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Game 6: The Saddest Cut of All

Speaking personally now, I find this game 6 that just ended both the saddest thing I’ve ever seen from the Celtics... and something that is ultimately good (for me).

It is simply not possible – knowing these guys as we do – that the Celtics came out with the kind of almost-TOTALLY ABSENT energy, commitment and urgency we saw from them in game 6. We saw this team in game 5. We heard them talking thereafter. No human being, with human emotions, goes from THAT level of energy and commitment, to what we saw tonight. It’s just not reasonably possible.

Therefore, I must come to the final, saddest conclusion of all. That these games have been fixed. Not completely – game 5 was real enough, for example, because it didn’t matter who won. (So long as the OTHER team won the next one.)

Before tonight, I wrote that it was possible that the fix was in, and that you couldn't dismiss that possibility. Now, I’m beyond that. Now for me it’s a virtual certainty. There is simply no other reasonable explanation for the unfathomable play we saw from our guys in this game.

I could go into the details – the endless missed layups and dunks, the lackadaisical, careless defense, and the strange, unnatural CALM with which they played SO badly – but really, anyone watching that game must have seen it all too.

Some will argue, no doubt. Some will say "You’re nuts. You always see conspiracies. Etc., etc." But history shows that I am not nuts. My record is as good as records come. No... this time, it is going to be the people who DENY the obvious – the fix – that will be putting their heads in the sand.

How did it happen? Who’s responsible? I don’t know. There are many possibilities. They range from the league office being involved, to people within the Celtics and Lakers organizations, to both, to even other entities being involved. Did Wyc sit down with Doc, Rondo, Paul and who-knows-who-else and say: "Hey guys, we’ve got to lose game 6, because if we don’t get a game 7, we’ll be out XX millions of dollars, and so will the NBA, and we’ll all go broke and you’ll be out of a job?" Did Stern make some calls? Are the television networks involved? Gambling figures? Who the hell knows. It’s some combination of the above, most likely.

But the FACT that the fix is in to extend this to 7 games is something of which I am now CONVINCED. Not 100%, but damn close to it.

And this is very sad news. To think this series has been fixed is a shot through the heart for me, on some very real level.

But on another, even more personal level, I’m glad. Because there’s no doubt that these Celtics have become an obsession for me. Now, FINALLY... I know I am cured.

There is no way that I can now continue following and caring so much about the Celtics or the NBA. Not after this series. It’s over. I’m cured. How can anyone care about something so obviously manipulated? Manipulated for maximum profitability. It’s impossible. For me, anyway.

So... these will be my last few posts. I’m outta here after this series.

It has been great fun... no question about it. I still believe that what the Cs did this season was real. I’m sure of that, and always will be. And it was great.

But they succumbed in the end to the financial realities. Of that I am also sure. And I can’t really blame them, truth be told. I probably would have done the same thing. I mean... there’s basketball, and then there’s the real world. With THAT much money at stake – their whole lives, and those of their families too at stake – how can you blame them for playing along? I can’t.

But neither can I get emotionally involved in their little show, their scams. That’s too much to expect too.

I had hoped that the Celtics' struggles and triumphs were pure, something noble and excellent in an otherwise screwed-up world. I was wrong about that. (Not completely. But they are far from pure.)

So that’s it.

Reality sets in.

It is what it is.

Be respectful and keep it clean. Thanks.

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Sheed would say something if he sniffed shenanigans

Believe dat.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 12:27 AM EDT reply actions  

And he might still

…one day. (Or they might have kept it from him, knowing his temperament.)

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm guessing they only recently fixed games because if they didn't

then someone like Walker could pay off his debts by threatening to blow the whistle.

by eastie Rich on Jun 16, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

no..

you’re taking two unrelated things ..
the refs did not impact this game..
it was what it was.

the Celtics may want a game 7 .. just because that’s what
they are .. pitbulls with their backs against the wall
“all the marbles” as KG just said.

maybe they wanted that.

by Snowball on Jun 16, 2010 12:36 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it's natural to have that there is a cushion in the back of your minds

Especially when things start to slip away like they did today.

It wasn’t like Game 4 2008, where they kept fighting because they didn’t want to lose all three at home.

Game 7 is going to be testy testy testy, with BOTH team with their backs against the wall.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, not after the way they played game 5

… and the way they talked after game 5. It’s highly UNnatural. Impossible to believe, for me… not that they could lose, but that they could play with such SLOTH, so little energy or attention or CARING. It just does not compute.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ah c'mon there was point in the third quarter you could feel the Celtics mentally pack it in

My sense of course, but it’s totally natural to not want to exert all your effort for naught, especially when it could hamper your stamina for the next game

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you're positive then...

…why even root for this Celtics team? They would have had to be in on it all if this is true. Why even follow the NBA at all then?

