Borges: Time To "Rambis" Howard
by Jeff Clark on May 28, 2010 5:55 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics News & Links
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PrintBeat ’em to punch, Celtics - BostonHerald.com
At the time, Cedric Maxwell explained what resulted when he said, "Before Kevin McHale hit Kurt Rambis, the Lakers were just running across the street whenever they wanted. Now they stop at the corner, push the button, wait for the light and look both ways." Now it’s Howard’s turn to learn physical play is a two-way street. It’s time for him to eat some bloody chicklets. And he brought it on himself. Not by scoring and rebounding. Not by pushing and shoving. But by acting as if he has carte blanche to hurt people in the guise of "playing hard."
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7r6vXeOfyQ
How can any Celtic get away with that these days? Without a flagrant 2 or next game suspension?
Would be good if someone could, of someone was sacrificially used!
Ridiculous to suggest one of the Celtic players should take out a Magic player or Howard for retribution. The refs will be looking at that closely and we cannot afford to lose any more bodies if there is a Game 7 or a Game 1. Keep the eyes on the prize and play our game. Howard will be nervous anyway coming into our house given the last game, and the crowd needs to keep him uncomfortable the whole night. If we get him in foul trouble early, then we can take control of the game and Howard will have to hear it in his ear from the crowd while sitting on the bench. This is the most important game of the year and all of us will be riding that roller coaster tonight. I have the champagne on ice.
hard to get a man in foul trouble
who apparently only committed one PF last game… he knocked a man unconscious with an elbow but somehow committed one personal.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Absolutely. Best Borges ever.
This one quote sums up Howard’s play very nicely:
But by acting as if he has carte blanche to hurt people in the guise of “playing hard.”
Borges completely nails it in this article. The refs have been letting him get away with dirty, dangerous play. If the system (the reffing as jury nullification) isn’t working, it’s time for frontier justice. Bloody chiclets indeed… I love it.
i just read that there were boos from orlando fans when davis struggled to stand up
I cannot believe it
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 6:26 AM EDT reply actions
classy as it is. and remember ray's family were harassed in game 2
that they had to switch seats with the help from security people.
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
didn't someone throw a drink onto the court at some point?
Was that in Orlando or Cleveland?
On behalf of Orlando
I wanna say that I personally did not boo when I saw big baby. That shit was scary. Secondly, it was Classless Cleveland. Anywho, anyone who believes that Howard plays dirty probably doesn’t realize how awkward it must be to be so much taller than everyone else to where if you lift your arms, your elbow is at face level. I do think that the play where Davis got his concussion was a complete accident, especially since Robinson basically grabbed his arm and brought it down across Davis’ face.
I’ll stop trolling now. Good luck tonight. Although, not too much luck.
``There’s no need to quit. There’s no need to say that we’re going down fighting because we’re not going down. You just have to think positive and if you think negative you are going to lose. Like I told the guys in the locker room, `If anybody has any doubt, we’re not going to win. But if everybody’s on the same page and believes we’re going to win, then we’re going to win it.’’’ -Dwight Howard
by BleedingBlueSince89 on May 28, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
They might be booing Howard
Nah !! Wishful thinking
by getthat18now on May 28, 2010 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I live in Florida, and after posting on the Magic blog (respectful post last year) and after watching the Summer League last summer, I realize that the Magic organization (and a lot of the Magic fans) have the same mindset as Howard. They show no respect for anyone, and I have very little respect for them.
by thirstyboots18 on May 28, 2010 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions
big baby
is not liked in orlando, he pushed a kid to the ground last year, and he played for LSU, which is a big rival to florida in college… lots of gators in orlando.
I did not see the elbow live… saw it in the replays, but he was obviosly hurt and I hoped at the time that he was OK. They were prob booing the obvious foul and no call. You can say the elbow was intentional if you want but Howard was fouled by nate before the elbow to davis.
they never showed a replay of it
i didn’t see the play til i got home and watched my dvr of it
i don't run the jumbotron
so i have no idea
via celticshub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOAtHHv47mk&feature=player_embedded#!
watch from 0:38 to 0:50
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I listened 4 times
I can’t make any sound out in the background, dude.
by alwaysforgiven821 on May 28, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
or it could just be random crowd noises
which it was
Nate and DH are friends
remember the last year’s Dunk Contest?
by getthat18now on May 28, 2010 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Game thread, game 4 -
I called BBD being slapped to the head twice in the same play by Super-one and the foul then on that play was called on BBD for a shooting body foul on Howard !
I think I know why BBD wants to play some minutes in game six here and it won’t be a body foul that has him then sitting out nor his concussion ;)
Elbows are bad enough, but Howard is allowed to flail his arms and slap to the head and face consistantly ; Howards pull down of Paulie bending his arm awarkly backwards and down was yet another foul example that the refs directed by the NBA allow Howard to get away with as in the Star is to big to fail B.S. NBA version .
Indefatigable on Defence defines these Celtics~
I'm with you. Remember Davis wants to play in the NFL.
I think he has something special in mind for DUH wight.
by eastie Rich on May 28, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
This hit from Howard had deserved a flagrant at least!
Did anybody see Howard down for more than 2 seconds`?? Never happened – he should be a Boxer or even better a wrestler. He was blocked from Nate and overreacts! What a nightmare Game 5 was – I hope they respond to this with a huge blowout. The magic and esp. Howard deserves it!!!
I’d really like to see a bleeding Howard or humbling down the court or something else – It can’t be true what happens –
@Papatrichs: I guess Nate doesn’t have enough weight to hack him good enough^^ I would choose the Landlord!!! No matter who will do the job – Tommy points waiting!!!
Can't agree
The play happened very fast, and Nate hit Dwight in the air. Wrong place and time for Davis.
