson), 18, 10, 21, 24, 25, 21, 24 and 16. That’s an average of 17.2 PPG. That’s second best on the team and with Pierce not getting much lift, we need a scorer. In the first quarter of last night’s game, Ray had 6 of the team’s 12 total points. It’s not saying much, but he was getting to the basket. So I don’t understand why everyone wants Ray to come off the bench.
Honestly, if anything is going to get switched up, it should be Rasheed starting instead of Perkins. As much as I’d rather see Perk start, it seems as if Rasheed plays a much better game as a starter. I don’t know if he’s not capable of shooting well coming off the bench but whenever he started in place of KG, his numbers were much better than what they are when he comes off the bench. Although I think Perk is better defensively because of his youth, his offense has become very stagnant.
Pierce and KG aren’t anywhere near 100%. Last night, I was watching the game and every time KG rimmed out, I thought about how bad the knee actually might be. Pierce is still hobbling around and I’d rather see him take some more time off, but that’s not the Truth’s M.O. He’s not getting to the basket like he should and can’t draw the foul like we’re accustomed to. With 19 games left in the season, I think resting both of these guys a little bit more would be a good idea. It would allow T.A., Shelden, and Marquis more minutes.
I really digressed there, but I’m sticking with my original point. Everyone needs to stop saying that Ray should come off the bench. The stats show that he’s got the hot hand for us right now. Last night’s game certainly showed that he’s our best guy when it comes to getting to the basket when Rondo can’t. If it’s a spark off the bench that you’re looking for… that’s why we got Nate Robinson. Instead of playing the back-up PG role, he should have the role Eddie used to have. Play him at SG and let Marquis find him when he’s open. Nate is a shooter and that’s why we got him.
That’s just my thoughts anyways.
I was thinking the Celtics could have Life size BobbleHead night for KryptoNate
they won’t take up much room….might get the crowd excited if you could bring out some fans at halftime and see who could jump over their Nate bobblehead? just a thought
Is it Soup Yet?
The New Lucky
KryptoNate would be perfect as the new Lucky. Maybe he can also learn to balance dishes on his chin while riding a unicycle.
concern troll with suggestions
1) Botox treatments for all the old dudes could have a positive psychological effect that might be transfered to on the court success. When you look good you feel good.
2) Danny Ainge could convert the whole organization to Mormonism. Anyone who has kept up with Utah sports knows that some kind of supernatural spiritual force is happening there that makes even all-white basketball (and football) teams scary good. Contrary to all the laws of physics and nature, white guys in Mormon Utah can jump. Just think what their religion could do with black guys, even old ones.
3) Bring back the Bird, McHale, Parish trio and combine with suggestions 1 and 2.
OK, I’ve done my part to help out. Now, GO BLAZERS!
Should Have Done So From The Start
Considering the C’s started the season 8-0 and 24-3, it wouldn’t have hurt if,
a. Doc used Bill Walker, JR Giddens to check how they would do, coupled
with different rotations using the 1st and 2nd units.
b. Doc trusted all his players and started planning 2nd unit plays,
particularly for athletic guys like Walker, Giddens & TA, and shooters
like Eddie House & Sheed.
Look at them now!!! Bill Walker and JR Giddens are very talented guys
we let go, along with a solid pro like Eddie. No disrespect to Nate, very good
player in his own right, but the trade was done to try to solve a problem
that’s within the team right now (and the coach!!!), and this wasn’t the
solution.
PLAYER DEVELOPMENT!!!!! ALL SUPERSTARS STARTED THIS WAY!!!!
Enough said…..
by Vince_frmthePhils on Mar 11, 2010 10:58 PM EST reply actions
make the rotation smaller
Like it has been mentioned before, i don’t think the rotation of having 5 guys come in at around the same time to replace the entire lineup is smart. Doc should stagger the minutes. A game of substitutions should go like this.
Same Starting 5
Around 6 mins left in first Sheed for Perkins
Around 4 minutes left in first Nate for Ray Allen and Glen for K.G.
Near end of first put in Marquis for Peirce
10 min left in second Ray Allen for Rondo
8 min left Perkins for Sheed
5 min left K.G. for Baby, Perice for Marquis
4 min left Rondo for Nate
Starting lineup back out on floor. Do about the same thing for the second half. That would make the minutes go : 28 mins for Perk, 20 for sheed, 36 for Ray allen, 24 mins for Nate, 36 for rondo, 34 for Paul, 14 for Marquis, 30 for K.G. 18 for Glen Davis. Get some different looks out their too!
It Isn't Rocket Science
My old HS coach had a simple philosophy. If you were playing like crap, you got benched.
Perkins and Pierce are playing like crap. Bench them. If they care about getting their starting jobs back and playing starter’s minutes, they can earn those roles back with hustle and heads up play.
cosigned....something is up with those two
But for pierce I think its more physical limitation. I also saw Perkins shoulder bump Kg during substitution in the memphis game first half….I don’t think thats incidental contact. He looks pissed off minus the scowl.
malcontents....the lot of you
Doc is finally getting it....
