Future HOF Starting Lineup?
by Jeff Clark on Aug 15, 2010 3:43 PM EDT
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Who doesn't love a good old fashioned Hall of Fame discussion to keep the offseason rolling? So I started thinking, is it possible that we might be able to start an all future Hall of Fame starting lineup next year? I mean, at some point Jermaine O'Neal might have to sit out a game or two in the first half of the season, putting Dr. O'Neal in the starting lineup.
Clearly the biggest leap of faith in this argument is projecting Rajon Rondo's career arch. Can he keep improving his game? Can he either develop a better jump shot or find a way to ensure that he's never limited by that weakness? Can he sustain his high level of performance and remain healthy?
Personally I think he's got as good a shot as anyone his age. He's already got a championship under his belt and he's been in two Finals in just 4 years in the league. I think the key for him will be to get back to the Finals in the post-Big-Three era. If he can do that, he'll prove that he's more than just a really good player lucky enough to be surrounded by the greats of the game.
The only other debate that I see might be surrounding Paul Pierce. Some will argue that he's never been the best or even one of the top 5 best players in any one year in which he played. With that said, he's going to retire with some gaudy offensive career stats, he's got a title (over the Lakers no less), and he's become the face of the Celtics modern era. Even speaking objectively (which is very hard here), I find it difficult to believe that he would be left out of the HOF.
Kevin Garnett has to be a lock. He's a former MVP and has been dominant for the majority of his career. Ray Allen would appear to be a lock as well. He's the greatest modern day shooter in the game (yes, I put him ahead of Reggie Miller - though that might be another debate). And Shaq, well, he was one of the top 50 players in the game and continued to build upon his resume in the years that followed.
So what do you think? Could we field a future HOF lineup? Does anyone know if it has happened before? I'm sure it has but I'm struggling to think of when. The 1986 Celtics now have 4 of 5 but Danny Ainge would need to be added (in part for his GM work?) to make it happen.
Bonus Link: Kurt Helin offers his own thoughts on the subject: Can Boston start an all future hall of famers lineup? - ProBasketballTalk
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1962-63 Celtics
The ‘62-63 Celtics had Bill Russell, Tommy Heinsohn, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, and Bob Cousy. Havlicek wasn’t starting at that point; however, there would’ve been times he would’ve been on the court with the other 4.
The 1959-62 teams had six HOFers...
Russell, Tommy, Sharman, S. Jones, K.C. Jones, Cousy
That ’63 team had seven: Russell, Tommy, Havlicek, Jones, Jones, Cousy, Lovellette
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
easily could.
barring injuries rondo could be a hall of famer when its all said and done.
gives us alot of experience to share with our young bigs harangody, erden, perkins. who wouldnt want to play along side and learn from jermaine, shaq, kg, pierce, ray…..we should see alot more easy alley-oop passses from rondo this year too. gonna be lots of fun to watch. i just hope the lockout doesnt happen so we can enjoy two full seasons of this team
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
i can just see delonte west winning a game of poker against lebron, throwing down the cards he yells, "who's your daddy!"...."oh, sorry man"
by remembering9ergods on Aug 15, 2010 4:22 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah. I have been a fan for nearly 9 years.
His greatness isn’t even debatable. He’s a lock for the HOF.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot." - Bill Russell
by Marjun Raposon on Aug 16, 2010 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I think pp is a lock, look of that type of player he has bypassed those that where handed HOF cred from early on, namely T-mac and vince carter. I think the year the big three formed you had kobe, wade, and a yet to be really proven LeBron, especially defensively at the time, and then there was pierce, maybe the still clinging duncan, so top five either way.
by chicagogreen on Aug 15, 2010 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think people discount that year too
I think pierce was a top 5 player that year, getting some mild MVP consideration
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Jeff asked the biggest question about Rajon’s chances of becoming known as a HOF: can he shoot a consisten jumper/ freethrow?
It’s the most glaring weakness in his game, and one that needs to be fixed before the C’s say goodbye to Ray and KG. While his floater (along with that stunning Dream Shake) has improved over the past two years, there will come a time that his body will wear down and he won’t be able to sprint into the lane with abandon.
He’ll HAVE to develop a reliable jumper within the next two years. If not, he’ll find that his talents really do have a ceiling.