Can’t call flagrants for incidental contact at the rim.
by nba is the worst on May 28, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Why would he get a T for incidental contact?
by nba is the worst on May 28, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
any elbow to the head
is supposed to result in a tech/flagrant
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
by WillyBeamin on May 28, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I was wrong - my apologies!
While I disagree that an inadvertent elbow would be an automatic tech/flagrant, I hadn’t seen that link with the MUCH better camera angles in that French youtube below.
It CLEARLY shows intent.
Why weren’t those camera angles shown on ESPN and NBA TV?
Outrageous IMO.
by nba is the worst on May 28, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Where the link you watched?
Because every reply I’ve seen has shown the the contact was a by-product of his arm being knocked inside right before he started to bring it down.
by alwaysforgiven821 on May 28, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
BS - even the ESPN vid shows he reaches up for the shot and then 'swims down' with his left arm hard..
He does that on practically every post play whether blocking or laying up. His arms go up and then, instead of retracting straight back to his body like everybody else, he uses a swimming motion to swing the arm down, hard.
Nate’s hand barely touches Howard’s hand and you can see Howard’s arm initially start inward, away from the direction that Nate’s hand would have pulled it and then it switches and goes on its full arc forward and down. There is no basis for saying Nate’s contact ‘knocked’ Howard’s arm into BBD.
That’s the same move he caught Pierce with, except with his other arm.
That is not a natural move. That is almost certainly a practiced move.
Maybe, just maybe...Celtic fans should stop wasting their hatred on LeBron!
Howard is so much more “deserving” of the hate…as opposed to LeBron, whose only anti-Celtic “crime” finds him guilty of being awesomely talented.
by Title 18 on May 28, 2010 7:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Why did even the C's stopped getting physical with him?
The game 1 aggressiveness of our bigs on the defensive end suddenly faded going through the last game (Game 5). I definitely agree with this article..
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
Yes, intimidation is the key to domination.
because david stern wanted us to lose the last couple games
and the refs were all out for our bigs at every single move
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Because they couldn't afford to be physical....
we were down Perk who is our most aggressive big and everyone else was in foul trouble. Perfect example of how the refs can totally change a game hands down
I think the reason we got away from playing Howard physical in games 4 & 5 ...
was because Doc was using Baby alot more on Howard in games 4 & 5 then playing Perk and Rasheed on him.
Doc had Baby on Howard for very long stretches, he did so out of pure choice at times, due to foul and injury reasons also at other times.
Though Baby does play Howard physical , I think Perk and Rasheed play him alot more tougher especially due to their added length.
We saw Howard get going on offense when Baby was guarding him and saw alot of loop slam dunks also since Baby does not have the length to defend Howard that well.
Doc must get back like in games 1-3 of having Perk and Rasheed on Howard more often (and using Baby for spot duty only) since they are better built to muscle Howard the best.
If he does that and Perk and Rasheed play very aggressive and physical defense I think Howard will be neutralized in game 6.
And the winner is...!
Hah. When you come to think of it, you’re correct. Howard scores more when BBD defends him.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
Yes, intimidation is the key to domination.
by Marjun Raposon on May 28, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
In Games 4 & 5 another difference was the high-pick & roll that Orlando used.
They brought Howard out on high screens to pound Rondo into so Nelson could get into the paint. This also meant that when Howard went to the basket he was facing it, which is where he is better at finishing. Its also the position he uses his big ‘swimming’ stroke from when he comes down. You know, the one where he clocks anybody next to him with his massive arms.
I know some think that this ‘woke up’ Orlando’s offense, but in reality they didn’t really score at higher efficiencies than when they were trying to feed it into Howard in the post per games 1-3. Only 86 pts in regulation in Game 4. And in Game 5 for the ‘normal’ stretches they also did about the same.
The key point differentials in Game 5 came from the 7 minute span from the end of the 1st to the middle of the 2nd when the Magic did not get any fouls called on them. They were +10 during that span to go from a 2 pt game to a 12 pt game. The lead stayed around 10 for most of the game (and shrunk to 6 a couple of times) until late when we simply didn’t have enough bigs on the floor anymore and gave up with about 8 minutes to go.
Because within just a few minutes of the game start
The Celtics got called for 5 non-shooting fouls.
2 on KG. 2 on Rondo. 1 on Perk.
That set the tone of the whole game. Out of the 30 fouls we got called for, only eight were shooting fouls. The Magic only got called for 14, and many ticky-tack at the end of the game to make it look balanced.
Here is a breakdown you should read:
so the refs should stop calling fouls now
simply because the celtics commit more non-shooting fouls?
C'mon, the past two games haven't been
even close to being evenly called. Why would you even dispute it when you know in your heart Howard should have been tossed?
Wait, it may backfire
I hope all these talks/thoughts of getting even with Dirty Howard will not lead the refs to call the game tight and protect Dirty Howard even more. I believe if both teams play basketball, we will win. But if the Magic (I mean Dirty Howard) turns it into a WWF, then we will have a tougher time.
No matter what, we absolutely must end either the series or Dirty Howard’s season tonight.
The magic won because
of shooting a high percentage…get over it…actually I hope the celtic players keep bitching cause then they will lose their focus.
The magic won because
.. they were a better team in Game 5… They had Eddie Rush and Joey Coward as teammates.
by getthat18now on May 28, 2010 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions
you know
if you take away the intentional fouls against howard, which gave him 8 freethrows, that boston actually was called for less fouls and shot more freethrows than orlando. but yeah the nba is out to get you guys who play in a larger television market, and would draw better ratings from casual fans than orlando would.