Tinkering with the starting line up is not a bad idea even though it should of been tried earlier on in the season.
He should start Robinson in place of Ray and let the duo of Robinson and Rondo defensively press right from the start of the game to get some steals turnovers and easy buckets..
Our defense needs a spark and more defensive pressure will also lead to turnovers and more easy buckets which we are in dire need of also.
I would also go a step further and start Daniels in place of Paul to add more athleticism on the court and more defense pressure since he can help press also.
Also starting Robinson and Daniels we instantly become much more younger, athletic and energetic which is just what we need.
Having Ray and Paul go to the bench will help them since they will match up against back up players instead of starters.
This is a good short term move to help us this year and long term so we can start developing players to replace Allen and Pierce in the starting line up and help Pierce and Allen come off the bench which may be a role they will have to accept as they age down the line if they remain with the club.
Perk is struggling, but I think we should not bench him since that may damage him mentally.
I say let him work out of this funk and he will be fine.
Whatever Doc does in regards to changing the starting lineup I think doing so will not hurt and can probably only help the C’s short and long term.
Except he won't, ford
He’s just talking… something he’s good at. It’s not in Doc’s nature to change things around, especially not at this point in the season. It’s just talk.
Like the creativity, but I think it sends the wrong message to not bench someone because it could harm them mentally (Perk), but then put Ray and PP on the bench despite the fact Ray has been playing very well of late. I do however like your idea of more pressure defense from Rondo and Robinson. I can’t remember the game, but it was awhile ago and Boston starting doing more of a trapping half court defense. They were behind and it definitely helped. Of course, I don’t think it would be wise to use with the older lineup, but use it situtionally. What about an intense matchup zone used once in awhile to help perserve legs, and help out players who are getting beat in there man2man assignments. I know zone is rarely used in nba, but once again use it in situations to help perserse legs and hide matchup problems.
Do not want.
A Rondo + Robinson backcourt is not a good idea.
Not only will it immediately be vulnerable to teams with at least one tall physical guard, but offensively Nate is not as efficient as Ray.
And for all the hue and cry, the team’s defense is still the best (yes with RAY on the floor 35 minutes per game) in the NBA. Replacing him with Nate is not going to improve the defense.
Do you really think it is better to have Nate and Marquis matched up against starters for starter minutes (30-36 mpg) just to get Ray and Paul matched up against the bench for bench minutes (12-18 mpg) ??
Finally a starting 5 of Rajon-Nate-Daniels-KG-Perk has only one outside shooting threat (Nate). Defenses will just put a man tight on him and sag into the paint.
You have to have floor spacing and balance.
Well its true ........
Some teams will take advantage of our small back court tandem of Robinson and Rondo,
but those 2 will take advantage of oppossing guards with their speed and defensive tenacity.
I Agree with Ray on the bench we will have less of a outside threat and teams will sag into the paint , but that would only be a issue if we utilize a half court offense.
In my post above my hope is if we put Robinson and Daniels on the floor that we could step up our defense into high octane mode which would create alot of steals and missed shots which would then lead to a lot of easy fast break shots in transition for the C’s.
If we then also switch from a half court game to a fast break offensive game plan ( where I think we are at our best) that would conceal our outside shooting deficiencies since we would be getting alot more inside drives to the basket instead.
I also think Nate can press much better then Ray and and can hassle opposing guards with his speed and defensive tenacity.
With all due respect to Ray I do not think he can play tough defense and press for as long of stretches as Robinson could.
Also just because I say start Robinson and Daniels it does not mean I want to give them full blown starting minutes and give Pierce and Garnett crumb like bench minutes.
Doc can start Robinson and Daniels so they can set the tone of the game (utilizing aggressive defense and a fast break offense) then Doc can let Garnet and Pierce come in early on for relief where they can get to play against the opposing teams tired starters and then against their bench players.
Garnett and Pierce can still play alot of minutes but doing so against tired starters and bench players is a win – win for them considering they are ailing and aging players.
Again this team needs to shake things up and maybe trying something like pressing defensively and going to a fast break transition offense may be a decent idea for Doc to try.
Lets see what happens.
I don't like change for the sake of change.
We already generate a high percentage of transition points. Hell, we actually lead in that category when we got pasted the other night.
Ray has played 35-36 minutes per game all year on the team that still has the top defensive efficiency rating in the NBA. He is taller. He knows how to play our team defense perfectly. He has tremendous endurance. On what basis could you think that Nate Robinson can play ‘tougher defense and press for longer stretches’ than Ray Allen?
What we need is better efficiency with our half-court offense because you HAVE to be able to run a half-court offense down the stretch of games.
