The Unspoken Truth
by DRJ1 on Mar 17, 2010 9:18 AM EDT
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PrintPaul Pierce has had his share of physical problems this season. It started with an extremely serious – actually potentially life-threatening – right knee infection on December 24. To this date, we have no idea how or why that knee got infected. (Knees do not get infected spontaneously in healthy people – which would exclude, e.g., people with immune problems, etc. – there is typically a preceding surgical event, like a routine drainage, or some other trauma. But we know of no condition that Paul had/has that could have caused this.) The whole episode remains a near-total mystery. And don't expect the team to ever clarify the situation: that's not how they do things.
After a slow return, Paul then suffered a strained left foot and a sprained thumb around the All-Star break. Since returning from those latest injuries, he has struggled to climb back to the high level of physical well-being and performance he exhibited in the beginning of this season. And he’s still struggling.
Is it his age? At 32, he’s not going to drop that far just because of age. Is he still "recovering"? Maybe. But none of his ailments, since the knee infection, has been serious enough to warrant extended recovery time. So what’s going on?
Because we don’t know what’s wrong with Paul, the possibility that he might not get all the way back must exist. That’s so clear, it’s almost a tautology. (So please don’t argue it.) We might never see the old Paul again this season. Or we might. We don’t know. Right now, I put the odds squarely at 50:50.
So what if the old Paul never returns? Can this team win without him? Leaving Perkins aside, Paul is the one starter who is most replaceable on this team. The one they can most easily win without. Reason: we have backup. Both Quis and now, apparently, Fin, can fill in for Paul well enough. TA is an option as well, depending on the team’s needs at the time. The era when this team had to have Paul to carry it to the promised land is, thankfully, over.
And let’s not forget Bill Walker, who has had some spectacular games lately, easily outscoring and outperforming Paul.
Oh. Wait. Scratch that. Billy’s playing for the Knicks now. I forgot. Thanks Doc (for staying almost completely ignorant of Walker’s talents until after he was gone).
Ah, but I digress. That’s ok. This is done.
Be respectful and keep it clean. Thanks.
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Patience
Greg Payne has an article about PP’s injuries. I agree with him. Though PP has nagging injuries, and the most severe of it is an enigma (the knee infection), we should give him proper time to get back into shape just as we did and are doing to KG. I’ve been an athlete, played soccer (although non-pro), and injuries are very difficult to come back from. I experienced it (knee and foot injury).
With regards to Walker, he is inconsistent in New York. score 20+ points one game, score 5 the next game. I am not very sure of the stats that he put up, with a D’Antoni system, stats are inflated or skewed. What I like him is his use of athleticism and physique to defend. He may not be well polished defender, but proper guidance and training could have made him a better defender for us. Unfortunately, Doc hates youngsters, unless your a point guard or a center who shows lots of potential.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
Yes, intimidation is the key to domination.
by Marjun Raposon on Mar 17, 2010 10:26 AM EDT reply actions
walker sucks
cant believe all these fn people crying about walker
by Balltime200 on Mar 18, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
He certainly didn't imress anybody tonight
But… if jbuell comes in here, I can’t talk about this anymore. We made a deal… we’re not going to discuss this (almost completely irrelevant) subject anymore, with him :)
i do wish we got rid of scalabrine though and maybe kept giddens, at least. dunno
by Balltime200 on Mar 18, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't like Giddens at all
Scal’s even better than Giddens, in my view. But I think Boston had little choice… I think NY wanted Walker… and since he was just warming the end of the bench here, we agreed.
His knew injury was "life-threatening?" Where do you get this stuff?
Honestly, I like your writing style (it is good), but over-the-top does not even begin to describe some of your opinions. Keep it up though. It makes this blog better than any other.
And I enjoy our little skirmishes
… and think you are, underneath, a great fan.
But… you do, from time to time, make some strong statements without bothering to verify them. In this Hyper-Information Age of ours, there’s no good reason for that.
Just google knee infection, or infectious arthritis, and you’ll get a lot of info. What you won’t find easily is anything about “life threatening”, because it only gets to that if it’s not properly treated, and they don’t talk about that in most places. So just think about it, or take my word for it – a knee infection that’s not treated properly is life-threatening, via sepsis.