No that's false...
Obviously we all want Rondo to shoot better from the outside and especially the free throw line. However, you can have weaknesses and make the hall of fame. His other talents are so good, that he could go his whole career without ever consistently hitting a jumper and be a hall of fame player. Keep in mind, he’s already been an all star without one and won a championship. When we talk about whether or not a player is hall of fame caliber, we typically bring up all star appearances and rings first. So really all Rondo has to do is sustain what he’s been doing the past couple seasons for another 10 and he’s in. Jumper is irrelevant to making the hall of fame.
SCOTT
You're absolutely right.
Having a consistent jumper is irrelevant to making the hall, but that wasn’t my point.
How many years will Rajon be able to cut into the lane and score on floaters? That’s a lot of abuse he’s taking in the lane, and quickness isn’t something that is synonymous with age.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of Rajon. He’s probably the only player that I would cheer for if he weren’t wearing green. My point is simple: he won’t stay quick and nimble forever, and having a reliable jumper will stave off retirement once he is unable to make those drives, thus giving him a few more years to win rings and be elected to all-star games.
I would say that getting a reliable FT shot is more important than the outside jumper.
Rondo has two weaknesses to his game so far: Free throws and the outside jumper.
Obviously, improving either of these helps his game.
But I have always argued that improving his FT makes him a more dangerous player because then he will be able to go inside without hesitation with the goal of creating fouls. Doc recently said as much himself – that he wants Rondo to improve in FTs more than anything else.
Jermaine O’Neal once was far worse at FTs than Rondo – worse even than Shaq. Now he’s a 75% shooter from the line. So guys can improve and I expect Rondo to do so.
no, THAT is false.
He will not be an elite player at his size/position unless a jumper is developed. He is not Shaq. Even Stockton had a good jump shot his last 8 years.
His game will be increasingly one dimensional as he ages and cannot rely on those speed based moves.
and i really like Rondo’s game, but he needs to make FT’s and a jumper. period.
by lakersbluedevil on Aug 16, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
no, THIS is false.
Rondo is the best Point guard in the history of the NBA.
I think we can pretty much count on everyone except Rondo
I agree, leaving Pierce out would be surprising to me. Rondo is just too early in his career to tell. There have been a lot of great players that didn’t last that long. First example that comes to my mind is in football, Larry Johnson looked phenomenal for a couple years and now he’s subpar. They won’t be talking about the hall for him.
Rondo will depending.
A lot on what talent is surrounding him in coming years. He has the potential to put up truly gaudy assist numbers, but getting the ball to people in the right spot still depends on them finishing the plays. Not everything can be dunks, and he’s got to have the people around him that get the job done.
But, well all is said and done, at the pace he is putting up numbers, Rondo has a legitimate chance to be in the top 5 All-Time in Assists and Steals. That alone makes him at the least, a consideration for Hall of Fame balloting.
I find it surprising...
that you have Ray a lock and Pierce iffy, Jeff. I think the final’s MVP cemented his place in the HOF. PP also has higher career point, assist, and rebound averages and two more All-NBA 3rd team nods (they both have one 2nd team). I think they both get in, though. Which team do you guys think they go in as (referring to Ray and KG)?
I think Ray will go in as a Celtic, assuming he makes it (I too see PP but not Ray as a lock). KG could go either way. If he wins another title and retires a Celtic, he’ll probably go in as a Celtic. If he switches teams again he should probably go in as a Timberwolf. Otherwise, could go either way.
More interesting to me is Shaq. He’ll almost certainly go in as a Laker, but if he plays a role in a Celtics title, especially if it’s over the Lakers, do they retire his number in his lifetime?
Does the basketball HOF even do that?
The “go in as a member of a certain team” thing? I didn’t think it did.
If it does, I could see Ray going in as a SuperSonic to make a point, since he’s been pretty clear about not liking the way the franchise was taken away from Seattle. And he did spend most of his prime there.
I do think that retiring as the all-time leader in 3 pointers made (as he presumably will) along with 9 all-star games, at least one championship, an Olympic gold medal, and a great reputation (which matters more than it should) make him a lock. And I think Pierce is a lock too… the two of them are below Shaq and KG, but still locks.
Agreed.