Change that doesn’t address the actual problems is not going to help.
The actual problems are in simple execution of our half-court offense for distinct stretches. We execute it beautifully for 30 minutes. Then we keep dropping into this funk where we start committing stupid turnovers, travels, moving picks, etc., and we are not moving the ball and using our screens to create open looks or lanes and so we are not taking high-percentage shots. And when it goes south we then start neglecting our defense and it all goes to pot.
The only roster change I might consider making is swapping Sheed for Perk. Mainly because Perk just isn’t playing good ball right now and Sheed is a more versatile offensive player. He’s also better defensively in at C rather than PF so that won’t hurt our defense like it did when he was subbing for KG.
But mostly I expect the real solution is just better execution.
I just think our half court offensive execution is really struggling this year...
that we would be better off trying to get more of our offense through a fast break transition offense then through our half court offensive game plan.
Since KG is no longer a low post scoring threat, Perk is struggling in the low post and Baby can not score down low I think it makes running our half court offense game very hard since then we would have to rely on hitting alot more lower percentage perimeter shots under heavy defensive pressure.
The only way we can remedy our half court offensive execution is if Doc and Rondo were to set up more plays and go to Sheed big time in the low post since he is really I think our only legit low post scorer.
Rasheed I think has been the 2nd half of the season been really working hard to get in the low post (even though most believe otherwise), but the problem when he does get down low and calls for the ball Rondo and the rest of the team do not look for him or give him the ball.
If you watch closely when we run our 1/2 court offensive game , as crazy as it may seem it appears Doc, Rondo and the rest of the team do not want to give Rasheed the ball in the low post and they are waiting for him to move out to the perimiter to then give him the ball.
This is Rondos and Docs fault, when the big fella works hard to get in the low post they must see to it he gets the ball.
Its just like Mchale years ago with the C’s, DJ and Bird would always make sure to get the ball to him in his sweet spot so Mchale could do his damage in the low post.
Rondo and Pierce etc. need to do the same with Rasheed if they want to remedy the half court game.
Giving Rasheed the ball down low since he is are only real low post offensive threat is the only way I see us fixing our half court offensive woes.
Those are my thoughts though as right or wrong as they may be.
GOOD OL DAYS
Make it situational. Opponents go fast we go fast. they go big and slow we should too. Let’s not let them dictate neccessarily what we do, but if we see ourselves as a defensive team, maybe we should focus on the smart matchups. Bottom line tho, need to stop settling for the long range J, try to get to the line, get mad and focus the intensity on the D, breaking the opposing offensive mindset, and making them uncomfortable. That discomfort, we’ve seen it created, continues on when the C’s bring the offense down and the fear remains. Come on guys make it happen, bring the intensity and the anger, and the attitude and the fight, here’s to screaming profanities into the stale indoor air of the Garden halfway thru the 4th qtr, pounding your chest, excited missed high fives and flying celebratory body collisions. I miss dominating and shaming opponents. Tell me its making a comeback!!! I STILL BELIEVE
doc's comments
“Yeah, but, you know, I’m slow to change,” he said. “I think consistency is better, but I think at times you do have to think about it. I’m not a big believer in change for change.”
- sad to say there is consistency, just not the type we want to see.
Doc
Time to look for a new coach. These guys just aren’t playing hard for him. Time for a change.
Doc: "I think consistency is better"
Doc, you got what you want — consistency. The Celtics is now consistently losing, consistently ineffective in both ends of the court. If the team is consistently doing the wrong things, why don’t you make some changes.
Either Doc has turned into an ostrich or he has run out of tricks to turn things around this year.
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Start the bench...Bench the starters
Sure, the Celts will still be trailing entering the 4th quarter.
But, at least they`ll be making their frantic 4th quarter run with the “fresh legs” of PP, KG, Ray, Perk, RR….instead of the “tired, gassed legs” of the above mentioned.
No motivation at all.
I remember in ‘08 watching Doc giving instructions to players from the side line sometimes yelling, he spent most of the games hardly sit, This season he is just sit down watching how the C’s hardly play no motivation, no communication among them. I know is all Doc’s fault but I feel he can do much better in that department.
I wouldn't mind seeing Ray come off the bench
One of my favorite lineups is the backups in with Ray. He said before the trade deadline that he would be willing to come off the bench in favor of TA or Quisy
That would be a smart thing to try
We keep loosing to .500 teams is time to try something now. Even sit PP more minutes or any player who’s not producing, give more time to Marquis or Finley or rasheed.
(1) An end to four + five man bench lineups.
(2) I would like to see two of the Celtics Big Three + Rondo stay on the floor at all times.
(3) An end to the Glen Davis + Rasheed Wallace pairing which clearly isn’t working. Each should be paired next to KG or Perk at all times.
(4) And also a shortening of the rotation. At most 9 players and preferably 8 players.
I would like to see those changes.
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