The Celtics announced that Paul’s condition was “serious” at the time. (Just google “knee infection serious” and you’ll see.) Do they have a habit of OVERstating these things? Nope. Quite the opposite.
And that’s such a small part of the piece. Didn’t you find anything more interesting than that?
You do not know that the infection was potentially "life-threatening"
And I feel it is irresponsible to post that it was. You have no direct information that it was potentially “life-threatening” and probably should not post such conjecture. The internet says lots of things — does not make them facts. Especially when you do not have any facts about the situation. Just go back to your posts about Kobe and his knee. Totally overstated and blown out of proportion.
You only degrade yourself
..with these wholly inaccurate statements.
They rushed him to the hospital in the middle of the night. They announced that it was “serious”. The problem itself is known to be very serious. Untreated… well, it’s never untreated. But you know what, you go on and believe whatever you want to believe. Luckily, it’s irrelevant to the rest of the world. And this whole point is irrelevant to the subject at hand, so my bad for even responding to your nonsense.
Your post is irresponsible
I was a newspaper reporter for 6 years. Back in the day, you actually had to have facts before a story would be printed. And, you actually had editors who reviewed every story and asked questions. The worst thing about the Internet is anyone can write and “publish” anything they want, regardless of whether it is factual or not, and there are no editors to ask the questions. Please show me one fact you have that Pierce’s knee infection was potentially life threatening. I guess to you “serious” = “potentially life threatening.” Sorry, but that is irresponsible conjecture.
I give up
…and will not waste any more time trying to explain this to you.
I think the piece is very clear, and needs no further explanation. If those words bother you, pretend they are not there. Taking those 4 words out (“actually potentially life-threatening”) makes zero difference to the points of the piece.
If those 4 words make no difference to the points of the piece
then maybe you should just take them out.
I would
…if I thought anybody who wasn’t just looking for trouble thought they were “irresponsible”. Some may think they are wrong, but that’s not reason enough to remove them… else nobody could ever hold an opinion and chaos would reign.
Their message is completely peripheral to the purpose and message of the piece, that’s true and why they can be removed with zero effect. But just so you know, I know they ARE true… because knee infections are both rare in normal, healthy people (unless there is unusual prior trauma or, more often, a surgical procedure on that knee) and they are extremely serious if left untreated – serious as in able to cause sepsis and death (like any suppurative infection inside the body).
Note: The suspicion with Paul was that he had had a prior drainage procedure of that knee, which caused the infection. That would certainly explain it. But if that’s it, then whatever caused him to need the drainage is probably still there – and a possible explanation of his slow recovery.
But I digress. The point is: vinnie (not even gonna talk about cavsfan, who isn’t serious) is not for me an arbiter of what is or is not responsible. Reason: he’s always looking for SOMETHING to fight about. Which is fine, I don’t mind… just this time, he picked 4 little peripheral words, and wrong-headedly, yet ignored a whole piece’s worth of other facts and conclusions – which, I think, could also be attacked or at least discussed. At least then we’d be talking about the subject AT HAND, as opposed to the irrelevancy of whether or not knee infections are life threatening.
Yep -- Just like you knew about Kobe's torn Meniscus
I keep on you because you make stuff up and pretend to be in the know about injuries. That’s all.
Tony Allen
Before next season the C’s should dump Tony Allen and get whatever they can for him. How many chances will he get before the C’s realize he’s a waste of time and money? He’s now 28 years old and has never lived up to be the player that C’s management thought he can be.
It’s frustrating as hell watching him play.
by Celtics9Lakers2 on Mar 17, 2010 11:01 AM EDT reply actions
I don't know about mystery
I automatically connect the dots to when he hurt his knee in the championship. then they probably shot him up with something to get him through the duration.
malcontents....the lot of you
DRJ1
Celticsblog conspiracy theorist
by Scal4theallstargame on Mar 17, 2010 7:35 PM EDT reply actions
You wanna explain
…where in this post there is any mention of conspiracy?