I fail to understand why the conspiracy theorists even hang around if they’re so sure the NBA is rigged. The conclusion seems completely illogical to me in this game especially but if it’s so why torture yourself with every game?

Celtics got a bit spoiled in Boston but LA came to play and caught them flat footed in game 6 just as Boston was able to do to LA a couple of times. I don’t expect it to happen in game 7.

by poorwebguy on Jun 16, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're entitled to your opinion

But I think you have to be an ostrich not to see this obvious truth.

As for why I root and follow… the “fixing” didn’t happen all season. It’s not the WWE. It happened NOW. So NOW… now that I SEE it… yes, I am going to walk away from the NBA. Of course.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

…and if you’re right then you’re making the logical choice.

by poorwebguy on Jun 16, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personally, I think that once Perk went down

the team just got completely flustered and let it slip away in the first half. Then they came out the 2nd half and knew they didn’t have it so they half-assed it, as we’ve seen throughout a big chunk of this season.

I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned, but I’d like to point out the time difference. This game started at 9:00 PST, or midnight Eastern, and played til nearly 3am EST. They only have a day to adjust, and after such a physical game on Sunday, they probably needed the rest. I know these guys are professionals and deal with this all the time, but it can’t be easy. Which is why I don’t get the schedule for the finals. There were three days off between Games 1 and 2 and between 4 and 5, both of which were at the same venue, but only two days off between travel. I thought the whole purpose of the 2-3-2 was so TV crews weren’t rushed between moves? Wouldn’t it make sense to put the three days off between travel?

However, I’ve been saying since Game 4 that Stern would force a Game 7. Not a doubt in my mind that he gets some sort of cut from this. And if you look down through NBA history, the games that seemed iffy tend to be Game 6’s in marquee matchups.

However, if this Celtics team has taught us anything, it’s that they don’t like being blownout, and they usually come out the next game pretty pissed. Expect this Thursday. Perk will play, the Big Three will be on, and Rondo will be cutting and diving like never before. Plus we’ll actually get something from the bench.

by KY Celts fan on Jun 16, 2010 2:15 AM EDT reply actions  

I expect the Cs to win game 7

For many reasons… chief among them: we’re the best team. And everybody is going to play a great game.

Also, in watching Kobe give his postgame interview, I got the clear impression that he EXPECTS TO LOSE game 7. Yeah, i know… sounds crazy… but that’s what I got

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously, I think you're nuts

We established that a long time ago.

But… what on earth did Kobe say that made you think he thought he’d lose?

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Fortunately I crashed and missed most of the second half, when I awoke, Doc was at the
podium and well…Bring it for Game 7, boys!

His mother has a tattoo that reads, "Son".
"I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
Stay thirsty my friends."

by Great Gatsby on Jun 16, 2010 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which only proves that people never really change

…something I already knew.

Even after everything we went through — with you calling me nuts every step of the way and then being completely PROVEN wrong — you do it again. Lol. Well, at least you’re consistent.

This truth will also come out. But not right away. It might take years.

The Kobe demeanor thing, btw, is just an impression. Of course I’m not sure about that one… it’s just a thought. A throwaway bit of fluff.

But the FACT that this series WAS FIXED… of that I am CERTAIN now… as certain as I can be. And I do NOT understand ANYONE who doesn’t see it. It’s clear as can be now. Extremely obvious… if you have followed this team all year, which you have.

Which begs the question: Why do you not see it? How can you continue to follow this mockery of a sport? Are there answers to these questions?

(Yes, this is an exact copy of my reply to Vinnie :)

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because you are suffering from confirmation bias

You are only taking in the evidence that supports your theory, and ignoring the evidence that contradicts it, making you very certain of the “correctness” of your theory.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

And pray tell

… what evidence exists that “contradicts” this conclusion? (Note: it’s not a “theory” any longer. I am stating this as fact.)

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

The one thing I hate about post game interviews is Bryants demeanor...

the guy is blessed with so much talent on the court but off it, he is way,way below MJ in my book . The guy ain’t got no class whatsoever. I really hope this guy loses gm 7.

"No I’m not KG. Not at all, but I’m Big Baby Glen Davis from LSU, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I’m not the Big Ticket. I’m the Ticket Stub. Don’t count the Ticket Stub out. You might need the ticket to get in the game, but you leave with the ticket stub, because you’ll never forget this game."

by bopna on Jun 16, 2010 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

We all know he has no class but what about Phil?

Man, I’m watching this pompous jerk and thinking “what on earth did this guy ever do to be so successfull?” Really, if there’s any kind of karma at all, he should loose the last game by 50 points.

by eastie Rich on Jun 16, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah because

Jordan’s ability to work the camera stopped him from occasionally punching a teammate or two for besting him in practice. lol.

by Marty Mart on Jun 17, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which only proves that people never really change

…something I already knew.