The huge majority of the fouls on the Celtics were non-shooting fouls. I am not a fellow conspiracy theorist and agree that the Magic win was more due to their shooting, but the refs did call a lot of ticky tack fouls that make you wonder…….no matter though, I like our chances, going home with a win to send us to the finals. Better position than the Magic right now. They will be playing against about 20,000 loud, rabid, out for revenge fans tomorrow night.
you dont know
Boston was called for 8 non shooting fouls in the first quarter, 2 for rondo and garnett within the first 6 min, effectively changing the way they played for the entire first half. Now if those were shooting fouls you could argue Orlando was being more aggressive, but they weren’t. The refs set the tone for the game in first 6 min, took the Celtics aggressiveness on defense away from them, and robbed them of there best weapon to defend Howard.
well i cant get over how the refs could let howard get away with so many
flagrant-worth elbowing
also i suppose anyone who watched the tv would agree these two T’s on perk were ridiculous
the refs didnt have to give one team more free throws to influence/manipulate a game. at certain turning points, making key players into foul trouble, double standards, these things could hurt more.
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
The "larger television market" excuse holds no water at all....
The NBA is going to profit MUCH more from EXTRA games than they are from a certain team going to the Finals…the revenue of a couple extra games totally outweighs any revenue of, say, 6 Finals games regardless of the team.
Here to spam again.
You’ve already proven you don’t know ANYTHING about basketball. Please someone tell the Magic site they missing a member and someone needs to come get him.
by eastie Rich on May 28, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Howard is too strong
There is no way to hurt him. He’s invincible. If any Celtic tried to hurt him they would get the worst of it. Make him pay but it’s like a flea attacking a bull mastiff.
by Celtico on May 28, 2010 7:49 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Not necessarily
When you are up in the air, you are vulnerable no matter how strong you are.
by getthat18now on May 28, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Hitting Kurt Rambis and hitting Dwight Howard are two very different things..
That being said, Interesting to see who steps up and enforces tonight for the Celtics…
I am Black.
so many players to 'hate'
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1085/1239924483_5b8298f5e4.jpg
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
I don't have time to read the article...
but I agree that the Cs need to take it to Howard…hard.
Dwight is getting away with murder…without even a foul call. I don’t believe those elbows are ‘inadvertent’.
The refs let the Cs manhandle Howard early but fouls were called, too. Then the other shoe dropped and the Cs are getting the abuse…without the calls.
And yes, the Cs defense on Howard and the Magic in general could be much better. Sometimes one feeds the other.
I’m hoping this Green Team is put together enough to finish them off tonight.
Need big games out of the Big Three and Sheed.
I certainly hope some offline discussions have gone on with the League. The refs will be looking for the C’s to retaliate. If they allow Howard to continue his dangerous play, more C’s will get hurt and the game will go like the last game. Howard and the Magic have confused dangerous play with tough basketball and the officials have condoned this. And that stinks.
I would much rather we just get to watch basketball.
by Thruthelookingglass on May 28, 2010 8:43 AM EDT reply actions
i’m not saying the games are fixed but the refs are told what to call and not call and who to protect. you protect the money players, i.e. the guys who bring in the fans. we the fans if we expect a fair game should know it’s not a fair world. trust me, if perk did anything resembling what howard has already done, he would be long gone. howard’s picks are way more flagrant than anything perk does. this is what sets off perk. his mom taught him about truth and justice and fairness, but not about david stern’s moneybags nba. you don’t think that bp, the oil company, and the nba have different motives?
the NBA is a 3 billion dollar
enterprise. and tonight’s referees are
Ken Mauer – convicted of tax evasion
Mike Callahan – who is T happy
and
Monty Mclutchen – 9 times out of 10 games officiated in this year’s playoffs, the home team has won
also a short fuse
the worse the refs
the better for the C’s… assuming home crowd gets going.
Let's all remember
The series might be over if the flagrant 1 on Dwight was called during game 4, not after. As far as tonight, play the game and don’t do anything stupid that will give Orlando momentum.
Where were the Orlando Magic fans on this blog
when the Celtics were up 3-0? I find their appearnace now typical of the frontrunners that most Magic fans are.
There wasn't a freaking article before suggesting to intentionally hurt one of our players.
How about you go back to an article a month or so ago after KG told you all to stay the f—- home? Yeah, let’s talk about how the Celtics fans were on this very blog then.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
well these are all fans/writers talking about sth they have NOT done
but your franchise player actually did pretty much of it on court
isnt it ironic that magic fans are here complaining about it?
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
No, it's not ironic.
There’s no irony to be had here. There’s one team calling for premeditated thuggery against the star player of the other team. I understand that Boston fans in general are incapable of being rational about anything to do with their fans, so this is a losing battle. But the only “elbow” that was received was to KG’s melon, and as I noted below, “big men are taught when they get a rebound to put their elbows out, clear space, and look up the court for an outlet pass. I believe Bill Russell used to do the same damn thing almost every time he got a board. Wes Unseld was legendary for it.” KG knows this, yet he crowded another big man after a rebound. Is Dwight supposed to have eyes in the back of his head to know that KG was at his 6 o’clock? I guess so.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I didn't see anyone on the team calling for anyone to be injured
However, I saw an article written by a columnist. How many Celtics will be the recipients of Howard’s “inadvertant” elbows to the head tonight? He is the modern day Dikembo Mutumbe.
but they didnt use their elbow to intentionally hurt other players
they give hard foul to stop the other team from scoring, not to hurt other players and stop them from playing.
if you haven’t, you might want to watch the couple fouls on pierce earlier in this series.. howard landed with his elbow on pierce’s shoulder/neck, and then pulled it down further. that was an atrocity, not a hard foul.
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Have you ever tried to stop yourself from further hurting someone when your elbow fell on them?