“The worst thing about the Internet is anyone can write and "publish" anything they want, regardless of whether it is factual or not…”……“vinnie” (co-conspirator)
Lol
Serves me right for trying. Lol. What a bunch………..
Led by vinnie
…our resident anti-intellectual. Nothing logical passes his filter !
How come so many of you
…read a whole post about Paul, whether he will or will not get better, whether this team can win without him, or not – and all you can talk about is 4 words that are completely peripheral to the subject, pertaining to something that happened months ago?
And those 4 words are about a subject that, OBVIOUSLY, none of you knows anything about. So instead of trying to understand, and maybe learn something, you laugh at the thing you don’t understand. See, that’s what it means to be “anti-intellectual”. Back in the day, you’d be burning books.
But hey… I still think it’s funny. I’m still laughin
The reason why people disacgree with you is
Your post was not very well thought out. You made a "loose change" type post. You called draining an infected knee potentially life threatening when in reality people don’t die from infected knees. That’s trying to sensationalize something which is not there.
Your trying to say that the team hasn’t told you about what happened with the infection and what’s actually going on but in reality they have. Its was an infected knee, they drained the extra fluid that built up, these things happen and it may take up to 3 months to fully recover from a proceedure like this depending on the severity of the case.
You said in your post "Knees do not get infected spontaneously in healthy people" when the fact people in perfect health can get infected knees, particularly if they get involved in regular physical activity (like Paul Pierce).
These comments are all false or misleading that that’s why everyone’s on your case.
by Scal4theallstargame on Mar 18, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
You should read what you write about
..before posting such patently false, and truly silly information. Talk about “loose change”.
I did not say that “draining an infected knee is potentially life threatening.” Got that? It’s simple English. It says that the CONDITION of a knee infection (especially when the patient needs to be rushed to the hospital in the dead of night, and with no known cause) is a life-threatening condition.
You obviously do not know the first thing about this subject, and you clearly did not take the trouble to actually READ what I wrote, to say nothing of understanding it.
Your incredibly wrong statements of “these things happen”, and “people in perfect health get infected knees, particularly if they get involved in regular physical activity” — belie any notion that you know anything about this subject. (How many other NBA players have EVER gotten spontaneous knee infections? Are you kidding with this?? Lol… I wish I could tell you just how crazy your statements are, but the rules here forbid what I would really like to say.)
Your statements tend to prove that, as I suggested, you are one of the “laughing know-nothing” anti-intellectuals, following vinnie’s lead over the cliff of reason.
Really… I know it’s hard… but try to at least read a post before you comment on it. And learning something about its subject is also a good idea.
Another reason why people are on your case
Is because you made comments you can’t back up and whenever somebody disagrees or questions those comments you simply call them anti-intellectual rather than backing them up.
by Scal4theallstargame on Mar 18, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, this is the first time
I’ve ever said that.
And you, and your predecessors, did not simply “disagree”. You, or your predecessors with whom you say you agree, called what I said “irresponsible” and “sensationalization.”
If you want to disagree, do it. Make your case. Bring evidence, or at least informed opinion. None of you have done that…. of course, it’s impossible… because you are all dead wrong, and don’t know what you’re talking about.
That happens sometimes. This is one of those times.
But you know what… take your time, do some research. You have the whole World Wide Web at your fingertips. In here lives much of the accumulated wisdom of the human race. You should be able to find some cogent facts to back you up. When you find them… let me know. If you are right, I will admit it and do the appropriate penance.
I think
That people are responding to the general tenor of your posts lately which are in the “he can’t REALLY believe that” file as often as not. Which is to say they’re struggling to take your ideas seriously sometimes. No offense intended.
by TheOutletPass on Mar 18, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, then they should endeavor first
..to read it properly… these people are misquoting and misrepresenting. Second, before commenting on how wrong something is, they should try to learn a LITTLE about the subject, since they have chosen to comment on it. Third, the fact that these people have chosen this HIGHLY peripheral subject – a small 4-word point that pertains to events that are months old – rather than the obvious real (and very relevant) subject matter, indicates their intention not to participate in any kind of valuable debate, but to get some kind of easy laugh by making fun of something they know nothing about. And at the same time, sound like they do.