Even after everything we went through — with you calling me nuts every step of the way and then being completely PROVEN wrong — you do it again. Lol. Well, at least you’re consistent.

This truth will also come out. But not right away. It might take years.

The Kobe demeanor thing, btw, is just an impression. Of course I’m not sure about that one… it’s just a thought. A throwaway bit of fluff.

But the FACT that this series WAS FIXED… of that I am CERTAIN now… as certain as I can be. And I do NOT understand ANYONE who doesn’t see it. It’s clear as can be now. Extremely obvious… if you have followed this team all year, which you have.

Which begs the question: Why do you not see it? How can you continue to follow this mockery of a sport? Are there answers to these questions?

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why do you not see it?

I know why you do see it – it’s confirmation bias, you are only accepting the evidence that supports your theory, and ignoring evidence that contradicts it. Therefore, in your view, everything you see points to the accuracy of your theory. But just because some things fit your model does not make it right – you have to take into account the things that do not fit the model, and explain those.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

See above

What evidence exists to contradict these conclusions?

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't offer proof of something not existing

But I can say that we know that the players and coaches have a lot more pride than to let the game they love be reduced that, especially KG , and Ray Allen who is an upstanding citizen … I don’t think there is any amount of money that would let them be comprised like that

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I must tell you

That is a very naive point of view. NOT putting you down. Just telling you… that OF COURSE there is an amount of money and influence that can be applied to ANYONE to get them to go along with this kind of thing.

Hey…. IT’S JUST A GAME. Versus the security of yourself and your family. Come on — is it even close?

(And btw… not asking you to prove a negative. Just asking for the “evidence” you said earlier that I was “ignoring”.)

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes it may be I will admit that

But I don’t think the “proof” you’re offering is based on hard evidence either.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, no hard evidence

I think it’s fair to say that it’s impossible for us to have hard evidence, since we have no access to the people and documents that would provide it.

If laws were broken — which might not be the case, btw — then some agency, sometime, might get to the truth. Otherwise, we must wait for the next bird to sing.

But I believe I am right based on what I saw in game 6, combined with my knowledge of these players. It is not POSSIBLE for them to play as they did — in a vital game 6 of the FINALS — unless ulterior forces were at work.

It wasn’t that they lost. It was the almost total lack of effort and energy. It’s just not believable that that was real.

You know… in our society, people are often convicted of serious crimes… even EXECUTED (which is very wrong, of course)… on the basis of what we would call “soft” evidence. Circumstantial evidence. So… it’s reasonable to use it.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I agree with you on the execution thing.

Otherwise, we’re at loggerheads again.

Why wouldn’t Stern have fixed the 2008 series? Or the 2009 series? Or all the other series that didn’t go seven games the last thirty years?

You can claim something to be fact or truth but that’s all it is – a claim, and one that’s unsubstantiated and, as Gil notes, perverted by confirmation bias.

I mostly find it funny. But I can’t take it seriously despite your earnestness.

Sorry dude.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your questions are meaningless, and irrelevant

How do you know what was or wasn’t done earlier?

How should I/we know WHY it was not done earlier, if it wasn’t? Irrelevant…. we’re not discussing past series. We’re discussing the evidence of our eyes in THIS series.

What is relevant here is the evidence we SAW watching this game. How can you explain their total lack of effort, in a FINALS game 6? After the way they won #5, and the way they talked? They’d have to be inhuman.

No, it’s just not feasible that all that happened naturally.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow - you're testy today

It wasn’t a total lack of effort. They made a lot of first and second efforts on offense the Lakers extinguished.

And their D wasn’t awful, to be honest. In terms of overall efficiency.

It’s a reasonable question to ask. If this series is fixed, why would it be the first time? A logical thinking conspiracy theorist would have to assume that previous years were also fixed by Herr Stern. But so few series have gone seven games. It makes one wonder.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much money is it then

