Is Rondo Scoring Less The Key To Winning?
by Jeff Clark on Mar 18, 2010 6:12 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics News & Links
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PrintInteresting quotes from Doc and Rondo today in the papers:
Rajon Rondo’s game has its point - BostonHerald.com
"Part of the stuff that happened in that stretch where all of the injuries happened was we needed Rondo to score more," coach Doc Rivers said. "We needed Perk (Kendrick Perkins) to score more, we needed Baby (Glen Davis) to look for it more, because we had all those guys out. And part of your rhythm getting screwed up a little is when everybody comes back now you have to revert back to your old roles, and it takes time. You’re trying to fit these guys in, (and) they’re not really ready, but we’re still trying to get them the ball. And we couldn’t score, but we’re still going to them because we know eventually (they have to step up). "So that’s part of all that, and Rondo understands that as well as anybody. The great part about him (is) he doesn’t care if he has 20 (points) or 20 assists. He’ll take either one. He’s fine with it."
Rondo echoed those sentiments:
"When I feel like I need to score and be aggressive, I try and do it, but otherwise, if we're rolling I don't have to take shots," he said. "And that's fine with me - as long as we win. Getting assists is better for me than scoring."
Gotta love that about him. He's a true point guard.
I'll say this though: I don't totally buy the excuse that too many people were being asked to pick up the scoring. There's no one reason why we were losing and big reason why we are winning now is because we are playing really, really bad teams. The true test of our current run is coming up as we face some tough Western teams like the Rockets, Mavs, Jazz, and Nugs.
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rondo scoring less is not the key to winning
rondo playing lockdown D, and looking to push the ball FIRST—-is a prerequisite for a championship. When he does that, everthing else— including his offense —falls in line. I think he’s the best player on the team, but lacks offensive instinct.
malcontents....the lot of you
Key to winning?
Playing “lottery-bound” teams at home!
I don't think that's it
I don’t think that Rondo scoring less is the cause and effect. I don’t think Rondo scoring less causes wins, but I think when Pierce and KG are both playing well, that’s what causes Rondo to score less and wins to come.
But maybe they score more because Rondo's passing more
…and better. Chicken / egg?
by DRJ1 on Mar 18, 2010 10:37 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i think the chicken egg goes rhe other way. when his assists are down so it looks like he’snot passing it’s because pp, ra, kg are 5 for 17 or something, so then rr tries to score. he is always looking to pass.
by Fan from VT on Mar 18, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Would tend to agree.
I’ve definitely noticed this effect.
Yes, I agree
I think that’s how it is too, most of the time. (Now… which one is the chicken and which is the egg? :)
Still, it’s something to think about. I think there are times when it goes the other way. I.e., there have been times when Rondo comes out firing, not passing enough, before our scorers have revealed their productivity for the night. Or he started to do it in the middle of a game for some reason. To the extent that happens, it’s something for him to avoid. (Something not obvious.)
I’m not sure Pierce + Garnett + Ray are effective enough anymore to shoulder a Championship quality team’s offense.
A strong chance that they’ll need Rondo to take a larger offensive role in order to compete at the highest level. To be more of a dominant player offensively.
I worry about a reduction in Rondo’s role offensively.
That's right
Who did. Shades of Abbott and Costello.
Rondo's improved offensive capability is very important
But distribution is goal #1, with his own offense to be used (a) opportunistically (obviously), and (b) when the Big 3 aren’t cutting it.
Not explaining this well ....
There is very little difference to me between being the guy who is asked to score the ball and being the guy asked to create the shot attempt. They are both making play and are both the go-to guy that has to shoulder the majority of the creative aspect to get his team a basket.
There is a big difference between being asked to be a guy who creates the offense for others and the guy who is asked to setup the table and allow the other guys to do the majority of the work. The difference between a ball dominant playmaker like Chris Paul and a point guard like Jason Kidd.
