Yup, Even More Shaq Analysis
by Jeff Clark on Aug 5, 2010 9:00 PM EDT
in Boston Celtics News & Links
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PrintAnd now for something completely different... more thoughts on Shaq.
Someday we'll get back to thinking about the Celtics as a whole, but for now Shaq is just too big (pun intended) of a story.
Zach Lowe wonders if Shaq can fit in on defense.
And as we all know, Shaq’s defense outside of one-on-one situations in the post (where he’s pretty solid, as Matt Moore points out) has been a punch line for years. His default defense when he’s involved with screen/rolls is to sag back into the paint while the ball-handler’s man scrambles over the pick and tries to catch up. Open mid-range jumpers are there for the taking, and while the C’s don’t really mind you taking mid-range jumpers, they don’t want those jumpers to be uncontested, and they don’t want you to have enough space to at least think about going toward the rim with a head of steam.
Chris Forsberg wonders if Shaq would be better off as a starter.
By starting the game alongside Garnett, you have your most favorable defensive pairing, where Shaq's inability to defend the pick-and-roll is somewhat negated by having the team's best defenders on the floor to help out. Conversely, this also allows you to lean on a second-team lineup that features Jermaine O'Neal and Davis as a tandem and avoids potentially cumbersome pairings with Shaq.
Peter May wonders what the big deal is all about.
He is probably a second-string center right now and might be a third-stringer when Kendrick Perkins returns. It is going to be an adjustment for him, no matter what he says in public. He has never been asked to play such a cameo (by his standards) or been paid accordingly. The fact that this day didn't come until he turned 38 speaks volumes about his appeal and the NBA.
I wonder if we can stretch this news cycle all the way through the end of August. (not likely, but we'll try)
Update: I like the way Nate Robinson summed it up today.
“It’s going to be fun,” said Robinson. “Things are going to be bonkers, but in a good way. We’re just waiting to see how it is.
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Preseason games to figure this out?
We’ve got plenty of time to figure out who’s who and what. I have full confidence in Doc…
the few, the proud, the boston celtics
by bleedgreen34 on Aug 5, 2010 9:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
…… , . – . – , _ , ……… http://www.traderwear.com We’ve got plenty of time to figure out who’s who and what. I have full confidence in Doc… the few, the proud, the boston celtics
by bleedgreen34 on
Aug 5, 2010 9:09 PM EDT
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To be effective Shaq should only be used sparingly
He should get as little playing time in the regular season. Run him out and exercise him just long enough to keep him from getting FAT but not too much that he faces significant risk of injury, especially after Perk comes back. He should only be brought out and used against legit centers and boys he can manhandle. Howard, Bynum, Oden, maybe a few other legit back to the basket centers are where the talent that Shaq has left will be most effective.
"Attitude reflect leadership, captain" - Big Jules
Our offense "RUNS" through Rondo
Unless Shaq undertakes an excellent off season basketball running and conditioning program, I believe Shaq is not the best fit for the first unit for the simple reason that our offense falls stagnant unless Rondo is pushing the tempo and running. JO can get up and down better than Shaq. I do feel he can be superior in specific situations though, and a great asset in the playoffs against other contenders.
Shaq might actually make it possible for us to score easier in half-court sets.
Which means it’s perfectly fine to not always run.
- Dirk van Boxtel, the wandering Celtic fan.
Twitter: @4Hoopz
Shaq is also good at _starting_ breaks
because he is a good defensive rebounder and passer.
The best overall mix for Shaq is to actually balance his lack of speed with more speed on the wings and to have at least a couple of shooters on the outside. The reason for the first is that, when the other team starts a break, you want fast wings who can get back on defense in front of the break, slowing it down for Shaq to get back and keep the opponent in their half-court set.