Kobe makes 20+ million a year without endorsements guaranteed. Pierce, Allen, KG, 10+ million. Hell even Shannon Brown is making 2 million. So who are these people that need security for themselves and their family. Mbenga, Gaffney, Scalabrine, Josh Powell, Adam Morrison (hell even he makes over a milion). What is this monetary incentive you speak of? This isn’t boxing, you don’t get a cut of the profits from the bets put in. There are no players on this court who have more to gain than lose for doing something like this. If you want to put it on Stern, I can laugh at it but I can’t refute it. But when it comes to the players, too many players are making too much money to even be phased by an extra million for throwing game 6. Not to mention the promise of being able to do anything basketball-related in the future as long as they DON’T do this. There is no concrete evidence anywhere to suggest that game 6 was fixed on the part of the players. Unless, you’re going to use ticket revenue for Staples Center as an incentive for the Celtics. Makes no logical sense why the Celtics benefit from a game 7 in any way, shape, or form. They get bonuses for making it to the Finals, another for winning it. They get no additional bonuses for it being 7 games. If anything, winning two days ago would’ve carried more incentive than losing. Saying the players played with a lack of effort is one thing, but Sasha Vujacic airballed a ft after draining 40% of his 3-pt attempts. Ron Artest was going to hit a three again sometime. The Lakers reserves under Vujacic didn’t hit a shot. The Lakers overall shot only 41%, which is pretty poor considering pace and the lead of the game. You played Shelden Williams who hasn’t played meaningful basketball all year. Its naive for you to think that something has to tell these players to lay off a game because its your team. I’m not fraught with conspiracy theories, but I can see when patterns emerge. There is no pattern in these finals to follow. Ray Allen has an all world shooting performance followed by a slump. Normal for a shooter, especially when 7 footers start blocking your shots and jumping out at you. Paul Pierce isn’t the first player to struggle against Artest, and KG is playing against someone his size with a similar skillset and good defense. He’s going to be on again, off again. Rondo isn’t a great midrange shooter so when the majority of his shots come from there, as in last game, its not going to be the same as when he’s leaking out in transition and getting into the lane. Not to mention that sometimes players just miss. There is not even an ounce of silly putty to start the foundation of your evidence of these finals being rigged, especially since you yourself can’t even predict whats next to happen. You’re guessing whats going to happen just like everyone else. Its easy for people to try to make up circumstances for things they can’t predict or understand. There is no conspiracy here on the part of the players, hell even the refs have been bearable the last couple games after calling it extremely tight the first two.

by Marty Mart on Jun 17, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rational thought...

If the games are truly fixed then at the very least the key players and coaching staff from both teams would have to be involved. One could make an argument for the refs but in this case there really was nothing they could have done to affect the outcome.

That kind of conspiracy simply has too many moving parts to exists for long especially given so many analysts and media covering each game.

I believe the refs do some things…for instance trying to slow LA in the 4th quarter from completely embarrassing the C’s with a 30+ point win. I don’t believe they throw games. Another example would be the T Sheed should have gotten in game 5 I believe. It wasn’t going to happen because it would have seriously hurt the C’s in a finals series.

Another thing to look at…game 3 and Derek fishers clutch play. This whole conspiracy thing was brought up following that game again. The best actors in the world probably couldn’t do what he did in the 4th on the first cut. It just doesn’t happen. Fisher turned it up, just like big baby in game 4. The only way to say that was scripted would be to claim both team spent a few hours going over their parts together some time before the game.

More to consider…some of these same players that would have to be in on the conspiracy play very hard when then get a full head of steam. Many times they even managed to play like they have a title on the line. They would have to be pretty solid actors to pull that off.

Also, the beautiful tactics that we see each team employ to get the edge on the other would be completely unnecessary or at the very least wouldn’t have evolved to the level that they have. This would result from sound strategies not working when they should be because the game is somehow influenced to go the opposite direction than it should.

What I see in this conspiracy theory, from whatever side it comes from, is two teams that are used to having dominate performances and think they can “flip the switch”. Certain C’s fans used to seeing their team put up a solid performance might think they threw game 6 because LA stepped up the defense finally and came out with energy and aggression. This is why this is only rehashed when the Cs lose.

The reality is Cs and LA are very close defensively and both are capable of solid offense. When both teams play defense we will have our hard fought and sometimes ugly games. When one side plays defense a bit lack luster and the other comes with energy game 6 happens. Or game 5 even. Or game 4 in the 4th quarter.

As a Lakers fan, Game 1 should have been much uglier than it was as far as blowouts go. Game 4, 4th quarter should never have happened. Likewise, some Cs fans feel they should have swept the finals…all in your perspective I guess.

The point is, looking at things rationally I don’t believe a case can be made for the finals being rigged in this NBA. From the look of things the two best teams in the NBA are here where they belong and a game 7 was pretty much destiny.

“knowing these guys as we do” really discredits itself as the argument it’s trying to make implies you must not have known them as well as you think you did.

by poorwebguy on Jun 17, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

U got ur time zones mixed up

This game started at 9AM EST (not PST). I live on te east coast, I’m positive. It would be bad marketing for Stern to let a game start that late, he would lose viewers

~Aaron

by bostonceltics on Jun 16, 2010 8:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yea, i realized my mistake

surprised it took someone so long to catch it! but its just proof that sleep deprivation and time change can mess with your head! haha!

by KY Celts fan on Jun 16, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

DRJ1 I won't dismiss your claims.

stranger thinks have happened. It happens in the real FOOTBALL all the time. Research (2006 Italian football scandal)

The past couple years, we’ve established NBA do rig games & have crook officials. But what we haven’t established yet if Clubs are involved in the match fixing. Hey man, anything is possible is these strange times. NBA benefits, Celtics benefits, Lakers benefits.
 