You have to give a guy the time to back off of the hit. Flagrant is judged by intent.
by alwaysforgiven821 on May 28, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
no it is not.
The rules don’t require intent at all.
Why is it all or most of the other bigs who
go up leave there arms up and Howard likes to throw them down and catch whoever just happens to be there? I wonder how many elbows Gasols thrown this year? Probably less than Howard threw in game 5.
they celebrate Howards Elbow!
just took a look at a magic blog and they seems to be fine with all what happens:
http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/5/27/1490845/is-dwight-howards-elbow-tougher
That's an article criticizing Vince.
With a few off-color jokes about Dwight’s elbow. As you see in the comments, that backs that up. No one wants to see any player get concussed like what happened to Davis.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
What do you expect from a bunch of lowlifes?
Besides Howards already tried to knock Pierce out of the games a few times. He just hasn’t fully connected yet – but he is trying.
I posted here when the celtics were playing the cavs
I had nothing to say when we were down 0-3, call me what you want but I did wear my magic cap around town when we were down 0-3
LOL!
Exactly what I was thinking….amazing how they come out of the woodwork when they finally win a game
I remember. You’ve made solid contributions here Dzogi.
by Thruthelookingglass on May 28, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
are you going to post here when the magic
make history and become the first to close out the old tired beatup celtics
and thats why he had to wear the pad
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously his elbow is as hard as his head.
by eastie Rich on May 28, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You comments and how they drip of NBA knowledge
are astounding.
Solid contribution to this blog.
I am Black.
Thank you. I do my best.
I bow to your far, far superior knowledge.
hop off......
Time for everyone to hop off the green bandwagon…..which leaves more room for guys like me, who have been ridin dirty since 1982…..yep…..time to give the Magic a history lesson about dirty…uh, I mean, hard play……
I'm with you!
Been a fan since ‘82 as well. Growing up in the 80’s in LA a Celtic fan can be a rough thing. I’m so disappointed to what this league has become. I long for the days when the players, not the refs, determine the outcome of the game. So very, very sad. I totally agree that we need to fight back tonight with force. Someone, and I’m not saying any names (Sheldon), needs to give one for the team.
My first game at the Garden I watched Hondo and
Cowens. F*** the refs. If they let this get out of hand again Howard needs to be taken out.
by eastie Rich on May 28, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
inflict pain
we are capable of playing his way.
We gotta if we are to win.
beat him up.
go Celtics.
end this tonight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv8qTk1-Y2c
Watch that. Watch it again. Watch it 18 more freaking times. Then tell me the difference between that play and the elbow Davis caught from Howard. Waiting… waiting…. Oh right, the only difference is that on the elbow Davis caught, it was after Nate Robinson slapped the $&*@$ out of Dwight’s arm. Seriously, get over yourselves, understand physics and how the human body works when it’s up in the air and you’re coming down with someone crowding you.
You’re all being ridiculously stupid, and this is just wrong to suggest someone clotheslining someone while they’re in mid-air. Hell, opposing players almost do that already every time they try to send Dwight to the FT line (grabbing him by his neck, hooking his arms while he’s jumping, pulling down his arms while he’s in mid-air). A lot of those fouls he takes would be called flagrants if he wasn’t as big and strong as he is.
Bottom line: Play freaking basketball and shut up. It’s a contact sport, and if the bullies of the NBA can’t handle some physicality back, then you don’t deserve to win a series that you should’ve won on Monday.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
you, like most magic fans...
fail to recognize that its not this singular knockout of davis that makes us want to see howard getting taken down hard. It’s the consistent abuse of our players after the whistler with blows to the head, primarily with his elbow.
Game 1 on pierce,
game 4 on garnett and perkins
game 5 on rondo twice
throw in the fact that he “accidentally” landed an elbow hard enough to knock our two teeth and knock a former football player unconscious and their is blood in the water.
you have also probably only been a basketball fan for a few years, you forget that this is the way the game was played in it’s hey-day, eye for an eye.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
elbows to the head
are not “physical” basketball, it’s dirty and deserves to be paid back in full
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
hey
your beloved kevin mchale was interviewed and said that dwight howard’s play was “excellent” and “clean”
he rebounds exactly how it is taught. it is not his fault that BBD is shorter and has the vertical leap of grandmother.
by lakersbluedevil on May 28, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
you really don't get it do you
i’m not even talking about that play, howard has intentionally knocked down players with his arms and in particular his elbows on several occasions this series.
watch the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Nk94-3y_4
the “knockout” punch you’re referring to is just the icing on the cake.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Don't condescend to me.
I know exactly how basketball was played “in its hey-day”. That’s how we got things like the punch landed on Kermit Washington, or Rudy Tomjanovich. It’s dangerous, is what it is, and with stronger players who can jump higher, the chance for serious injury is even worse just from plays that aren’t sucker punches (like the glorified McHale clothesline).
Rondo wasn’t hit with any damn elbows. Neither was Pierce, although that was a hard foul. Garnett caught an “intentional” elbow with Dwight supposedly having eyes in the back of his head to see him. No, if you knew anything about anything, you’d know that big men are taught when they get a rebound to put their elbows out, clear space, and look up the court for an outlet pass. I believe Bill Russell used to do the same damn thing almost every time he got a board. Wes Unseld was legendary for it. Go study the freaking game and get back to me.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
everyone is taught
to put their elbows out on rebound…to CLEAR SPACE!!!
If glen “big baby” davis actually jumped with howard…you know defense… his head would be nowhere near howard’s elbows… he cannot guard howard, he can only take up space.
I read on this board before the series, that you guys where talking about bringing the pain to vince if he drives in the lane…hypocrites!!
It wasn't even a rebound.
