Last Chance To Get It Right
by Jeff Clark on Mar 16, 2010 5:58 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintOne month left in the regular season. Sixteen games. Welcome to the stretch run.
Part of me really just wants to fast forward to the playoffs. I don't know if I can learn anything else about this team that is going to change my mind much about them. I think they are good enough to beat anyone if healthy but I haven't seen that level in months. I think they are inconsistent enough to lose to anyone and if they don't keep the effort up, they will fall to the first team that does. Will they give their best effort and stay healthy for the last month? Who knows?
What I do know is that everything changes in the playoffs. That can be a good or a bad thing for this team. If they really have been bored, that's over. If Kung Fu Rasheed and company are saving their best for the post season, great. Lets see it. Nothing will get this team more fired up and focused than a 7 game series. Of course it cuts both ways. Teams that we might have been able to intimidate for a night will get geeked up and swing back as hard as the Hawks and Bulls did the last two years. (prediction: like every year, we're going to grow to hate the first round opponent, whomever it is).
I'm holding out hope that the playoffs are the difference that we need because the regular season has been a pretty big disappointment thus far. If it wasn't for the fast start the team got out to, we'd be a lot more panicky as a fanbase than we already are.
Speaking of which, allow me to make a quick tangent point. I'm still proud of my Optimistic Realism post because I think I was able to capture a quick snapshot of fans of this team. But part of me wishes I never wrote the thing. As a general rule, labeling anyone is bad and I don't like doing that. Regardless of how you chose to root for your team, you aren't defined by that. You are a fan, period. Otherwise you wouldn't be here reading this blog (day and night for many of you). All points of view (presented in a respectful manner) are welcome here. Don't ever treat someone poorly because their view differs from yours or their style is not what you would do. Like the guys on the floor, we are a team, and our differences is part of what makes us stronger. Ok, rant over.
Back to the games. Even though part of me wants to fast forward to the playoffs, there's part of me that is still interested in the last month as well. The seedings will be a neat sideshow, but they are so out of the team's hands at this point that I'm not going to get overly worked up about (well, not yet at least). The Hawks might kill us, but the Magic own the Hawks and I like our chances against the Magic. So you never know what could happen.
What will be more interesting down the stretch is how consistent the team performs. If they can string together several solid efforts (they don't even have to be wins, as long as they are hard fought and competitive), then I'll feel a lot more comfortable. If we can manage to go a full month without an injury (resting players doesn't count) then I'll feel more comfortable. Right now, I'm happy the team has put together some good wins sandwiched around a loss to the best team in the East. But I'm not comfortable by any means.
So what team will show up in the post season? Right now I have no idea. Perhaps this next month will show us.
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good piece
Nice read. they seem to be getting down to business with the non-playoff teams lately which is a pleasant change. Now if they can beat the Knicks convincingly (would still like to see House and Walker look good but the rest of the team to really stink) which would take consistant defense and rebounding that would be another step in the right direction. If they win 2 of 3 on the next road trip and look like they’re making an effort, that would alleviate a lot of stress there.
by the way, what’s up with this spam sales pitch popping up recently on all the front page articles?
the rest of the way
mostly all games vs competetive, explosive offensive teams….very intriguing. aint no turning it up in the playoffs, time to exercise those demons now and put some fear back in the competition. Ainge sees it: he said the way they’re playin right now they’re not a playoff contender…..he had some excellent insight into the frustration with team play, and whats goin on in the coaches head concerning key players—
malcontents....the lot of you
Wow! Is spamming like the first post allowed here?
Who would send Christmas gifts in March?
Yeah I've started noticing this
about a few days ago. Absolutely sux!
I guess we should just try to ignore it until Jeff can fix the problem, if he can. ESPN has had this problem for a while now., hope it doesn’t continue here.
Watch out for the Bucks
The C’s will need to take care of business the last month or Scott Skiles’ team may sneak past them for the 4th best record. Of course, the C’s will be the 4th seed unless they can surpass Atlanta due to winning their division but homecourt would go to the Bucks if they have a better record.