Throw ethics outta the door, cause Its all about the money at the end of the day. They don’t care, if cash is coming.

by Change on Jun 16, 2010 3:46 AM EDT reply actions  

I still love the Celtics

But they live in a rotten universe. To continue to follow the NBA would require some adjustment in my thinking for the FACT that game/series are fixed. How do you do that??

Really… I’d love to know…. how do you live with the fact that they fix series? Especially the most important one?

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get you, I really do.

It’s just since I moved to L.A. (I’m now cursed, I know), I’ve been a STH to the Clippers (no more). What I wouldn’t do to be able to watch a good, decent, championship contending team.

by eastie Rich on Jun 16, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh come ondo

you wouldn’t have written this article if they won that game.

“Hey guys, we’ve got to lose game 6, because if we don’t get a game 7, we’ll be out XX millions of dollars, and so will the NBA, and we’ll all go broke and you’ll be out of a job?”

are you serious? these players already make millions and all of them would just give in to greed? i doubt it.

don’t you think they were tired from the cross-country trip with just one day rest? similar to what happened in game 3?

it’s good to know that this is your last post. bye!

by xstatic6 on Jun 16, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Didn't say this was the last one

But it’s close.

This truth is so obvious, that I really do not understand those who actually DENY it. I can see being not willing to fully buy in, so long as you remain AT LEAST doubtful. But to deny it altogether…. that I don’t understand. That requires either (a) the inability to process information, and/or (b) the ability to set aside what you SEE, in favor of what you want to BELIEVE.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's a question

If the Celtics win tomorrow night, will you be ecstatic?

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course

And I expect them to win. I believe the teams will be allowed to play their guts out tomorrow. I see no logic to fixing that last game… the point was just to get to 7.

So yes, most of the games this season were not “just show”. I recognize that the Cs’ struggles and triumphs this year were mostly real. But… I still can’t live with the fact that the NBA fixed the Finals to go the full 7. To continue to be a fan… .well… I would need to have some model, some line of thinking that allows for the fact that certain game and series are fixed. I just can’t find that line. I can’t bring myself to follow a sport whose most important series are fixed.

But if you could give me some line of thinking that works, I’d be grateful.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Think of it as a one game playoff

And ignore the first six games.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

:)

Yes… well, that’s what I am doing.

Understand that I said I’m quitting AFTER this series.

Yes, game 7 is the1-game series.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't say for sure now

It’s quite possible that the 2 teams will have a gigantic battle and that the Cs will lose naturally.

But if the NBA was willing to fix the series to go the full 7, they’re certainly not beyond fixing game 7 too. So THEORETICALLY, I can’t discount that in advance.

I just doubt it. I believe game 7 will be a real game.

I will, however, reserve final judgment until AFTER we see it.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let`s face facts....There are only 2 ways Boston could win Game 7

1} They shoot 60-65% from the floor.

2} Gasol sprains his knee 30 seconds into the game.

by Title 18 on Jun 16, 2010 1:17 PM EDT reply actions  

If it turns out that way...

It will make the accomplishments of 1969 team look as though they were eliminated in the opening round!

by Title 18 on Jun 16, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

It will happen. Cs will win.

I’m pretty confident. And I’d be SHOCKED BEYOND WORDS if they come out as they did in game 6.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

And if the Lakers win

It will be fair and square, right?

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

See above

Probably yes. But must see the game to be surer.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cannot pin you down

what would be the reasoning for fixing it for one team, now that the series has gone 7? Nevermind, I can come up with something for that, too… say “Lakers will bring in more interest if they win a back to back title, rather than an older Celtics squad with less staying power”.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can dream up motives

Gambling, for one. But really, we don’t need to know WHY. Just that it’s POSSIBLE, given their history. I think most people would agree that it’s “possible”. So we must wait and see the game. Of course.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I admire you, you really have all your bases covered

For whatever the result is.

I will now go out on a limb and place the lowest probability on this scenario: Lakers win AND you think Game 7 was not fixed.

and the highest probability is Lakers win AND Game 7 fixed (only bc I am a homer, and I think the lakers will win)

second highest is Celtics Win and Game 7 not fixed

third highest is Celtics win and game 7 fixed

which bring us back to Laker win, game 7 not fixed as the “hell will freeze over before you believe this” option.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

My view

Highest probability of all is: Celtics win and no fix. Because I think they’re the better team, and easily.

Second highest is Lakers win, no fix. Because I really don’t believe game 7 will be fixed. (Just not sure, of course.)

Third: As Pastor Green said, IF there is a fix, it would more likely go to the Lakers. Therefore, third = Lakers win, fix was in.

Least likely: Celtics win, fix was in.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is just an awesome back and forth

I’m really enjoying this.