It was after a shot attempt in which his arm was slapped by Nate. He’s in the air, his arm gets slapped, and he comes down off balance. Sounds intentional to me…
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
again
davis getting hit is not really the discussion, not at least what I’m concerned with, it’s all the other extra stuff. that’s just the icing on the cake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Nk94-3y_4
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
there is a fine line
between playing physical, which the celtics try to do, and playing dirty which is what dwight horward is doing.
that line is blurred by homerism of course, but I’ve seen enough from Howard over his career to convince myself that it’s not just my bias, he has in fact tried to hurt a few players in his day.
remember, he has a history of this as well.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
classy
rondo is def making a play in the ball, oh wait, no thats a fish hook, classic basketball
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/46627/bullsnofoul.gif
He plays with reckless abandon
Whether its "intentional" or not is beside the point….kind of like reckless driving or driving under the influence…you think the drunk behind the wheel is intentionally trying to kill someone on the road? No. Do they still get punished? Yes.
exactly
no one else in the western world sees this except on this site. insane. talk to mchale.
by lakersbluedevil on May 28, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed.
I understand it, though. One of the best players on the team got hurt and hurt bad. The fans are understandably angry, afraid and want to make something out of it. I might be upset if it was on a player from my team.
However, there is no way someone could call this a flagrant foul, or even a foul in the first place. Dwight’s eyes were always on the ball. We see that the arm, and thus the elbow, are knocked from their original path of decent and the contact is made. Dwight then is seen moving his arm away, going for a rebound.Nothing intention or flagrant in his body motions or the way he handled himself. If the elbow had landed on Davis’ shoulder or chest, or if Davis had been an inch further back, this wouldn’t be a discussion right now.
by alwaysforgiven821 on May 28, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
yah except for that whole thing...
that it’s explicitly written in the NBA rule book that any elbow above the neck results in an automatic tech/flagrant.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
and do you realize
just how hard you’d have to swing an elbow to knock someone unconscious? it is not a normal motion
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
its called gravity
he was on his way down after jumping to shoot the ball
Actually it isn't that hard at all.
An impact of an elbow,as hard as it is,on the front of someone’s head would be enough to disorient with minimal force. Considering Dwight’s weight and height, it is easy to assume that the slightest impact could have caused what happened.
by alwaysforgiven821 on May 28, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Go back to your own site. Haven't you noticed how generally
decent we are to the Laker fans who show up here? What’s your problem?
well then sir
you are just soft, if you’ve watched as much basketball as you claim you should know that howard deserves retribution, and that’s exactly how this sort of thing would have been handled for 90% of the existence of this league.
I’m not calling for anyone to go at his knees and end his career, I want someone to foul him hard (pretty sure kurt rambis was just fine). How else will he learn that you cant elbow people with no regard because the league certainly isn’t telling him that.
go ahead and watch this and tell me that horward isn’t trying to injure players
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Nk94-3y_4
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Only hard fouls without a play on the ball are...
The first one against Pierce and KG. Of course the one against KG is again, what big men are taught to do, clear space after a rebound. If you’re so knowledgeable about basketball, I’d think you’d know that. The other ones are normal, hard fouls that Boston players do to Dwight… wait for it… every game. Not Dwight’s fault he’s bigger than the guys running directly into him or that every time Pierce gets touched by anyone, he acts worse than Vince Carter.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Are you really saying
that, say, the first play in that video isn’t unnecessary and excessive contact, a dirty play? Are you honestly saying that’s just a hard play?
I understand being emotionally invested, but that’s taking it way too far. Your passions are clouding your judgement.
If the Celtics do something similar to Howard or other of the Magic players, and if the refs don’t take control of Howard’s tendency to foul with excessive contract and throw his elbows around (Garnett was crowding Howard, really? He was already running back, Howard hit him in the back of his head) it will happen, what are you going to say?
He plays with reckless abandon
Whether its “intentional” or not is beside the point….kind of like reckless driving or driving under the influence…you think the drunk behind the wheel is intentionally trying to kill someone on the road? No. Do they still get punished? Yes.
I said the first one wasn't a play on the ball.
The other one against Perkins and the 2nd one against Pierce were.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
So, what's exactly your problem?
All the author is saying is that the Celtics player should respond in the same way.
it's not like howard has a history of this or anything...
Oh wait a minute… this happened just last year!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcLhQyzZnmM
the guy has a track record of doing this.
please send me the youtube highlight reel of the celtics elbowing dwight howard in the head. or dragging him to the ground by his face with an open palm or forearm. or the time a celtics went for a shot fake and to help themselves land more gracefully they grabbed howards jersey on teh way down, awkardly bending his knee and bringing him to the ground.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
by WillyBeamin on May 28, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
That Dalembert elbow was intentional.
It was obvious. And he got suspended for that. Point blank, the NBA will suspend a player if they do something like that.
Oh wait, unless it’s Rondo doing it to Brad Miller.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
Ha, I don't recall rondo elbowing anyone in the face
I also recall rondo doing that while the ball was in play, as opposed to howard who causes most of his devastation after the whistle, aka cheap shots.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
by WillyBeamin on May 28, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
on several of the plays in that vid, he clearly knows what he's about to do
He hesitates right before the first one on Pierce. Then deliberately wails on him.
On the first swipe against KG, he reaches out toward KG to whack him in the head.
On the later one against KG he also CLEARLY knows KG is there behind him because he sees him and he also feels that they are back-to-back. The swinging of the elbows is deliberate and unnecessary. A man with his back to you cannot reach in and take the ball. He clocked KG in the head because he wanted to.
Against Davis, there is no way you can claim that Robinson ‘knocked’ Howard’s arm into Davis because Howard’s hand is barely brushed by Robinson’s and initially starts inward after the contact, then changes direction into his classic swimming motion that he uses to clock people with.