So you see… it’s pretty nauseating. And funny. Lol… can’t help it, I’m laughing…
And yes, OutletPass... I know I push the envelope
I like that. I think the truth is usually outside the envelope (aka “box”). Reason: the envelope is where the vast majority of people are, and expect everything to be. But we’re talking here about OUTSTANDING events and things. Outstanding people, and outstanding accomplishments. It’s unusual for something to become “outstanding” if it lives only inside the envelope. The envelope, by definition, contains all things regular, normal, popular, standard. NOT “outstanding.” Outstanding lives outside the envelope.
So if you want to understand something outstanding… you need to push the envelope. Or tear it up altogether.
(Sorry for the excessive metaphorization… hope that made sense to you.)
(Btw, you now have CavsFan on your side. Think about that.) (Ok, well… sorta. It’s funnier if we just accept that you do. :)
Just realized that Scal4 said I "can't back up" my statements
…and vinnie accused me of “making stuff up.” So… here is some backup.
RISK FACTORS for knee infections include:
Prior surgical procedure, sepsis (blood infection), gonorrhea, syphilis, HIV/AIDS, and tuberculosis – among others. (Serious enough for you?)
Reference: http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec05/ch065/ch065c.html
PROGNOSIS AND TREAMENT:
“An infected joint can be destroyed within days or sometimes within hours without prompt treatment. Antibiotics must be started as soon as an infection is suspected, even before the lab has identified the infecting organism. Antibiotics that kill the most likely bacteria are given until the infecting organism is identified, usually within 48 hours of testing the joint fluid. Antibiotics are given by vein (intravenously) at first. If the antibiotics are effective against the infecting bacteria, improvement usually occurs within 48 hours. As soon lab results come in (cultures that ID the organism & its susceptibilities to treatment), the antibiotic may be changed to a more effective one.
“The doctor often removes pus with a needle to prevent its accumulation, because accumulated pus may damage a joint. If drainage with a needle is difficult or unsuccessful, arthroscopy or surgery may be needed. Sometimes a tube is left in place to drain the pus.”
Reference: ibid
===
To save time and space, I’m leaving out direct quotes about what happens if this problem is not treated immediately, or if the wrong treatment (wrong antibiotic) is given (and not corrected). In short, the patient can easily lose the knee, or his life.
A suppurative (meaning: involving pus) infection like this inside the body (without a drainage path to the outside) is EXTREMELY serious. This is no doubt why the Celtics said at the time that it was, in fact, “very serious”. Remember the long faces on Doc and KG?
If untreated, the knee can quickly get destroyed, and the infection can easily spread to the bloodstream. If that happens, death often ensues, if the correct treatment is not aggressively provided. Put it this way: if this had happened 80 years ago, it’s fair to say that Paul would probably not have survived.
Now I have no doubt that SOME ONE of you will take some phrase in here and accuse me of sensationalizing the story. No doubt. Just remember that this started with just 4 little words. You blew this up. Now I’m just hoping that there is SOME point at which it becomes too embarrassing for you to push further. (Talkin’ to you, vinnie.)
If you wanna come back at me, come back. But bring some facts with you this time.
ok
That’s good. This article clearly states the risk factors of a joint infection and proves that Paul Pierce may have died (even though I will still argue strongly that it’s a long shot) or may have some permanent damage to his knee (even if is permanent it’s minor).
Once again though you only decided to mention the knee infection (Septic arthritis) that damages knees quickly, gives you a serious fever and endangers your life. You conveniently forgot to mention the other types of knee infections which are not life threatening like Knee Bursitis, Osteomyelitis, Cellulitis
I need you to answer a few questions.
Do you believe that PP’s life was in danger before the surgery?
Do you think that his knee infection is part of an underlying issue, ie HIV, Gonorrhoea, herpes?