No sarcasm implied.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

so...

what’s the verdict? I have my guess.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 18, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Some Slanting-- I suspect bias, but not pre-judgement

I doubt that the NBA would dare fix the games blatantly, but I expect that there is some manipulation of games integrated into the league’s feedback to the refs, as Dougherty states. This probably causes the refs to favor certain players and certain teams in certain situations. Seeing as the NBA is a business, it would make sense if big market teams often got preferential tratment and big name players got star treatment. This seems to be the case. I expect that most players have tacit knowledge of how this works, but prefer to take the approach that they can over come it when a game isn’t called their way. Sometimes they can, sometimes not. Looking at Kobe after a game that he doesn’t win, I can almost hear him wanting to say, “I would have won the damn thing if they had called it my way!” I suspect it is his way of crying, “sour grapes.” He is a big name star in a huge market town, making him (and the Lakers- I wouldn’t be surprised if the Gasol trade got a push from someone above the ranks) one of the top 2 or 3 most favored players in the game, so I expect he is a bit used to having it his way. Basketball has become so hard to call that both sides have legitimate grievances— the problem is when it tips one way or the other.
I could be wrong (hope I am), but I expect game 7 calls to favor the Lakers for several reasons: 1) bigger market 2) more popular overall 3) helps rivalry, as both teams will have a victory over the other 4) help Kobe’s marketability (The league would love a “Jordan” back, one way or another.) 5) home court, proably the least important reason
 On the opposite side Boston has: 1) Celtic mystique— no longer so popular outside Boston 2) Faded star appeal of big 3 and possible star potential of Rhondo 3) The comparison to the last victory of Russell over the Lakers, again, not so big a deal outside Boston, but it makes a good story.
Hopefully the Cs will persevere and win, even if they must overcome their lesser status. I think that they have done this in the playoffs already (I’m fairly sure that the league would have loved James here.), so they can do it again if they don’t get too discouraged. Just makes it harder than it should be— the Lakers probably can’t beat them, but the league just might, for the sake of the pocketbook.

by Pastor Green on Jun 16, 2010 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Speculation

“Looking at Kobe after a game that he doesn’t win, I can almost hear him wanting to say, "I would have won the damn thing if they had called it my way!" "

While others have said things less subtle in post game pressers, Kobe rarely, if ever, mentions officiating. He does it in game, for sure, but when the game is done, he just about never goes after the refs.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

While possible, I don't believe game 7 will be influenced

My best guess is that they’ll let them play. The refs interfered so much in the first couple of games that EVERYBODY, including most of the major media outlets, cried foul about it. The NBA does not want that happening after a Finals game 7. So it’s likely they’ll keep the refs out of it.

And notice how, after the outcry over the refs, they STOPPED influencing games as much as they had earlier, and the TEAMS took over. Game 6 was thrown BY THE CELTICS, not the refs.

And so it goes. We must wait to see game 7 before passing judgment on the refs’ input. The teams, however, I’m pretty sure will go all out in this one.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, he clams up and smiles. In fact, he complains so little that I suspect he is holding back a whopper. Just my observation.

by Pastor Green on Jun 16, 2010 3:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments, like, “We just need to stay out of foul trouble,” are telling, however.

by Pastor Green on Jun 16, 2010 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not saying he doesn't think it

But I don’t think he’s ever close to publicly saying it. It’s not his style at all, much as some believe him to be a rat.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Kobe is a rat

I think he’s a great player. And I like his laconic style.

But he does have one fatal, even tragic flaw. He has no concept of what we call Ubuntu. Well… almost no concept. He’s mellowed a bit with age. But fundamentally, his nature if flawed for a team game like basketball.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought they showed ubuntu in spades last night

In fact yahoo! Sports reports that Kobe spend the next day after game 5 “Building up his teammates” … if this were any other player, media would be gushing about inspirational, positive leadership and chemistry …

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

check his avg assists per game for the season

I’m getting the impression that there are fans looking at this series as if it were being played by KG, RA, PP, and KB 1.0. All of these players have aged and most of them have developed different parts of their games to compensate for that or other weaknesses they had.

by poorwebguy on Jun 17, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Lakers

Were a goddamn awesome war machine last night.

I was so impressed at that D. Chased Boston off of everything they wanted.

Boston actually tried a lot harder than they were given credit for. They just got beat.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree

The Celtics had NO energy, no effort. Your own buddy vinnie commented that Rondo was playing with zero energy. Rondo was clearly in on it. Rondo and Paul at minimum on the Cs. Kobe and Fish, most likely, on the Lakers side.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, we disagree on what we saw

The obvious conclusion to you is that there’s an insane conspiracy that takes in dozens, if not hundreds of people.

To me, the C’s got beat because they got chased off of initial offensive options and settled for inefficient hero ball against an inspired defense.