It is not really relevant to compare Pierce and Allen straight up in stats. They play totally different roles on the floor. Both have clearly been elite players at their respective positions for a long time.
Ray, in particular, is generally regarded as the prototype for a shooting guard. Yes there are a few other players during these last 10 years who have had bigger numbers from that position, but most all are either hybrid SG/PG (Wade) or SF/SG (Lebron). Ray, although he has put some time in at PG, is pretty much the perfect prototype for how to play the SG position. His skill at moving off the ball and the affect it has on defenses is hall of fame material right there. Because Ray has played for an extensive stretch for three different teams (Bucks, Sonics, Celtics), in different regions of the continent, and reached the playoffs with each team, his ‘national’ reputation is pretty strong. He is known and appreciated pretty widely.
Pierce has a bit more of a ‘local’ rep – his fame is bigger here in new england, for obvious reasons. And I think that a lot of us Celtic fans naturally question whether he is appreciated as much outside of our region. But his huge career numbers and credentials stick up for themselves. He has always been one of the most dangerous players starting at the top of the key with the ball in his hand. Fans of other teams have always hated and feared him. That in itself is cred.
As you say, Shaq & KG are locks. Ray and PP may be a hair behind them in rep, but both are still locks. Easy locks, imho.
I think PP makes it. Pretty easily, actually.
Rondo COULD, a couple of ways.
He plays a LONG time at a consistently high level and the C’s win a few championships behind his leadership, OR
He improves his jump shot and free throws and that makes him completely unstoppable for a few years. He becomes the BEST PG in the NBA for about 5 years. With that, it’s not as necessary that he play a lot of years and win multiple championships….
Paul is no lock.
I’m not convinced Paul is a lock, mostly because his best days were on weaker Celtic teams. That hurts a player’s stock, given that he wasn’t a champion until two other players came in. He was also never a league MVP, or all-defensively player of the year, or any of those credentials which can make a compelling argument to HOF voters.
I think his 2008 Playoff performance, where in basically his first opportunity in his career to prove on the biggest scale what he could do, he was widely considered the best player in the entire playoffs, that will go a long way to swaying some people.
But to say he’s a “lock” might be pushing it. The same argument could be made with Ray, but Ray will retire having made more 3-pts than any player in History, so it’s hard not to add him on that fact alone.
Pierce is almost certainly a lock.
He holds numerous records on the Celtics, which carries a lot of cache with the basketball community. Among others, having the 2nd highest scoring average among all Celtics to Mr. Larry Bird and third all time scoring behind only Mr. Bird and Mr. Havlicek.
Pierce was also a very prolific scorer prior to the addition of Ray & KG – he lead the NBA in points scored in 2002 and had a ridiculous streak of 30pt scoring games in 2006. He has made it to the All Star team 8 times.
Added on to the championship and finals MVP awards, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he gets in. Easy.
If PP isn't a lock
Then this whole HOF thing is a sham!!. Common guys, he’s a 1st ballot HOFamer, it’s really a no brainer.
I can see where the doubt is coming from
If Dominique Wilkins wasn’t 1st ballot or 1st try HOF which was mind boggling. Hilarious, the human highlight film, not a 1st ballot HOF, what makes PP any different just because he has one ring.
This group has to win at least one more in the next next two years (probably the last two years they will be together) before thinking about HOF starting lineup.
That said, KG (and Shaq) is the only lock IMO, at this point. Obviously no disrespect to Ray and Paul, but I’m really trying hard to be objective here. I think it is very likely they make it, but not a lock at this point.
?
Ray Allen is a lock and Paul Pierce might not be? Uhm…what? Paul Pierce has always been and still is a more complete and better basketball player. Throw in Pierce’s Finals MVP, and it’s more the other way around. Pierce is a lock, Allen would be closer to the bubble, however I believe they are both locks.
SCOTT
HOF voters look at the bling...
Figuratively speaking of course. “Bling” in the eyes of hall of fames goes for things like championships, League MVP awards, All-defensive player of the year, All-NBA first team, All-Defense first team, ROY honors, Finals MVP, or (and in my mind this is #1) ending their career as the top statistically in history.
Now Paul has a solid case no doubt, a Finals MVP, will have great numbers in a number of categories, and the fact that he started and finished with the Celtics, and has his name among so many HoF greats in Celtics team records, will go a long way to convincing some voters I’m sure.