My reading of the landscape, the above article and past happenings, is that Doc wants Rondo to take more of a secondary role offensively behind the Big Three. Right or wrong, that is what I’m reading into it and reacting to. That’s where the reduced role part came from. If that is accurate, that bothers me because I’m not sure the Big Three are effective enough anymore to shoulder that responsibility.
I think getting Rondo more comfortable with being a chief go-to option for the Celtics should be a priority for the Celtics offense down the stretch of the season. If they fail to do that, I think we’ll see Boston being more effective in the short term (regular season) because they’re more comfortable with this setup but fail to become dynamic enough to win a title. I think they need Rondo to be a main go-to guy offensively to give their offense enough versatility + quality to be consistently effective offensively against tough minded defensive teams.
Gotcha
If Doc were saying that he wants Rondo to take a secondary role offensively behind the Big 3, I would, like you, be opposed. But it’s hard for me to see that in what Doc said, and even harder to believe that he would be that wrong-headed. Doc knows Rondo’s the key to the offense.
I like Doc’s point about having Rondo keep going to guys (like Paul, lately) who need to get their game back, even though they’re missing a lot of shots, because they need that guy to be right for the playoffs. Clearly the right thing to do. Two points:
- That’s still no excuse to go to that guy (e.g., Paul) when he’s ice cold and there is ONE play left in the game. I mean, winning should count for SOMETHING.
- Rondo and Doc both said Rondo’s as happy to get the assists as he is the get points. But… if he’s sending the ball to the cold guy, in order to improve that guy’s game, he’s NOT going to get too many assists, is he. Small point… interesting.
when rondo misses
it seems they don’t typically get an offensive rebound – so i’m fine with him dishing until his outside J improves unless he’s got a high percentage shot (taking it to the hole)
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
Rondo should be 4th option
He is not particularly reliable offensively. So if KG and PP and RA are on the floor let RR pick up the scraps.
by Celtico on Mar 18, 2010 8:55 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Keys to Winning for the Celtics
1. Better defense
2. Hitting jump shots
On the offensive side, they are a half court, jump shooting team that does not rebound particularly well. So the shots have to go in.
But they also need
…guys like Rondo, Quis, and Paul + Ray too, to drive to the hoop, keep the D honest.
by DRJ1 on Mar 18, 2010 10:44 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Odd - I coulda sworn the Celticz wuz strong in points in paint
Why yep, yep they is:
They attempt 35% of their shots close in. Their opponents attempt 33%.
They score 34.7 pts per game close in (43.7% of their FG points).
Their opponents score 30 pts per game close in (40%).
a +4.7 ppg margin on points in the paint is pretty significant.
Their eFG% for FGAs in ‘close’ (i.e. within the free throw line) is a hefty 61.7%!!!!!!!!
The C’s use the threat of perimeter shooting to open up the paint for high-percentage shots within the paint. They don’t really like to depend on jump shots.
You are absolutely correct that they HAVE to make their shots. That is why the Celtics work hard to take the highest percentage shots they can. They take the fewest shots in the NBA. They also miss the fewest shots in the NBA. They have consistently all year been among the NBA leaders in shooting percentage. That is because they take a large percentage of their shots close-in.
You are wrong that they ’don’t rebound particularly well’. They are an above-average rebounding team on the defensive side. However on the offensive side of the court they CHOOSE to not contest all that hard for offensive rebounds, instead prioritizing on getting back on defense.
how about 55% of their shots close in--
I dont’ think this team being a jumpshooting team is a good thing…..especially if you typically take less shots than your opponent.
malcontents....the lot of you
YES
because if he is scoring less its because the other players are making there shots and he isnt looking to shoot !!!!!!!!!!
Assists
I love an assists first point guard. If he is getting an assist, that means someone has scored. He finds the best option, not the most convenient one. Any point guard can hoist up shots but not all point guards have the basketball eye and IQ to see the better option.
We are playing better...