I, too, am undecided about the C’s chances in the playoffs. The last month should tell us a lot but given the team’s approach to games this season – LeBron says they look bored – you wonder if they truly care about the last 16 games, or to be more precise whether they think it matters a whole lot how many of them they win.
The mantra from Rivers on down seems to be: we just need to get healthy and be playing well when the playoffs begin. Of course they do. That’s stating the obvious. But this isn’t like the NFL, which has one-game series. Sustaining a conxistent effort is something we haven’t seen since November, and that’s what worries me.
The surprise factor is that Michael Finley may help save the C’s season. His buyout by the Spurs was unexpected so you can’t give Ainge credit for pulling that trigger. The ones he pulled after careful deliberation have not yet worked out, i.e. Wallace, Daniels, Robinson. I know, yet.
Maybe Wallace will surprise us all by getting his butt into the post and actually doing more than slap at guys’ arms on defense. Maybe even take a charge.
Maybe Daniels will find he can shoot from past 10 feet and remember how to handle the ball.
Maybe Robinson will show he’s more than just a younger version of Eddie House with less character, although the showboat dunk last night when the opponent was being drubbed hardly does much to dismiss his well-earned reputation from NY. Maybe he will learn to run an offense if he’s going to play point guard, but that’s about as likely as House being suited to play point. With both players, it hinders their game. This is where the team needs Daniels to handle the ball like it was said he would when he signed here.
Maybe the C’s will take all the negative comments from the media and the way other teams are no longer scared of them and make that their ubuntu of 2010. Sure hope so.
Agree about Daniels
He has been out of sorts, but he seems to have good court vision and is a better playmaker than Nate. I think Nate runs the pick and roll well with Davis, so they can use that until teams adjust, then switch to letting Daniels create a bit. I’m not sure Wallace can be the player we need him to be. His signing is looking like a mistake now, because KG can’t guard those mobile big men that are killing us and Sheed can’t either.
by Celticsbloke on Mar 16, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Nate not Great
I thought he was a get-to-the-rim kind of guy who would use dribble penetration and quickness. I have not seen this at all, not once! All Nate does is pound the ball, “fiddle and diddle” and then launch treys.
I know he’s just getting comfortable but basically anyone on the team can do what he’s doing. When will Doc tell him to put his head down and get in the paint? Anyonle else notice this?
ainge talked about this in game last night
nate doesnt have the green light…he’s on a leash
malcontents....the lot of you
by dasandruler on Mar 16, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
More than a Feeling
Since the Christmas day game at Orlando(and the Portland-LAL back-to-backs) I have not seen any consistent efforts by this team. I know they MAY be able to turn it on but now it seems less and less likely.
I have seen big lapses in concentration on both ends, mindless turnovers(unforced like looping passes to nobody and dribbling off feet) and an inability to get a big rebound.
My fear is that, realizing they have no legitimate shot, the C’s play poorly and without passion, thus affording themselves an excuse for losing. "If we had played better, we would have beaten (fill in the blank). Remember 1983 when the Celtics, fed up with Fitch, tanked to Milwaukee to avoid embarrassment at the hands of the Sixers?
I went with my new approach of just enjoying the games come what may, and it worked beautifully last night. Nice to watch the C’s blow another team out, even if it was the lowly Pistons. It allowed more rest for the starters and more of a chance for the second unit to play with Fin and Nate. Tough 4 games after the Knicks game. I do not even care if they win any of them. I just want to see energy and heart, as well as the team using these games to work on their sets, rotations, and all around game before the second season starts. We are going to do no worse than the 4th seed and know that whatever the second round matchup is, it is going to be tough. Let’s just enjoy the ride and see what happens.
It`s called "Letting Go"...
At this point, only a fool would “emotionally invest” in this current Celtic team.
On the other hand, it sucks rooting without the passion of being emotionally invested.
Ball Don`t Lie…Old teams cannot compete for the full 48 minutes, especially against true contenders.