On offense, you also want good shooters on the perimeter who can draw two defenders out of the paint. That leaves three guys defending the paint against Shaq, the PF (BBD) and whomever ends up slashing from the perimeter (i.e. Quis). In that scenario, Shaq will beat his man at the post 80% of the time or else draw a double, in which case he dumps it to BBD or a slashing Quis, for the layup. The reason it works is because with the shooters creating space, there ends up being lots of room for the interior pass. If one of their defenders collapses into the paint, Shaq can pass out for the open 3.
For these reasons, I think the 5 man unit of Shaq + BBD + Quis + Wafer + Nate is an excellent set – very complementary on offense and defense. Substituting Harangody in against some teams gives you some additional offensive options because he can both shoot and go inside – though he decreases the defensive speed on the perimeter.
The problem with Cleveland is that they did a poor job of holding space since their best perimeter shooter and their best slasher were the same person (James). When he goes in to the paint without the ball, he brings one of the two wing defenders in with him, crowding the paint, which made it harder for Shaq to dump to him. Further, against the Celtics, interior passes are notoriously hard simply because KG is the greatest defender in the history of the game at disrupting passing lanes in the paint. So while centering the ball was not optimal with the CLE lineup already, it went to pieces against the Celtics. Once the ball was centered, Shaq was best off just posting and shooting himself – hence he was able to be personally productive at times even though as a whole, the Cavs ground to a halt.
As folks noted, they were often better on offense with Z at C and NOT always feeding the ball into the post and instead using high picks to setup Lebron going to the hoop with the ball. But that is more a statement about the nature of the way that team was made up overall and the coaching they had than it is about Shaq. And against the Celtic’s that stopped working because they are so good with their team defense at stopping dribble penetration. So those plays often turned into Lebron shooting from outside, which is exactly what the Celtics wanted.
I think that the Celtics – especially the way our second team looks – should be a much better fit for Shaq. And that will be against opposing team’s bench units.
by mmmmm on Aug 6, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it is amazing the coverage.
here is a guy that is lucky to be getting vet;s minimum in the NBA, He went from 20 million last year to 1.5, and yes, there is a reason. If a name like Shaq who can still sell jersey’s only is able to command 1.5…there is a reason and the league sees it. I think he is a fine pick up at the vet miniumum but just that.
he is so far from being a game changer it is hard to describe.
by lakersbluedevil on Aug 5, 2010 10:27 PM EDT reply actions
didn't
he score 24 against us in the playoffs a couple months ago? I think people are underrating him.
i dnt think rondo and shaq will be on da same floor together
maybe him and nate but nate dosent run as much as rondo does
Assuming Shaq is the #2 C, he'll be on the floor with Nate, Wafer & Quis, with BBD at PF
That’s a lot of speed at wing. That actually works – better for Shaq because on transitions, those guys are fast enough to stay ahead of breaks, giving Shaq time to get down on defense. And going the other way, Shaq grabs a lot of boards and is an excellent passer to start the break.
Shaq was still a 24% Defensive Rebounder last year – that is an elite number (best on Cleveland and better than anybody on the Celtics except Perk & KG).
The only real issue is for Doc to scheme around Shaq’s vulnerability to the pick & roll by fast PGs – but against other team’s bench players, that’s probably not as big a deal.
Shaq can dunk.
That’s how he fits into our offense.
Whenever I saw him post up in the Cleveland series last year, I was actually a little relieved… because Perk did such a good job defensively and I never felt Shaq was that dangerous on the block.
Shaq is a big body and will bring value, no doubt. But he isn’t going to be superman to this team offensively or defensively. The run for the title depends on how much they want it and how hard the whole team works.
which is great since Perk is on our team
aside from Howard, I’m not thinking of too many guys that can body him up even at his advanced age
I think some more dunks are in his future
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers" Henry V
definitely
Gasoft and bynum cannot body him up even if they are young
I'm with you md04
Were to old and we can’t pass cavs or orlando. I love how the media talks like that. I’m from southern Cali and already getting ish from my friends who are faker fans. Are defense is gonna great with him and his brother, jermaine!
by CBleedsGreeN on Aug 5, 2010 10:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
There’s pros and cons to every player. Shaq is going to bring a very big body to the lineup, rebounding, some blocks, and length. Yea, he may be slow and can clog lanes for a potential Rondo or Pierce drive to the lane, but you’ve got to take the good with the bad. I’m sure Doc and company will try to work through and around these items as best as possible. For the money the guy signed to, this may be the biggest steal of the offseason. Nobody better was available dollar for dollar.