Or have you just written this post to get people to give your theory some thought and get people to think outside the box?
by Scal4theallstargame on Mar 18, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Clarifications
(1) – Bursitis is not referred to as “knee infection”. It’s referred to as “bursitis.” Anything is possible, but that would be very weird. It also doesn’t require drainage.
- Osteomyelitis is worse than infection of the knee, more dangerous.
- Cellulitis is never called a “knee infection.” Never. And it certainly doesn’t require drainage, which Paul was reported to have that first night.
So there was nothing “convenient” about my not mentioning those… they were not in the story and didn’t fit with the known facts at all.
(2) I didn’t even mention septic arthritis originally. I said only “potentially life-threatening” to sort of round out the picture of his still-mysterious problem from back then. It was never explained how he got it, btw… so it’s kinda interesting to know how serious it really was. It was vinnie, and then you (I will ignore CavsFan’s “input”… for obvious reasons) who turned that little bit of info into a big deal. It certainly, and obviously, wasn’t my intention.
(3) Not sure about your first question. By “surgery”, do you mean the drainage he had that first night? If so – absolutely, his life was in danger prior to that. My strong sense is that if they hadn’t taken him to the hospital, hadn’t started him on powerful antibiotics, his life would have been very much in danger. Of course – he did get the treatment, so that’s not really pertinent to the reality of the situation, except as a measure of how serious his problem was.
(4) I guarantee that they tested Paul for many of the various risk factors. HIV testing is a virtual certainty, along with some others. My “opinion” about the results is really irrelevant, because it is what it is, and I don’t have access to the test results. So it’s a guess at best. But if you ask (for whatever reason) – no, I do not believe the risk factors you listed were involved. But I really don’t know. Most likely, in my view, is a prior surgical procedure, like a routine drainage. That would bring up the question of WHY he needed routine drainage… which would be directly interesting to us today, because whatever it was (like say, chronic arthritis?… which would be worsened by exercise) is very probably still there.
(5) I knocked off this post as an alternative view to Greg’s post that morning – as to what is going on with Paul. I felt he left out certain important issues, too long to put in a comment. The 3 words “potentially life-threatening” were never even close to the focus of this post… which is obvious since that subject is only addressed in those 3 words and nowhere else. Until, that is, vinnie, and then you, got a hold of it. (Again, I’m gonna ignore CavsFan… who posts a lot, but says nothing.)
Meanwhile, Paul looked better the other night. So here’s hoping he continues upward. But if he goes south on us, do you believe we can win it all anyway? As I described? (Btw… that was the point I thought would get a lot of flack… but it got NONE. Lol.)
Yes
If you asked me the same question 3 months ago (December 19) "Can we win it all with PP?" I would have laughed and said yes and ………. I would still say yes but he would have to play like PP was playing at the start of the year in order for us to do that. If he’s not then I would say our chances are slim.
by Scal4theallstargame on Mar 19, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't bother anymore
DRJ1 is a sensationalist who likes to pretend he is on the inside when it comes to injuries. I should repost the stuff he wrote when Kobe injured his knew several months ago. It was hysterical.
You are what you write
And you write a lot of nonsense. (You even have the Kobe story wrong. Of course.) A true “know-nothing”, sad to say.
Just to remind you what you wrote when Kobe hurt his knee
Before I get into some of the details you posted, I want to remind everyone that Kobe did not miss one game as a result of this knee injru. Here are some of the things you wrote:
First, the headline: Kobe injures knee: They’ll say he’s OK, but he’s not (You were 100 percent wrong)
Then this: Kobe came down awkwardly on his left knee and immediately went down holding that knee in a lot of pain. He got up gingerly, walked around a bit, then came back to play, apparently alright. He was smiling in the post-game interviews… but unfortunately, he’s in trouble, and I think he knows it.
And this: That’s the MCL getting AT LEAST strained. Possibly torn. (Actually, I think it’s likely torn. The knee cannot normally get to that angle without damaging the MCL.)
You then started to back down a little in the comments, but still asserted that the media was ignoring how bad the injury might be and someone (you) had to write about it: Every media outlet is completely ignoring the evidence of their own eyes. SOMEBODY needs to say something, don’t you think? I mean, this isn’t an earth-shattering event or anything, obviously… but it is indicative of the state of information flow in our society. We have SO many ways to express ourselves… yet nobody stands up to say: “Wait a minute. I saw what I saw, and it’s not what you’re describing.”