But…..the playoff schedule has many off days built in which allows for rest and practice. Also, there will be less travel. When the C’s are home, they will be there for a few days. When we play our opponent on their court, we will be in that city for a few days. And, we can focus on one opponent in a 7 game series and make adjustments. All this plus our experience favors an older team in the playoffs. Although we fans have suffered a lot of angst this season, at least we are going into this playoff season (hopefully) with a full squad.
If you look at the full roster, it is sick with talent. We have all sorts of comibinations from 1 through 11. We have quality bigs, slashers, 3 point shooters, experience. There is also a myth this is an old team. We have five guys who are over 30 and guys like TA, Rondo, Daniels, Robinson, Davis, bring a lot of energy and youth to the team. These final 16 games should be glorified practices for the playoffs and Doc should use this time to find the combinations that work.
Once the ball is tossed in the air...it`s a 48 minute game
The other team also gets the same days off…the same stay in that one city…the same opportunity to focus on one team.
48 minutes is more than enough time for the quicker, stronger, younger, more athletic team to “expose and exploit” it`s weaker opponent.
The Celts can generally hang with any team for at least 40-42 minutes in any given game.
But there will be various moments, at varying times, when they can`t…and that`s where the games are lost.
True, but I like our roster with the same opportunities afforded by rest and practice. Our edge comes from playoff experience and talent. Yes, the other teams have a lot of young legs, but with the amount of rest and practice time that the post-season brings, I think that experience and talent 1 through 11 will give us an advantage. The only teams I really worry about matching up with,regardless of the playoff schedule, are the Magic and the Nuggets.
You summed it up perfectly.
Only a fool would emotionally invest, but I can’t stand rooting without the passion so I guess I’ll continue to be a fool.
Fool, thank you very much for the label!
If one is born every minute, I have my minute staked out too. We have beaten some teams we shouldn’t have, but it is about time we started beating the teams we should beat! We will be ready for the playoffs. Each game we are showing improved play, while not yet always winning play….I will not give up on my Celts, they are talented, getting healthy, learning how to play together again, and know how to win…and rooting for them never “sucks” for me. I still believe we will be in the mix of teams with a chance to win it all. If the emotional investment is too much for you, read Kiplings’ poem “IF”. Keep the faith, liamail. Go Celtics!
by thirstyboots18 on Mar 16, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
dallas mavericks--
malcontents....the lot of you
by dasandruler on Mar 16, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
oldest team in the league....legit contender
malcontents....the lot of you
by dasandruler on Mar 16, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point. If they do not play in the WCF, I will be surprised. DRJ1’s recent post on Reds Army about the 1969 Celtics is a must read. Same issues and criticisms facing that team as this one and they won it all. Granted, different time period, etc.. but that is the beauty of sports. Anything can happen. With all the criticism leveled at this team and the perception of growing old and soft, I guarantee that no team wants to face us in a series. Even if those teams think they can win the series, they will be bruised and battered after it is over.
1969 comparison is faulty...
The 1969 team did NOT have to face any big, “athletic” teams.
Philly was a nothing club w/o Chamberlain, and was just waiting to get exposed in the playoffs.
NY couldn`t run, and played a slow, half-court game.
LA couldn`t run, and played a slow, half-court game.
55-27
was LA’s regular season record, as was Philly’s. NY’s was 54-28.
Boston’s was 48-34.
Not sure I understand what any of this has to do with the type of offense they were facing. He’s just pointing out that these two teams faced the same criticisms and similar issues.
Did you just say...
…That you do NOT understand why it would be easier for an “old” team {Boston}…to face an opponent that lacks the quickness and “athleticism” to play an up-tempo style?
My point was that the 69 team had a less than stellar regular seasons with an old line-up (and Russell as player-coach!) but the Celtics beat a good Philly team and LA team to win the championship. Bill Simmons does a great job in his book describing the level of competition in the NBA in the 50’s and 60’s. Although there were less teams, and hence less players, the teams were stacked 7, 8, 9 deep because the talent pool was not diluted. So the level of competition was high in the playoffs. There is precedent in the Celtics’ rich history for this to happen, as well as other precedents in sports. Make no mistake, we need the extra days off and the practice that the playoffs afford. But because of that, I think the Celtics will be formidable and I am will stick with that if and when they lose in the playoffs.