While true that the level of comp has been lacking the last two games, the fact is that we are playing much better. A few weeks ago we were losing to teams like the Nets, badly. Now we are blowing out the weak sisters, which is what good teams do. We are becoming a good team again. Not great yet. That will only happen when we do this against better teams. I look forward to the road test. This team has so much to prove, and so little time to do it. Plus 3 place is certainly worth fighting for.
leadership
Jeff, you’re right this road trip will be a test…I think we are seeing a leader emerge…glad we have a long term contract with Rondo…
whatever he does, he’s the key. i just wish he played better d. stay in front of your man. fight thru the picks. rondo is a better defensive player than nate but nate gets thru the picks better.
Nate plays against the opposing second string
While I agree Rondo still has to learn how to keep his man squared up and between his knees better, I’ll take his defense over Nate’s any day.
I'd say it differently
the key is rondo has to get other guys involved. Usually when he scores a lot it’s because the offense is stagnant and guys are standing around. when that happens we become a one and done team and with our lack of rebounding we don’t get second shots. We need to move and we need to use our defense to generate offense. We’re starting to play better in the half court but the key is still for us to generate offense through our defense. Having said that we have to be more careful with the ball. We got away with sloppy passing last night because it was the knicks but against a good team we would have paid the price for all of those turnovers. I’ll take the turnovers if it means we’re running the floor and trying to get something going but Doc needs to get them to cut down on the silly mistakes. our rebounding is improving but there were still way too many second chance possession for the knicks last night and there were at lesat rebounds where no one ( hello Sheed) on our team ever made a move for the ball. that’s infuriating to watch
the types of turnovers that have been killing us this year
have been the most aggravatingly sloppy types: traveling, moving screens, pushoffs (away from the ball!!!!).
Our ‘bad pass’ numbers aren’t really that bad – they are better than average. But in offensive foul turnovers, we have been terrible. Hopefully those mistakes will go away now that the rosters have settled down.
The bad-pass stats don't tell us
…about the most frustrating TOs of all… the brainless pass. Perk loves em… you know, where he’s throwing the ball in from out of bounds, and sends it directly into the other guy’s hands? Or Rondo lazily bouncing a slow pass with a defender just waiting to pounce. Etc. Perk had two of them just last night. Hate those… they’ve really gotta stop doing that completely. Just pay attention.
Perk fouls just about every time he sets a pick, and he sets a pick almost every time down. It’s just a matter of what the refs want to call. KG does it a lot too, but he gets away with more of them. (Actually, so does Perk get away with them… but he still gets his share of whistles.)
Speaking of Perk, it’s a rare event if Perk starts his back-to-the-basket dribbling and DOESN’T travel. Most aren’t called. But geez.
If you look at the offensive foul numbers versus minutes
Perk, BBD & Shelden stick out a lot compared to KG and especially Sheed (who for all his faults, knows how to set a pick). This should not be surprising because those guys are all younger and less experienced. You might argue that they don’t get the calls like the veterans do. But I find it hard to believe the refs give Sheed much deference …
Refs give deference to Sheed... that's hilarious
I’ve watched Sheed’s picks, actually, and you’re right… he’s good at it. Always pulls his arms in, stays pretty stationary… good stuff. Don’t understand why Perk, after 5 years in the biz, hasn’t picked up any of that. Maybe… maybe he was watching KG too much for the past couple of years… not a good role model for pick setting.
Btw… Sheed hasn’t had a tech in a long time now. Hmm. Hopefully, something’s brewing in that big fuzzy head of his… something that maybe looks like a SWITCH…!
I am sorry, but how is “Getting assists is better for me than scoring” any better than “Scoring is better than me than getting assists”?! Sounds just as selfish to me. How about what’s better for the team?
Seriously?
You’re calling Rondo selfish because he’s trying to make sure his teammates are involved in the offense? You don’t see how spreading the offense around instead of just going up and trying to score is better for the team?