Kid, I own the police.
by PaulPierce34G on Aug 5, 2010 10:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
look at what he brings...
Shaq will play most of his minutes with Nate I’d imagine – wouldn’t expect a ton of overlap with Rondo as Jermaine O’neal’s floor spacing ability is more beneficial to Rondo’s assault on the paint.
What Shaq does bring is the ability to have a true low post option to help eliminate prolonged scoring slumps that our jumpshot happy team is prone to having.
His size and strength will give Boston a strong frontline vs our top competition so the rebounding battles will be greatly strengthened with both O’neal’s being plus rebounders on a per-minute basis.
The 2nd unit will have great scoring potential with Nate/Shaq/Davis/Wafer all being plus offensive players – its a good balance.
by BillfromBoston on Aug 5, 2010 11:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yeah - I think Shaq's post presence
will work best with the speed on the wings that Nate, Wafer and Quis should provide. That seems to me like a very complementary set.
Just curious (and mostly off topic)
but has anyone noticed Von Wafer’s contract is only guaranteed for $150,000 (per ShamSports.com)? I find that slightly interesting. He might compliment Shaq on a second unit but It’s kind of hard even to pencil him into hypotheticals when it looks like Danny has given himself some flexibility there. I suppose it could just be knucklehead insurance, but I wonder (i.e. superceding hypotheticals!) if it’s with an eye towards trades and upgrading the wing depth.
huh!
nope had not noticed that. your theory makes sense. to be honest I hope that is his plan, make portland nervous saying no we good, but ok if you really want him we will take him off your hands for erden/layfayette and a 2nd, them dump wafer losing only 150K
I can dream
Yea - i don't disagree - its probably knucklehead insurance, as you say.
i freely admit that my analysis above is based on Wafer’s skills. If he ends up being a knucklehead hothead, that part of it goes down the drain.
The hope is that he’s matured and will stay focused and buy in.
in addition to that
he can body up more on howard and bynum and other centers in the league
I love the guy Forsberg
who says Shaq should be a starter so the better defenders who are also starters can make up for his shortcomings on things like the pick and roll……hahahaha….great logic……that’s pathetic…..
Doc can hopefully figure out how to use him…..sort of how he finally figured out how to use Scal most effectively…..put him in street clothes….
This pontificating about Shaq’s defense, his remaining abilities, etc… I guess is good fodder for August but we ain’t gonna know till we get there ….and anybody who says they know best how to use Shaq and when to use and how many minutes etc…. has an over inflated ego that is merely sweltering in the hot August sun waiting on October like the rest of us
Is it Soup Yet?
Not enough Shaq yet?
Nice article on Shaq’s use of twitter and his influence on social media…
http://www.fastcompany.com/1676976/shaq-influence-project
Teamwork...
Defense...
Ubuntu...
The Boston Celtics
What an persuasive video! It shows Shaq couldn't close out three 3 point shots.
What good is a center if he can’t get from the paint out to the arc everytime? The Celtics need to get rid of Shaq.
Scary part.....
Is the arc is where our centers always ended up when the shot went up in Rivers’ pathetic defense pre-Thibodeau.
Hopefully Rivers learned something from Thibs or gives the defense to Frank.
by Finkelskyhook on Aug 6, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
That video shows the opponents in all three plays taking outside shots
isn’t that what you WANT your post defense to do? Deny the paint and force the opponent to take lower-percentage outside shots?