From a talent standpoint...
1965-1974 was the NBA`s greatest era. The 1980`s didn`t even come close!
As for 1969, NY was the best team Boston beat in the post-season.
They were a bit inexperienced, and didn`t quite know how to win yet. They won it all the next year.
In `69, Boston jumped out to a quick 2-0 lead, then hung on to win the series…by winning Games 4 & 6 at home, by 1 point each time!
GIVEN
• It’s almost a given they advance to the 2nd round – regardless of their current level of play -
• I cannot see this squad getting bounced in the first round -
• Unless the unlikely happens and they slip to the 6th, 7th or 8th spot -
• A 2nd round 7 game series with home court advantage to the opponent is what this season is about now.
• That and using the rest of the regular season to incorporate Finley (nice play last night) and Robinson .
• As well as get minutes for Sheldon, Tony Allen, Scal?, et al.
• Get stronger, faster, healthier by reduction of minutes and make a run at 18 –
• I, as always, am on board – buckled in – ready to roll
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
IMO, the first round access is not a given.
especially that we are now seeded 4th. If this continues, and the buck remains 5th, they will give us a hard time, maybe even an upset if were not careful.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
Yes, intimidation is the key to domination.
by Marjun Raposon on Mar 16, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
NO! we cant stay in 4th seed!
2nd round would be tough if that will happen, we’ll be facing Cavs!
id say if Celtics can get the 2nd or 3rd seed, orlando is 4th it would be great! and BOBCATS is 8th seed! Cavs will have a hardtime come playoffs thus it will be easier for Celts to reach Finals!
-id rather have Magic or Hawks in 2nd round than Cavs!
-hoping Cavs will face BOBCATS then Magic! if ever they can eliminate Cats..LBJ your annoying team will go down!
Id like to draw cleveland in the first round
the stud team in the east…..all eyes on King lebron…. and then watch em get mauled….not a close epic competition. Just mauled. first play of the game variajou hits the floor, and then lebron: because we put him there. 4 game domination…..because they feel disrespected by them and the league. that would be sweet. Im not hoping for the easiest first round scenario. man up or man down….You take out the leader, and the rest will fall.
malcontents....the lot of you
Bucks are not beating us in the first round
as poorly as we’ve played and as critical as I’ve been of this team I don’t see the Bucks beating us in the first round. Can they give us a tough series? sure but that is one series where our experience will be a huge advantage.
about that dunk
that was tony’s fault more than Nate’s. Tony Allen despite everything is still a bone head. All you have to do is lay the ball in . There was no reason for that play. I would love to have a team that went about it’s business without all of the woofing and trash talking but that’s not who we are and that’s not what this league is. Maybe before every game there should be 5 minutes of hot dogging to entertain the fans.
They Could Lose to the Bucks
For starters, the Bucks have a great coach. The Celtics just have a nice guy.
Jeff, you’ve overlooked the major issue. They’re not lazy. They would turn on the effort if they could, but they CAN’T. That’s what happens when you get old. The body breaks down and you can’t jump as high or run as fast. Garnett has been in the league 15 years. It’s not just the knee, it’s everything. Same with Rasheed Wallace, Pierce, Ray Allen, Finley……they’re all close to retirement as NBA players.
he said NOT TO LABEL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!
- so where do you get off labeling Doc Rivers a ‘nice guy’?!
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
Under the Radar
Maybe, just maybe this team is going at cruise control until the playoffs as we think and maybe Danny and Doc are downplaying everything.
But consider their roster versus other top teams. On paper, we should dominate everyone else.
My feeling is that this team doesn’t want to push it self 100 miles per hour but stay at the speed limit until they can get on the open road (Playoffs as Jeff mentions) and they step it up.