These are all very clear in the vids.
Wow -- that is a great series of clips
It is truly amazing how the Celtics keep putting their heads and bodies in the way of Howard’s elbows and arms. Who do the Celtics players think they are?
I used to think Howard needed to be suspended for one
game, but after watching that video I think it should be more like six months.
Try some decaf. It’s only a basketball game. Bottom line is that we will find out tonight what both teams are made of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVHIatUdkUU
goto 1:30 you will see garnett elbow howard once then twice …this is not this series it is the xmas game
ha yes..
the first elbow is clearly him going back fro the ball.
the 2nd is clearly intentional.
notice it doesn’t hit howard in the head, and this resulted in a technical! just as howards elbows should.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
by WillyBeamin on May 28, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish folks would not put the links in the header
put them in the post so that they are clickable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVHIatUdkUU
And WillyBeamin is spot on.
Yes, the 2nd looks very intentional. Yes KG deserved the T.
Basically.
I want a basketball game, not an MMA fight.
I love LeBron. No really, I love Jameer.
I condescend to you
because you defend the indefensable.
by eastie Rich on May 28, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
@ slickw143 Funny how us Celtic fans can take crap talk from opposing team fans...
But if we went on your site we would be labled trolls and warned…sometimes automatically banned…just like Orlando players excuse vince and jemeer you guys are rediculous…win a championship-just one..and than talk smack JACK.
by Ol' Green Boyz on May 28, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe because you are one. It's apparent you don't know how
to play basketball or to correctly interput what’s right in front of your eyes. Hey, maybe the league should hire you to ref.
you get labeled a troll over there
because when you had a 3-0 lead and orlando won a game your argument was that orlando had no chance to win because they don’t have any championship rings.
Of course it's the same. Its the same damn *practiced* move by Howard.
He does this everytime he goes up with his arms. Regardless of whether he even makes a play on the ball, he brings them down hard in a swim motion, instead of retracting them like a normal human would.
I don’t think Howard is singling out Celtics. He does this all the time. But that doesn’t make it right. Its still dangerous and your video is just additional confirmation of it. You can find even more vids of it if you google for them.
Tons of players – GREAT players – have played successfully at the post for decades now without having to constantly jeopardize the well being of their teammates and opponents with this sort of move. There is no excuse for Howard doing what he is doing. Howard is a menace.
Here's the officials that will work the game
Tonight’s refs:
Monty McCutchen (known as one of the fairest refs, 4-0 Orl, 5-2 Bos this season)
Mike Callahan (Magic 5-1, Bos 6-2 this season)
Ken “Weasel” Mauer (known as pro-Celtics, but this season 1-2 Bos, 4-1 Orl)
by nba is the worst on May 28, 2010 9:41 AM EDT reply actions
Agree - pretty much best case. Additional data:
Mauer is the guy with the Pat Riley greaseback hair, who was one of the refs in game 2 ‘08 finals with the 38-10 ft margin in the C’s favor.
This season he ref’d Cle game 3 and Heat game 4 Bos playoff losses, and the game 1 Bos win @ the Magic. He hasn’t ref’d another playoff game for Orl.
Calahan ref’d Cle game 4 and Orl gm 2 vs Hawks, both playoff wins.
McCutchen ref’d Cle gm 6 and Orl Orl gm 2 vs Hawks, both playoff wins.
by nba is the worst on May 28, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Nk94-3y_4
ECF DH highlights
wow… thank you. this is appalling to watch and know that exactly 2 of those were called flagrants
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
hahaha this argument again, where drawing fouls is a bad thing
you just hate winning basketball apparently
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
I guess I see where you're coming from
Paul is maybe the best in the league at drawing contact on a shot fake, I’d hate a player on the opposing team who is the best in the league at something too.
Just like how I hate Howard for being the best in the league at landing “unintentional” elbows to opposing players heads.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
by WillyBeamin on May 28, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
correction:
paul is the best at drawing fake-contact, whipping his head back, falling to the ground, and contorting his body around as if he was shot. Drawing fouls is one thing, winning an academy award is quite another.
Don't be callin' me dog cause I want ya to say it backwards - Tech N9ne
by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on May 28, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
bring out the finals MVP
how many of those do you have on your magic roster?
vince carter? hahaha, not quite.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
wow...
I’d rather Paul master the art of taking lucky 3 pointers to keep his team in the series…a la Jameer Nelson……
Even you need to admit
The lucky, way off, bank shot three in OT was NOT skill…..It was total luck
I have been urging the C's to be very physical with Orlando and especially Howard this whole series....
They did a great job playing physical and keeping the defensive pressure on Orlando in games 1-3 and not so good job in games 3-5.
I hope the C’s get back to that game plan in game 6.
The C’s are at thier best when they play a tough, physical defensive game and not so great when they do not .
If the C’s unleash Perk – Rasheed – Baby (if he plays) and Shelden on Howard and the rest of the team steps it up and plays tough, physical, aggressive defense also, the C’s will end this series.
Hey, I'm a Celts fan but......
I really don’t think Howard’s fouls were intentional. First of all, I don’t think he’s the brightest guy in the world and he’s only 24. He’s been reading about how he and the Magic have been playing like wimps and how all the “experts” say they have to toughen up and play like real men. So if he ’toughens up" by being ferocious and swinging his arms and elbows ???
Look at that youtube link before you say that - it changed my mind!
Intent is clear. No question
by nba is the worst on May 28, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Vinnie, all, had you seen the camera angles in that French youtube previously?
I’m pissed that there wasn’t wider distribution – unless I just missed it
by nba is the worst on May 28, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Let’s not get caught up in this. The best way to get retribution? Return to the way they played earlier in the series and win the game with class and style.
agree with ya
lets just finish them tonight with our ball game and be done with it
cannot waste any more time or potential risk of injury on the magic. we have got lakers or suns to beat and either is actually a pretty good team to worry about.