You then went on to explain that Kobe is either a freak of nature or was injected with steroids after he played the next game and put up great numbers: Hard to understand how they could let Kobe play today… a couple of possibilities come to mind: (1) his ligaments are abnormally flexible and he really is ok, or (2) they shot his knee full of steroids and lidocaine and put him out there to play. That latter is so insanely stupid, I can’t believe it’s true. But then hey, we’re talking about the Lakers here. Anything is possible.
And you then continued to insist that the knee was a problem: The fact that Kobe played doesn’t change what happened. It changed the apparent severity of it… but that knee is in trouble. Nothing can change that
And in case you missed it, here is how Kobe played in the next two games after this horrible knee injury: 73 points, 16 Rebounds, 12 Assists, and 6 steals. I am done here now and done reading ridiculous posts that speculate about injuries.
Let's make a deal
About Kobe: The headline was wrong, but didn’t actually say anything specific (like most headlines). None of the content was wrong. I said his MCL looked like it was at least strained, and likely torn. That is still true. You can play through a strain, and that’s what he likely did. I was careful never to say that his MCL WAS torn, just that IT LOOKED LIKE it tore… which is also true. I was certainly wrong in my opinion that he would probably not play, etc… but that was a guess; the bottom line of what it looked like was correct.
Can’t be right all the time, and it ended up not torn. In the original piece, I did carefully state that “if he DOES come back” and play, it would indicate something special about Kobe, etc. I.e., the possibility that he did not tear the ligament was always part of the original piece, and I never made the definitive statement that he tore the MCL.
“Steroids” refers to corticosteroids, often used to reduce inflammation in acutely injured areas (not the “steroids” you read about in the news). I don’t know that they used it, but they sure could have. So? What’s “inaccurate” about that. It’s reasonable conjecture.
And yes, that knee is in trouble. One day, he will probably move or land the wrong way, and that’ll be that. It’s happened before to Kobe, btw. And you know that this is wrong, somehow? How?
But I LOVE the last part of your post. I’m glad to hear it. You came in here, and somehow managed to make most of the comments all about 3 insignificant words. (I helped in that though; my bad.) I had hoped we would get some interesting debate on Paul’s future, and whether the team can win without him too, but instead, we got a major discussion on, of all things, knee infections. But this is not new for you. You’re always looking to start an argument, almost always over something silly or obvious. And as in this case, you rarely add anything to the collective understanding.
If you are “done” and apparently sick of dealing with all this, I will make you a deal. Let’s agree to NOT COMMENT ON EACH OTHER’S FANPOSTS. You stay out of mine, and I will stay out of yours. Fair enough? Deal? Hope so. If so, good… Done and done.
Kobe and a hand of poker
This situation is similar to, say, Hold’em. Say you pick up AA, and your opponent is holding 22. Before the flop, your odds of winning are better than 82%. He raises, you push all-in. A 3rd deuce shows up, and you lose.
Would anyone come back after that hand and blame you for pushing all-in? Clearly, there is no such person. But that’s what YOU are doing when you accuse me of being "wrong" back then. This is what you don’t understand. Everything I wrote that you are attacking was written BEFORE THE FLOP – before the facts were known. Mine was a PROBABILISTIC statement. Saying Kobe "probably would not play" was the same as believing you have the better hand in poker.
But sometimes you lose, even when the odds are in your favor. What ACTUALLY happens in such cases is NOT very relevant to whether the ORIGINAL prediction was a good one or not. Just like the poker hand.
If you want to attack that piece, you must attack the ORIGINAL PREDICTION. You must argue that Kobe’s knee did NOT look like it had been injured, that I was wrong in making that statement. Coming back after the facts are known with "You got it wrong" is itself COMPLETELY WRONG-HEADED. Logically, it’s identical to calling someone foolish for pushing all-in just because he lost the hand.
Hope that clarifies, a little.
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