If McHale, Bird, Parrish & Company had done this, then maybe we would have witnessed more championships.
Maybe, Danny being the poker player that he is, is trying to save this team for the playoffs.
But, what I don’t get is the effort and if we are really seeing this team’s demise
dont buy it
the hawks are a prime example of a team they physically have been unable to compete with….not coasting, or saving it.
malcontents....the lot of you
by dasandruler on Mar 16, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Old and Young
Sure, our core (KG, Pierce, Allen, Sheed, Finley) has played alot of NBA seasons and is getting slower but we have alot of young, energetic guys as well that play major roles on this team (Rondo, Perk, Nate, TA). Our experience in big games will set us apart from alot the other playoff teams. The 3 other East contenders have NEVER won anything! Let’s not forget the Cavs had the same record last year at this time. Lebron has never won anything that mattered except MVP awards. Hawks will feel the pressure too. Orlando is the only team that has won big playoff series the last year or so. So, our experience will really help. I firmly believe that when playoff time comes around, our guys will be ready. It’s all about matchups in a 7 game series and I believe we present alot of different looks and problems for other teams. We have slashers, shooters, low post presence and great ball pressure. Need to really crash the boards come playoff time though. I’m looking forward to the second season. They way we have struggled during the regular season will make it that much sweeter as we start picking off teams series by series. GO CELT’S!!!! Pride and Passion baby!!!
by VikingsCeltics on Mar 16, 2010 10:19 AM EDT reply actions
I Hope They Go Deep into the Playoffs
It will enhance the trade value of the older players. But I’m expecting a 2nd round exit.
Good Morning Brick sir
I think Brick now sees two paths:
One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total elimination. Let us pray he has the wisdom to choose correctly for all of us..
Just kidding old timer……
I wasn’t too excited about last night …..glad to see it …..but….. I need to see less post game interviews with silly answers and more wins….I think we can win some big games as I haveplenty of faith…………….. but just shut up and play hard for 48 minutes. You beat the Pistons divided by Zero…
Is it Soup Yet?
while i agree with the desire to see more wins (i.e. consistency)
I wonder: Why so bothered by meaningless post-game quotes?
Folks seem to read way to much in every utterance by Doc, Sheed, KG, Perk, etc. These guys are not great orators. They are basketball players (and coach). I just want them to play well and entertain me on the court.
Winning isn't everything
I’ve been reading all the complaining about our aging stars. Enough.
Brickowski is right, the team is getting older. We’re not going to win it this year, or next.
But look at the bright side. We’ve been blessed with a championship and let’s enjoy this wonderful bunch of stars as they get older and fight against the ravages of time.
Winning isn’t everything. Character and drama mean a lot. KG is one of the most
charismatic players of the modern game. What a treat to watch him – win or lose.
PP has been with us forever, show some respect.
The glass is more than half full as a Celtic fan.
Well put. No matter what happens, there will be plenty of drama. These guys will not go down without a fight.
I sure as hell dont want to see them is round 2!
"Morning yall up early w/ the babies watchn Dora. Seems Lamar can't keep my name out his mouth maby I need 2 put my sons shitty diaper n it"~Matt Barnes
*in round 2
Grammar Fail
"Morning yall up early w/ the babies watchn Dora. Seems Lamar can't keep my name out his mouth maby I need 2 put my sons shitty diaper n it"~Matt Barnes
mmmmm and others
You won’t find a bigger fan than me or too many longer term fans than me. I will always be a Celtic fan and consider myself (rightly or wrongly) a realistic hopeful fan who always wants to fight until the last buzzer.
I don’t like whiners and and I don’t like people giving up but I also hate players or coaches being interviewed who throw out words that don’t mean much especially when you have kind of sucked lately….
I always liked Bobby Knight post game interviews ….he refused to answer stupid question by simply giving stupid answers and that’s what the Celtics should do more often. When you are asked a stupid question like “have your turned the corner” then simply say “I don’t know how to answer that question – why not buy a ticket to the next game and see for yourself”
Is it Soup Yet?
and mmmmmm with all due respect -
you seem to be the one who gets a little to upset by mere utterances in here whether it be about rebounds or comments about post game comments…..