I’m just saying the statement rubs me the wrong way. He might have as well meant “It’s better for the team when the other 4 guys have it going, rather than when I try to take a bunch of shots” — but that’s not what he said.
Keeping everyone going is certainly good for the team. But there is a difference between that and “getting assists is better for me”. First, better for me is not the same as better for the team. And second, there are multiple occasions when not passing the ball is better for the team — notably, when Rondo is wide open, and when he is guarded by Random Calcified 35-year old PG, to name a couple.
I think you're trying to put that statement in the worst possible light.
He’s a point guard. He’s trying to run the offense. It IS better for him to get assists than points. Whar he most likely means is it’s better for the team if I get assists than score points, not “it’s more beneficial to me personally to get assists than points”. It’s also obviously true that it isn’t more beneficial for Rondo to get assists than points. He certainly gets more exposure and recognition for 18/9 than he does for 8/12.
Its pretty simple dude
Assists means you are getting you’re teammates involved, sharing the ball, etc., which is the exact opposite of selfish. Points are a completely individual statistic.
Assists mean you’re passing the ball. Which can be just as much stat-padding as scoring the ball can be. As a matter of fact, when Rondo is passing a wide open shot, that’s not necessarily what’s best for the team.
You’re looking too much into his statement. He wants to get his teammates involved, because he knows he has some pretty talented teammates. Assists are one of the least selfish statistics, and I don’t think Rondo goes into the games looking to pad his stats. If you’re going to base what you think of him on his statements, how about looking at the numerous times he has said “its not about stats, its about getting the win.”
I hear you
There have been times when he has passed unwisely, instead of taking the wide open shot. That’s happening a lot less often lately.
I do think he meant “better for me” in the right way. (For one thing, it would be bad form to mean it the other way, and say that to the media.) But understand what you’re saying.
I think Rondo 'passing up the shot'
has more to do with his own (lack of) confidence in his shot at times and nothing at all to do with padding assist stats.
Easy being green against Knicks
Beating up on the most anemic frontline in the NBA at home is
no big deal. C’s won’t win unless they can rebound.
Rondo is a consistent player who is defending better than last year when
most guards would drive by him. But teams are starting to catch onto Rondo,
as we’ve seen more turnovers lately. Perk has been totally inconsistent if not
totally ineffective. Let’s see how Perk rebounds on this road trip.
Nope.
How about KG start rebounding while he’s scoring?
How about Pierce having a good game against a team that matters?
Rondo doesn't believe in easy buckets...
By the way, Jeff
What Doc said about changing roles isn’t the only reason they struggle(d) but it is one of the main ones. PP and/or KG go out of the lineup, Rondo goes from about 12 points a game to about 18. Even if PP and KG came back perfectly healthy they’d have to re-adjust their roles, either Rondo going back to scoring less or PP/RA/KG sharing the shooting more. But they didn’t. They come in and out of the lineup and aren’t healthy when they are playing. They still need to find their roles. Again, this isn’t their sole issue, but most of their bad spells of play have began with struggles on the offensive end. Even the Cavs game was lost with a bad offensive stretch.
By the way, Jeff
What Doc said about changing roles isn’t the only reason they struggle(d) but it is one of the main ones. PP and/or KG go out of the lineup, Rondo goes from about 12 points a game to about 18. Even if PP and KG came back perfectly healthy they’d have to re-adjust their roles, either Rondo going back to scoring less or PP/RA/KG sharing the shooting more. But they didn’t. They come in and out of the lineup and aren’t healthy when they are playing. They still need to find their roles. Again, this isn’t their sole issue, but most of their bad spells of play have began with struggles on the offensive end. Even the Cavs game was lost with a bad offensive stretch.
Energy, that’s the key to us winning. When we play with high energy we can string stops together and get easy baskets, or it can make up for numerous trips when we can’t score. We don’t play with high energy and we’ll be we’ll be making another quick exit from the playoffs
by jackscompletelackofsurprise on Mar 18, 2010 10:36 PM EDT reply actions
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