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed, BUT
let’s hope the refs let that happen. all we need is for them to call things more or less even between our bigs and theirs. i have no problem with their physical play (minus dwight’s 2 or 3 extra cheap shots, which need to be called), but i do have a problem with our bigs not being allowed to play as physical, particularly in the 2 losses.
by guy incognito on May 28, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Bent
I am not a Celtics fan, farm from it, but that is a voice of reason. Everyone, quit blaming the refs, the league, howard’s elbows, and man the f—- up and do it. You say you are the superior team, then prove it and win.
And please, please, please, stop acting like the celts are angels, it’s just sickening.
Don't be callin' me dog cause I want ya to say it backwards - Tech N9ne
by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on May 28, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Shocking
Nice to see a person with common sense. Trying to win the series by actually PLAYING BASKETBALL.
we wish
that the refs let perkins do just that last game, play basketball, but instead they robbed of of our best defensive big man for the entire second half of a 8 pt game.
so instead we have 2 days of discussion about how awful the refs are.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
refs make mistakes
its too bad perkins has a reputation for complaining, which is probably why the refs give him a short leash. someone on espn mentioned that the benches had just been warned about complaining about foul calls. he should not have been thrown out, but it happens.
refs make mistakes and as long as they're
always in our favore I"m o.k. Even if we knock players teeth out, then it’s even better.
Is that what you meant?
Scal's job
Put in Scal. let him get a good hit in (even if he’s ejected who cares?)…He’d do it cause 1) He’s getting paid to do what’s asked of him by the team and 2) it would add to the love most Boston people have for him.
We have to send a message back to Orlando…not cheap, just old school hard contact to let him know its no free walk through the lane anymore. Let’s hope he retaliates :)
What the hell is Scal going to do?
He’s a soft 6-9 player. If somebody is sent out to obviously hurt somebody in this neutered NBA, It’ll probably be addressed in a way that makes us unable to compete in the finals anyway.
The sad part about this is the league has so pussified itself that the players are not allowed to police themselves.
by Finkelskyhook on May 28, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Hit him hard
That’s what scal will do…..Regardless of the way he plays, which is a soft out-of-the-key style of play, he is still a big strong guy who can hammer someone if needed.
Don’t think because his game is soft he cant go out there and hit someone hard.
I agree the league has become far to protectant of its stars, but the good news is the end of the rotation player can still do that, but he will have to sit a couple games as a consequence, but with Scal I’m ok with that.
I also think we need to go out howards body on drives and in the post early to see if we can pick up some fouls. If perk just upfaked and then went into his body he could draw a couple for sure. Cheers to that happening
you know even a generic guy could easily hurt a big man like dirty howard when hes in the air
if you have played competitive basketball you know what im saying
getting him a lit bit off balance could cause big damage to his lower body when hes in the air. it doesnt even have to be a clothesline kind of hard foul
you could make a player land on your feet when he jumps in the air and his ankle will be injured easily. and it is very hard for the refs to notice. thats what bruce bowen was infamous for.
just saying. not that im approving the idea. I still hope for a pure pwnage on basketball game and throw the orlando elbow team out of town
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
the bigger (real) point is not to take howard out
it is to play him as physical as he plays us. the last two games (and especially game 5) have been terrible as far as the difference between a foul from our bigs and a foul from their bigs. we won games 1-3 largely because the refs called it relatively fair (in favor of howard, since he’s another league golden boy, but not egregiously so). we need to play very physical with him in game 6 and force the refs to become an issue if they choose to call this thing unfairly. best-case scenario, they don’t, and it’s called evenly. now, if the game is called like game 5, and howard does get in a few cheap shots, then we should make sure to foul him extra hard. not dirty, just very very hard. i don’t like dwight, but i don’t want to see him, lebron, or any other nba player get seriously injured.
Psychological Dismantling
Howard definitely needs to learn a lesson. Big time. Personally I wouldn’t mind if he “inadvertently” gets a few teeth knocked out and loses some of his stupid “happy go lucky guy” endorsements. That would be nice.
But professionally I want them to lose by such a large margin that it “Sasha Vujacic-es” them. (Meaning after the 08 drubbing by the C’s he wouldn’t even wear the color green.) Physically a couple of after the whistle shots would be nice, even a take down or two. But I want this to be such a complete blowout by the C’s that it leaves an even more lasting psychological impression. Although I doubt Howard even has enough self awareness to allow himself to be embarrassed. (See game 2 when he was chuckling with the fans with a tie game with a 2 min to play.)
Let’s put it this way, lets give Howard a real reason to use his elbows…so he can practice his golf swing and go fishing for the next 4 months. LET’S BEAT THESE SCRUBS!!!
Although I disliked what happened last game, I think that there is no need to flagrant foul Howard, or any Magic player
especially if those fouls could jeopardize an athlete’s future (injure him). The only thing we should ask for is for them to play more physical, not violent. I believe the elbow on BBD is unintentional, as well as the elbows (some of it) throughout the series. But to be fair, the refs should call personal fouls on those.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
Yes, intimidation is the key to domination.
by Marjun Raposon on May 28, 2010 10:59 AM EDT reply actions
or call them flagrants if the elbows go too far.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
Yes, intimidation is the key to domination.
by Marjun Raposon on May 28, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
just let us be as physical as them
that’s all we need to be allowed to do. we basically were in games 1-3. oh, and you have to call howard for a foul if he takes a shot/shove at one of our guys after the play. he’s done that at least 3 times. just call him on it. end of story.
by guy incognito on May 28, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Amen
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
Yes, intimidation is the key to domination.
by Marjun Raposon on May 28, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
orl adjusted
they are not throwing it in to howard very much any more. cause can’t make his free throws
I agree with this.