Is it Soup Yet?
Not upset at all.
Just trying for clarity on rebounds – its the same sort of issue in Baseball, where we struggle to get folks to look past batting average and RBIs.
On the other thing, I mostly was just puzzled on why KGs comments seemed to bother you so much. I agree they were vapid. But he’s sorta required to spew something. I guess my expectations are low in that area.
we need more post game intereviews like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OpxnmeIiUk&feature=related
Is it Soup Yet?
Master Po...you`re much too young!
You only remember Heinsohn as a coach & broadcaster.
shoulda been two last year
darn injuries…
malcontents....the lot of you
by dasandruler on Mar 16, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
championships that is
malcontents....the lot of you
by dasandruler on Mar 16, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Respect for the Accomplishments of Aging Stars is Fine
and I enjoyed the championship as much as anyone. And I’d love to see them go down fighting. Remember the Alamo!
But you can’t let these sentiments cloud your perception of reality or your judgment as to what needs to be done going forward.
On these matters you have to be Belichickian. If it improves the long term prospects of the franchise, you trade Richard Semour for a draft pick without blinking an eye.
reality is -
the playoffs are coming, and the celtics will be dancing -
.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
Brick
why are you so insistent on playing GM? Why don’t you play Risk or Sims instead? You might get the feeling of actually accomplishing something.
Yeah, we all know, the Celtics are old, and yes, rebuilding is nigh. You don’t get inducted into Mensa for carping on this on every thread. It’s common knowledge. But your assumption that the team has nothing left is moronic and that they will be out in the second round. Are you a soothsayer? Do you know ahead of time how the playoffs will play out?
Brick nor I know anymore about how the playoffs will turn out than anyone else on this blog
However, it seems there are plenty of people willing to write that they still believe that the C’s can win it all. That is fine with me. Just as it is fine for me and Brick and others to write that they believe the Celtics will be golfing after the second round. That is what the comment section is for — opinions.
As pointed out before
Saying they “can” win is reasonable, and as you say, an opinion. Saying they “can’t” win, is a prophesy, leaving no room for error, and exposing the writer’s certainty at a time when certainty is impossible. These positions are not intellectually, logically or even morally equivalent.
But if you say that you do not believe they will win – no problem.
I believe you
But I know you can’t wait for the playoffs, because in your heart, you so WANT to be proven wrong… and you think just maybe you will be. :)
I think the focus for the C’s should be to get that third seed, just in case we see the Hawks in the second round. We need the crowd to be the 6th man in that series. Granted the Hawks beat us 4 times this season, but I do not think they can do it again in a 7 game series. The C’s will be rested, practiced and not playing any back to backs. Plus the revenge factor will be huge. I would not be surprised if KG comes out in that series breathing flames and chewing raw meat off a bone.
If we got the 3rd seed...
We would not play the Hawks. We would play the Magic. There is really no scenario where we play the Hawks. UNless the Hawks beat the Magic or The Cavs and I don’t think can beat either.
The focus should be in developing consistency with the current roster
which is FINALLY stable after this whole year of injuries and flux.
They’ve barely played a handful of games (and even fewer practices) with a consistent set of rotation players (especially THESE final guys). If you don’t think that makes a difference in quality of play then you have no clue. NBA championship-level basketball is a team game that involves all the parts.
This team HAS the raw ability. That is apparent from the many spurts of dominance. What they haven’t shown is consistent quality of play. Too many sloppy errors and deviations from the gameplan.
THAT is what Doc will try to address in these final 16 games.
agree
if doc pulls it off— they’ll make a movie outta this thing.
malcontents....the lot of you
by dasandruler on Mar 16, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
So how do you explain Cleveland's success?