Just because they made those three shots in the video doesn’t mean anything. If they take 10 outside shots and make 3 you’ve done your job. If they take 10 interior shots (i.e. layups) and make 8 then you haven’t.
And why does the text claim that this vid shows Shaq’s weakness against the P&R when those plays were simply run down, high screen set-and-shoot and catch-and-shoot plays?
Not that I disagree that Shaq is weak against the P&R
its just that that’s not what the vid clip shows.
Shaq's strength is .... his strength
Shaq will mostly play against the 2nd string center of the opposing team. I don’t think any backup center in the league can body Shaq up
When and if Perks returns healthy, our 2nd unit will be made up of JO, SO, Davis, MD, Nate and Rudy. That’s a pretty decent bench to me.
No-one is worried about Shaq’s 1 on 1 defense. But he’s been pathetic in pick-and-roll situation, or when he has to move his feet against players driving to the basket.
Which means that
Doc will have to scheme to protect against that situation or Nate / Wafer / Quis / Bradley will have to fight through those screens to prevent the dribble penetration.
the big move of the summer was keeping ray. when ray stayed, the big 3 was not broken and danny had to keep the oldies for 2 more years,ergo, welcome shaq. it’s all about injuries now and pacing this group thru an arduous season. they have proven themselves very vincible and they range from brilliant to losing to the nets. the c’s mvp next year will be eddie lacerte with a lot of help from the medical staff. hold onto your shamrocks, folks, we’ll need health luck.
anyone notice in that "Nate on Shaq" article
how good Perkins looked at his Texas summer camp? The guy doesn’t even look like he just had surgery. It looks like he’s bouncing back quickly. Man, it must be good to be young.
One concern of mine.......
Is: I havent’ seen any ringng endorsements of Shaq’s signing by either KG, PP or RA. Perhaps this is just a needless worry on my part? (Rondo did have a few nice words as did Nate – BBD was silent, probably for a very obivous and good reason).
Pierce had a very positive twitter on it after getting the news.
Isn’t KG in China or something for one of his sponsors?
He and Shaq are good friends, I believe.
I doubt seriously that Danny would have made the move without getting PP, RA & KG all in.
Oh and BBD has long been known to have a major man-crush on Shaq
Shaq was BBD’s idol from way back and he literally followed his footsteps through Louisville.
As a youngster at a camp, BBD famously wrestled with Shaq and actually picked him up!
I doubt he has a problem with Shaq joining the team – they’ll likely be on the floor together a lot (which could seriously stress the parquet …).
5 M - Thanks
mmmmm: Thanks for the input, as I said before, I was a bit worried about the team climate due to no (known to me) input from the Big 3.
Hack-A-Shaq
The C’s often had trouble getting to the foul line last year. I figure Shaq for 15 to 20 minutes a game. Among others, one advantage he may offer is he is oftened fouled because of his poor free-throw shooting. This sounds like a negative, but even if he doesn’t make a free throw he can get the team over the limit. Then the ball can stay more in the hands of the good free-throw shooters, especially Ray.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn
Yes - and if JO is the starter and Shaq the bench C
then based on normal rotations, that means Shaq would be in early in the 4th (hopefully drawing fouls) and JO would actually be on the floor once teams are over the limit. JO shoots FTs at around a 75% clip.
Excellent points
Shaq is a bit player at this stage of his career. The key to his usefulness will be found in watching for certain match-ups, times and situations, and not overdoing his minutes — in other words, keep it positive and keep him fresh. This probably means playing him before the other team gets into the penalty and going to him on offense in the hope of getting low post scores and possibly even getting the other team in the penalty. He could even become the, "Big REVERSE Hack-a-Shaq."
"It's a team game." Please, feel free to factor that into your statistical analysis!
No question about it
Shaq HAS to be fouled down low or its a sure two points. No one can stop him without fouling.
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