Obviously, I’m the nutcase.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

To me, yes

The level of EFFORT was incomprehensible without invoking ulterior forces.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even though you saw it all year from them in games that were not "fixed"?

To the extent they’ve played harder and better in the playoffs, they’ve still had letdowns (game 3, CLE) and its in this team’s DNA to play poorly when they’re ahead.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh come on

You already saw how the Celtics changed completely in the playoffs. THIS WAS A CLOSEOUT GAME IN THE FINALS, ferkissakes. It’s NOT POSSIBLE that they would blow it off. Not possible. Sorry….. Just. Not. Possible.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait... actually

You ARE saying that they “blew it off” in the sense that they just decided they didn’t care, and played badly just like they had so many times in the regular season. That’s what I mean by “blow it off”.

I know you don’t agree that they purposely threw the game.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I'm saying

Is that they got outplayed and at NO TIME did they throw the game in any way. They got beat.

I think they didn’t bring the effort they should have a lot of times during the regular season, but don’t attribute that to throwing games either.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, we agree on that

My use of the term “blew it off” = didn’t pay attention, played without energy and interest. We’re good

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

And you will see in game 7

How COMPLETELY DIFFERENT the Celtics will be. As Kobe said, because he knows what happened.

Interesting how so many media people were asking WHY there’s such DRASTIC changes from game to game in the way the teams play.

Well… we know why. They’re putting on a show, and they’re not good enough actors to do it perfectly. Who could be?

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Given the Celtics played a bad game

I fully expect a much stronger performance tomorrow.

That would not be evidence of anything but a stronger performance.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

But my understanding of human nature does not permit me to accept as natural the level of effort and interest this team showed in game 6.

Someday, this too will be proven. But unlike our previous battles, not soon, most likely. Too bad about that.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

On that day

Come back to me.

And the first beer’s on me.

by TheOutletPass on Jun 16, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

you are just a fan

and as such, any time your team gets beat it has to be due to some other reason than being outplayed by a better team.

The Big 3 just didn’t show up and weren’t mentally prepared to close out the series on someone else’s floor.

And when they show up better prepared on Thursday (as per Kobe’s comments because that is what he would expect himself to do), the only problem will be that the Lakers will show up as well.

by dodgerblu2 on Jun 16, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

To answer you fully

…would require
a) repeating this whole thread,
b) repeating several past threads, so you know who and what you’re talking about,
c) more time and energy than I care to expend.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

and that's the point

It isn’t as deep a debate as you want it to be.

Per my comment about being a fan — we are all fans and analysts when we want and choose to be. Your comments, at least in this venue and without benefit (nor should be required) of other commentary, fall more to the scale of fan.

And by that same bias, you may under appreciate what knowledge and experience that someone like me may bring to the discussion just because I have not participated to date.

I would happy to buy the second round.

by dodgerblu2 on Jun 16, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guys, I would be happy to join you for that drink

But who knows when that day will come, or even if it will ever come.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I hear you. When I listen to most post-pressers, I hear players talking about what they could have done differently— owning up to their mistakes. I hear little complaints about the refs from Kobe, but I also hear little owning up. He might say, “I stunk,” if asked directly, but mostly he sits there w/o saying anything, making me think he feels robbed— but just isn’t saying it. Of course, I haven’t seen him everytime he lost… so I need to qualify this statement.

by Pastor Green on Jun 16, 2010 3:14 PM EDT reply actions  

I've been accused of being a Kobe Stan, so I do watch those post pressers carefully

He actually seems to hate them because they do him no good , it’s just talk,(he knows he has to do it, bc really the media helps the league’s exposure, which helps pay his salary), it’s not arrogance or cockiness, he’s more of an actions type guy, so he know that talking won’t change anything and only bad can come of it (bulletin board material, distortion of his words among them).

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gil Meriken on Jun 16, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting point about Kobe

In his post-game interview, the way he talked about the Celtics and how they would come out and play in game 7 — he smiled, and said that they would be VERY different in game 7 as opposed to game 6. He smiled like he had inside knowledge of that, inside knowledge that made him ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of what he was saying.

I.e., Kobe KNOWS FOR SURE that the Celtics will be different in game 7 as opposed to game 6, because he knows the Celtics threw game 6. Because, of course, he’s in on the whole thing. (He has to be. He was part of the Lakers throwing game 5, most likely.)

I said earlier that I thought he sounded like he was ready to lose game 7. This is what I meant. It wasn’t really that he knows he’s going to lose… just that he knows the Celtics are going to be playing all-out and for real…. and I think he knows the Lakers can’t beat the Celtics straight up.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Let me explain that

I actually thought game 5 was not fixed… that they just played. But I must admit that it’s possible the Lakers threw game 5 just like the Cs threw game 6, and that my failure to see that earlier was caused by my green-tinged glasses. I mean… the Lakers did play VERY badly in that game. I originally thought it was because of the Cs’ defense. But I realize now that maybe it was not.