Having to work Jamison into the lineup; having to play without Shaq now; having to play without Mo Williams and Delonte for many games this season, etc. Not saying Cleveland has had the serious injuries that the C’s ahve had, but they certainly have had their share.
well, removing KG from our lineup
created a much bigger hole, with much bigger ripples throughout (shifting Sheed into the starting PF role, shifting BBD / Scal / Shelden into Sheed’s minutes) than I think any of the injuries to Cleveland did. Losing Paul for a stretch was similarly of very high impact.
Another way to look at it is that clearly losing LBJ would be a bigger blow to Cleveland than even losing KG was for us. Conversely, his being there all year meant that huge reason for their success has been stable.
On the other hand, I do think that Cleveland has demonstrated much better overall depth than we have. They are both top heavy, in their reliance on Lebron, while we depend mainly on 3-4 main contributors, but their supporting cast outside their starting 5 is deeper than ours, or at least has certainly out-performed ours.
Once you get past LBJ, their roster is better able to interchange parts. The Celtics depend on very specialized roles acting in balance and when one is missing, it really falls apart.
There is an advanced stat called ‘Win Shares (WS)’ that purports to calculate the raw number of wins that the player has contributed to that team that year. I won’t try to explain it, or even argue its merits but it is interesting to see how it distributes for BOS and CLE:
Boston Win Shares:
Rondo 8.4
Ray 6.5
KG 6.3
Pierce 6.3
Perk 4.6
Sheed 3.2
House 1.5
BBD 1.5
Shelden 1.5
Tony 1.3
Daniels 1.2
everybody else 0.5 or less
Cleveland Win Shares:
Lebron 16.6
Varejao 7.1
Williams 4.9
Parker 4.0
Hickson 3.3
Shaq 3.2
Delonte 2.9
Gibson 2.6
Z 2.3
Moon 2.2
Jawad 1.0
Jamison 0.8
everybody else 0.5 or less
Notice how, even though Cleveland is extremely dependent on LBJ among their top 5 – outside of those guys they have gotten much more contribution spread deep into their bench? Whereas for the Celtics, once you get past Sheed, we’ve gotten minimal contribution from our bench.
That has made them more tolerant of injuries – outside of LBJ himself, of course.
Part of the reason for that is because KG, Pierce, Daniels and Davis all lost a lot of time to injury, and played at a lesser level while they were rehabbing. For example, while Delonte’s illness may be just as serious, his rehab time from a physical standpoint, was quicker, and he could play at a higher level.
by thirstyboots18 on Mar 16, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
big difference
No comparison. Cleveland’s offense is run by Lebron, and Lebron only. No matter who else is out, the team offense is fine as long as Lebron runs the show. Remember, Mo Williams and West are NOTHING like Rondo…they don’t create by themselves…they receive from Lebron…replace them with anybody else on their roster, and they win. Their offense is brain-dead (but effective). I.E Lebron dribbles, Lebron gets double-teamed, Lebron passes across the court to open man, Cavs score. And oh yeah, they are BETTER without Shaq (except against Orlando/LA).
No comparison to Celtics having both their leading scorer, and their leading defensive force out. That’s HUGE. THEY run the team (along with Rondo), and with them gone, it is literally equivalent to Lebron being out. Seriously, when these two play badly, this team ALWAYS losses, and for good reason.
Ashtray Bouquet
not bashing, just true
Everybody knows the Cavs are Lebron-centric. I mean, I hate the Lakers way more than the Cavs, but their offense (when working) is a work of art. When they work together well, it is infuriating (but admittedly pretty) to watch.
Watching the Cavs on offense is boring as hell. YET, it is very, very, very effective. Often it consists of Lebron making ONE pass to the open man. That is not sophisticated ball movement, that is the exploitation of double team defense in finding the one open (unguarded) man. Notice how my opinion doesn’t change the fact though…that the Cavs’ offense works very well. I normally don’t ascribe to what Sir Chuck Barkley says, but even though he (and I) think the Cavs are playing the best ball RIGHT NOW, he thinks their offense is brutal, slow, and just boring as hell to watch. On the other side of things, I can say I love watching the Phoenix Suns offense, DESPITE the fact that I fully know they aren’t going anywhere.