In fact, I don’t really think we need to play ‘more’ physical. We just need it to be called fair. The game will take care of itself.
Wallace and baby are game time, but probably going to play. Daniels is out. Scal will most likely be activated in marquis’ place
curious
do you guys think davis should play
I am a gator fan, and a lot of ppl where questioning why tebow was playing 2 weeks after a concussion. Granted it is a much more physical sport but 2 days is not a long time for davis.
The whole starting lineup of the celtics should come out with facemasks…that would be funny
Funny, celtics fans complaining about "dirty" play.
My how times have changed.
Usually respectful of people's opinions
But advocating dirty play is asinine. What injury was Dwight’s fault exactly? Davis? The guy who got hit with an elbow after Dwight came down awkwardly after a hard foul by Nate? Or Rasheed that twinged his back fouling Redick? Or maybe it was the MArquis guy who injures himself making a quick jump into Gortat’s chest. Grow up.
Funny I don’t see Nash or the Sun’s fans pushing for dirty play, even though Nash’s nose was broken by a rogue elbow. Nope, Nash tried to fix his nose himself and went back to work. Cause it is basketball. The Celtics have bigger advantages than the Magic on both ends of the court. The Magic’s only real advantage is Howard. Does that mean the Magic should look to kick Garnett “accidentally” in his knee?
And please don’t respond with well there is nothing wrong with a hard foul, as Boston has been doing that already, this post is blatantly advocating for someone to attempt to hurt Howard because the writer is too much of a pussy to want a game where the players win or lose.
Why not write a post about how the players on both sides should “Rambis” the inconsistent and biased refs, at least that would be fair, for both teams.
by Eric9321 on May 28, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
to you sir. Celts fans, man the f—- up, your hard-nosed, gritty defensive powerhouse of a team, is getting some serious competition from another team, one of the best in the league. I expect the Celts to take this series, but the tough play from BOTH sides is what we as fans should expect. Does it anger you that Howard is playing extremely physical? Should he not? Every team in the NBA hammers him every time he touches the ball, in attempts to slow him down and make him shoot free throws. He is responding equally. Man up and win the series.
Don't be callin' me dog cause I want ya to say it backwards - Tech N9ne
by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on May 28, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i agree that the last game was oddly reffed
But this who “howard is dirty, someone seriously injure him” stuff has to stop. That is disgusting, and shame on those advocating that.
Don't be callin' me dog cause I want ya to say it backwards - Tech N9ne
by MaxiellEatsLittleOnes on May 28, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry man
hopefully the Celtic’s don’t feel the same, and this won’t matter as I have a bad feeling it will all be over tonight.
are you saying
that game 5 was down the line evenly called? and dont worry. your team will lose by 30 tonight
Absolutely not
The ticky tack fouls on the Magic kept the Celtics in the game. There were terrible calls both ways, Nate’s “block”, Gortat and Lewis fouling Wallace in the fourth were no calls. I felt that minus the Perkins ejection which was just a horrible gaffe by the ref, that the bad calls were even yes. I can not even out that ejection as it should never have happened. That kind of call is not measurable because you can’t tell what if’s when a player is removed from a game. The difference is, even though I favor one team, I don’t advocate violence or non basketball remedies. The refs have hurt both teams and I wish there was more accountability to limit the damage they cause. But I don’t hate Boston for that. At least the refs don’t kick out your fansfor yelling at them.
But...
Redick charging over Glen Davis at the end of game 2 will be my favorite reffing gaffe of this series. You can have Perkins, I will take that. They were both ludicrous.
hahahaha
no one is calling for him to have a career threatening injury against him (maybe some, but that’s certainly extreme). what ron borges and the vast majority of us are calling for is a taste of dwights own medicine. That would come in the form of a hard foul, take your pick which one of Dwights we want to duplicate, they come in many forms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Nk94-3y_4
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
dwight gets fouled hard frequently
and he gets hit more than anyone in the league while on the low post. most of that contact is never called.
but in this series esp the last two games
everything changed. the league office wanted a game 6 and a real series
if they blew whistles on howard as they did in the magic vs bobcats series, C’s would have been preparing for the final already.
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I recall the League wanting Kobe VS LeBron last year
How did that work out.
And Celtics fans who complain about refs are funny.
Yes the NBA would much rather have Magic Lakers than
Celtics Lakers.
Economic understanding FAIL
I am Black.
do you have any sense of logic?
what does your reply having to do with what i posted above? i feel i shall not continue this conversation or its just pure waste of time. you got ECF championship last year, congratulations! how great that was! okay?
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
hey whiny celtics fans...
check out the dwight howard elbow that broke courtney lee’s face last year… yeah, one of his best friends on the team…
the play is almost IDENTICAL to the big baby play..
i love how all the boston fans become delusional as they begin to tremble at the thought of being the first team ever to blow a 3-0 lead. it makes me positively giddy
its better said then done, in this case
and do you know what is more disgusting? having an innocent smile on his goofy face after committing such cheap fouls like he knew nothing about it
by friedgreentomatoes on May 28, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Just play ball
I don’t like Howard, and I think the refs let him get away with a lot of pushing and several goal tends
but the object is to win the game
concentrate on defense, rebounding, and the fast break
forget the nonsense
and never hurt someone even if it would help you win the game
Just out of curiosity, because I haven't gone there, but are there
a bunch of asinine Celtics fans on the Magic blog?
Are you calling me asinine? ;)
Our teams are in a heated series, so there is some auto-distaste there, but does that mean we have to dislike each other?
by alwaysforgiven821 on May 28, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
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