Not sure about this one, because I don’t know the Lakers as well as I know the Celtics.

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not just Kobe...

EVERYONE knows the C’s will be different – since that has been their pattern all playoffs after a flat game loss

by nba is the worst on Jun 17, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

so much free time ...

The best team in the finals is the Lakers. And their most formidable opponent is themselves. What is scary is how tough the Lakers might be next year if they close out against Boston.

When they are motivated and focused, they have won games 1 and 6 by dominating every statistical category.

Game 3 on Boston home court to grab back home court immediately showed LA’s strengths again.

When they have lost in games 2 and 4, the games have been close enough to go either way. The block called on Kobe with the Celtics up by 6 was one of the worst calls of the series. Both the announcers and replay showed Kobe setting up in position almost a foot in front of the circle and taking the charge — Laker ball going the other way would have been a huge swing.

Boston has shown why it beat the Cavs and Magic — experience and desire. Problem is the Lakers have as much plus they have home court (and LA Staples isn’t Cleveland or Orlando).

Tough break for Boston about Perkins — but Bynum has been injured all of the last three years and his playing through his injury during these playoffs is remarkable and ridiculous.

Boston would have beaten any of the other western teams.

Staples will be rocking on Thursday — and Kobe will be holding the Bill Russell trophy.

by dodgerblu2 on Jun 16, 2010 3:50 PM EDT reply actions  

so Lakers threw games 2, 4 and 5?

game 4…BBD and NR in the 4th? Game 5 LA shooting under 40%? Not typical for sure. Technically I had these games down to a combination of LA laziness and good defense from the C’s.

Game 7 winner = best in the NBA?

by poorwebguy on Jun 17, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

so does that mean.....

If the C’s win Thursday night, you won’t be celebrating because the fix was in? I agree with many of the other posters. Why continue to watch, then? Why not just check out now? I personally don’t think the NBA fixed anything. I’d have an easier time believing the refs had something to do with the outcomes of alot of these post season games. However I do feel that something that big doesn’t stay secret for long. Ease up a bit and enjoy the game, and should the Celtics win, go have a beer. You have some great pubs in that town.

by LakazzNation on Jun 16, 2010 5:09 PM EDT reply actions  

 Die-hard Lakers fans should hold the refs to a high standard and watch for calls that favor their team. There is every reason for NBA marketers to prefer their victory, so if their team wins it will be suspect. If the Lakers win, it is more likely to be a biased victory for the reasons I stated above. After much watching, I happen to beleive that it is bias, not pre-judgement that is the operating principle of reffing. It has been easier call-wise for the Lakers to win than the Celts, and this, more than home court, is what gives them the advantage. Such is my opinion— for now.

by Pastor Green on Jun 16, 2010 5:51 PM EDT reply actions  

You could easily be right, about game 7

Because it’s very doubtful there’s any pre-judgment going on for this one. But ref bias… that’s always possible. We’ll see……

by DRJ1 on Jun 16, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

home team = home cooking

aggressive team = FT advantage. Forcing it up + good defense = no call. 6 techs + whining at refs + finals = no call.

No ref on the planet could have saved C’s from game 6. It’s also apparent that nothing on earth will stop a part of the losing team’s fans from crying about refs, injuries, conspiracies etc etc after game 7.

by poorwebguy on Jun 17, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

look, here's the problem

You’re focusing only on this series as a basis for your claim.

Let’s look at the big picture. If the NBA would want to maximize profits, every series will go 7 games but that would be too obvious. Maybe they’ll have game 7s from time to time but not always. However, in these playoffs, how many game 7s did we have? TWO. There are more sweeps in this series than game 7s. How would the NBA profit from that?

And if the NBA was fixed, the SUNS WOULDNT HAVE SWEPT THE SPURS, we wouldn’t have won the first 3 games against the Magic, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, the finals matchup would have been Kobe vs Lebron, Lakers vs Cavs, that goes to Game 7. That would be the most profitable. But now we have the Celtics vs Lakers, which is profitable, but not as much as Cavs vs Lakers would have been.

I am not hating, I just think facts should be used, not emotions or feelings, when dealing with these kinds of stuff, i.e. profit maximization and fixing games. Look at these facts, they happened already, and with these facts I CAN SAY THAT THE NBA IS NOT FIXED. Hell, the playoffs have been boring as hell (not for us since we’re Celtics fans), and if the NBA wanted profits, the playoffs wouldn’t have been this boring.

Again, I’m not hating, but how can the NBA be fixed based on these facts?

by xstatic6 on Jun 17, 2010 8:06 AM EDT reply actions  

correction

there WERE more sweeps in this PLAYOFFS than game 7s

by xstatic6 on Jun 17, 2010 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

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