Hey, I mean the Celtic defense is what won it for them in 2008, and to a certain extent it is not pretty to watch either…brutal grit. The Cavs’ offense is the same. Sans Lebron (obviously spectacular in his own right), it is boring, but effective…and it may win it for them this year.
The point is that the Celtics require many more (specific) pieces in their offense in order to succeed. They don’t have the luxury of a transcendent playmaker who can also score at will (Lebron). Rondo may be a fantastic playmaker in his own right, but he is definitely not yet a TRUE, CONSISTENT offensive threat. With that in mind, the Celtics need all 5 starters to play in concert with eachother…2,3,4,5 passes, easy shots, distributed scoring. For this reason, when one or several key players is out, injuries to the Celtics are simply not equivalent to those on the Cavs.
Ashtray Bouquet
Age and Perk
It might have been Belichickian to unload Leon. But the loss of Leon took
a whole lot of heart out of this team and the fans. Instead we got Sheed.
The other main point many have have missed is how slow and stiff Perk is.
It’s not only that the big three are aging but the young buck center is so slow to jump that he never gets a rebound unless it bounces right to him. I’d say half his rebound count is on missed free throws. It makes it so much harder on KG because of Perk. Leon would jump halfway across the floor to get a rebound. I miss Leon for his play and his wonderful
character. He didn’t trash talk but let his play speak for him.
Among players qualifying for the NBA rebounding title
Perkins is ranked 11th in the NBA for Defensive Rebounding Percentage at 24.5%.
(KG has not played enough to qualify, but does have a very nice 25.6% DRB%).
Powe hasn’t played much, only 7 games. But he is currently posting a DRB% of 25.7. That will fluctuate a lot before it settles down.
All those are very very good rebounding rates.
Note that individual numbers are somewhat dependent on who you play with.
Teams as a whole get roughly 70-75% of defensive rebound chances. If you have two or three really good rebounders, they each will end up with a smaller share than if you have one really good rebounder on a team – hence guys like Howard, Camby & Boozer post monster numbers of 30% or so. Teams like the Cavs and Celtics spread the rebounds around more, especially on defense.
forgot to add
Career DRB%
Perkins: 22.0%
Powe: 19.0%
I would say the Celtics often gave up key rebounds in key moments.
It is all about timing, positioning, concentration and reaction (age)
by getthat18now on Mar 16, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
celtics
Boston looked better last night, than any game since December Granted it was only Detroit, but the effort was there. I believe they would have beaten Cleveland, if they had played that way Sunday. They play hard when they want, to and can beat anyone, its just a Question of the condition of the team, when they go to the playoffs. Right now they seem to be peaking out at the right time. I believe they will surprise people. Remember they dont have to play four good teams, only two, to get to the finals, and there will be upsets. Either Orlando, or Cleveland will go down in the first or second round, it happens every year. Same with the West. Ilike there chances.
stats
Stats don’t lie but they can be deceiving.
Perk’s rebounds per 48 minutes rank him 65th in the league this year.
But just watch any situation when there are 2 or 3 guys around the basket,
Perk hardly ever snags the board.
if you filter that to just guys who qualify for the rebounding title
he is ranked 15th in defensive rebounds per 36 minutes.
The problem with putting a lot of stock in the rebound totals (whether per 36 OR per 48) is that the Celtic’s opponents as a rule don’t take very many shots per game – and thus there are simply fewer defensive rebounding opportunities.
That is why it is better to use the DRB% rates – they give a better indication of : If a rebound is in the air, what are the chances this guy is going to grab it?
The Celtics don’t, as a rule, put a lot of emphasis on offensive rebounds so it is not really fair to use those as a comparison. Not to mention the fact that they miss the fewest shots in the NBA so they have even fewer offensive rebound chances.
Stats can be deceiving. So can anecdotal impressions.
Reassess what you think you are seeing. Watch more than one defensive rebounding situation – Perk will grab 1 out of 4 of those.
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