Ray, although he doesn’t claim the “bling” will end his career having made more 3-pts than any player in the History of Basketball. Any player who ends a list at #1 in a major category like that to me, is pretty much a shoe in, no matter what. So I think you have to give the edge to Ray there is we’re taking odds.
KG is a lock, cause he’s got the “Bling” with the league MVP, and perennial All-NBA, All-defense, and DPOTY’s awards he racked up over the years.
Shaq is clearly a lock, not even a question.
I mean if you count Avery Bradley
We have 6 in total. :D
by beantownboy171 on Aug 15, 2010 10:58 PM EDT reply actions
Pierce is unquestionably a Hall of Famer
Don’t know that using the measure of whether Pierce was ever one of the top five players in the league has much or anything to do with determining a player’s credentials for the Hall of Fame.
Pierce has had great stats, but he is and usually has been throughout his career been more than his stats. Making plays at key moments and putting weak teams on his shoulders was his early trademark. His versatility along with shooting, passing and rebounding stats have been very impressive in the total way that he has contributed. His ability to accomplish through body and basketball IQ, and perform as well as or even more effectively than many other superstars with more athleticism than Pierce, leads some to mistakenly judge him as a lesser star. I have never agreed.
His play since KG and Ray has arrived has been even more well rounded once he was part of team that played defense. We realize now that Pierce is a very good defensive player, although he was judged harshly on that count, earlier, because of the offensive and rebounding burden he carried in his earlier years and the fact that it takes a whole team to play defense well, not one, two or three guys.
Maybe early in his career he was on a borderline track for Hall of Fame consideration, because he did not have great team success nor the chance to demonstrate his ability to perform at a very high level deep into the playoffs. That has all been accomplished, and I still think there’s a fair bit more to come from Paul. He is unquestionably a Hall of Famer.
by SteveZ from Edgemont on Aug 16, 2010 12:32 AM EDT reply actions
There's a big difference between this group and the 60's Celtics, though.
The 60’s C’s were all in their primes when they played together, and made the HOF based on their contributions while wearing the green.
Shaq, KG, and Ray saw their better years while playing for other teams BEFORE they got to Boston and a large part of their making the Hall will be based on what they did before they became Celtics. KG’s and Ray’s contributions to the Celtics will factor in, of course, since they each have won their only championship (so far) with this team. But they are different in this way from Paul Pierce (and Rondo, if stays in Boston and he makes it) and the 60’s Celtics.
With Shaq in that lineup, that is the who's who of starters.....
Gotta say that the 2006 team was pretty loaded, though pretty old. They had Shaq, Payton, Zo, Wade, Posey and ’Toine among others. Funny, but 4 of those 6 are current or former Celtics.
Will they all be voted into the HOF ... in the first trial?
KG mostly will get in the first year he is eligible.
I've always been afraid of saying Rondo might be a HoF one day
But as for Pierce, the guy outplayed James and Kobe when it was needed the most! 50 points for the win against Cleveland, then 40+ points for passing Cleveland again, and many times 30+ points in the finals against Lakers. Yes, Kobe does that each time, but he doesn’t have KG and Ray on his team who should be the one scoring a lot.
Irresponsible I stand...
Rondo's breaking Cousy records
All he has to do to make the HOF is stay healthy.
In order of lock - a - bility
Shaq – 100%
KG – 100%
Pierce – 95% – will end up the C’s all time scorer.
Allen – 90% – most career 3 pters?
Rondo – 50% – I posted 2 years ago that in 20 years he would get in.
So yes all 5 will be in someday. Let’s revisit this in 20 or so years. : )
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
I think Allen gets in easier than Pierce......
although I believe both of them will get in rather easy. I would say Allen is 100% even if he didn’t play another game.
Agreed.
Allen and Reggie Miller pretty much are 1-2 or 2-1 for being the premier shooters of this last 10-15 years. Allen also has a very strong national rep, having reached the playoffs with teams from 3 distinct parts of the country.
I think Allen is easily a 100% lock for the HoF.
But I also think Pierce is a 100% lock as well.
Folks shouldn’t get too hung up on which of these two “deserves it more”. It is a false dichotomy. They are different players who both deserve it.
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