30Q: Reserve Roles: Delonte West or Von Wafer?
by Greg Payne on Sep 9, 2010 7:49 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintA few weeks ago, under the assumption that Von Wafer would be backing up Ray Allen at the shooting guard spot this season, I wondered aloud if Avery Bradley had a chance to steal some minutes at the position.
Well, that was before the Celtics signed Delonte West. Now, a more accurate question (perhaps) is: Who should come off the bench first? Delonte West or Von Wafer?
The interesting thing is, we're slightly unsure about both players, but for different reasons. We know West can play, but we can't help but question his state of mind. Meanwhile, we assume Wafer can play, but we only really have one season to base that assumption off of.
Despite his personal issues, West is still the more proven player, in terms of quality NBA seasons put forth, particularly for playoff teams. The numbers favor West as well, as he boasts higher career averages than Wafer in points, rebounds, assists, free throw percentage, field goal percentage, and three-point field goal percentage. However, that comes back to Wafer producing just one quality season to this point in time. If we judge West's career numbers against Wafer's one and only respectable season (2008-2009), the numbers even out considerably. West also has the advantage of having played for Doc Rivers before, although not in the current system.
I'm very confident that public opinion will favor Delonte on this one, and understandably so. However, a few things do need to be taken into account.
First, training camp will be a great time to see whether or not Wafer's "breakout" season in 2009 was some sort of anomaly, or an accurate representation of his basketball potential.
Second, West's career 3.7 assists per game average suggest he's a better playmaker than Wafer (career 0.8 assist per game average; 1.1 assists in 2008-2009), but in terms of both guards attacking the hoop, Wafer attempted 2.4 shots at the rim per game in 2008-2009 - the exact same number as West attempted at the rim last season. So, I'd say Wafer has playmaking potential, but it's now a matter of whether or not that potential is realized.
Third, assuming neither player is cut during training camp, West will have to serve his 10-game suspension for pleading guilty to weapon's charges. Those first 10 games really could be Wafer's chance to garner real NBA minutes and prove to Doc and the team that he can be a valuable asset. It's definitely an opportunity for him to get a leg up on West. Doc has a habit of sticking with a bench player when he's consistently producing, and if Wafer can prove to be a valuable tool on offense and anything better than a liability on defense, he might just force Doc to wait on West, even once he is eligible to play in games.
Again, this really all comes back to us not really knowing what to expect out of Wafer. Delonte's game is much more familiar. We know we'll see a very aggressive style of play, gritty defense, a clutch shot here and there, and intelligent basketball decisions. We know Wafer can score - that's why Danny Ainge brought him here. But whether or not scoring alone will be enough for Wafer remains to be seen. His impact next season might very well come down to how he can impact the other areas of the game for the Celtics.
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Premature
I think this post is a little to soon…to be fair i rather wait to see which player fits best on the court chemistry wise with the team.We haven’t seen Von in over a year on the court and the last i saw Delonte he wasn’t at his best.Id rather give it at least a month into the season.
No way this is premature, Delonte is the more seasoned and skilled player.
…Delonte, all day -
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
Still think its Delonte at the 2 and Von Wafer at the 3
Von can play the 3 and if motivated can play some D. Once Daniels gets injured we will see Von at the 3. We actually have a true second unit now which you couldn’t say in the past.
Robinson
West
Wafer
Baby
Shaq
Regarding Wafer palying the 3...
he may have no choice but to play at the small forward position since he may find it hard to get minutes in the back court with the current guard rotation of RAY – RONDO – NATE and DELONTE.
I think Doc will still use Wafer at times for spot duty in the back court (to utilize his size) so he will get some minutes in the back court I assume.
But with the lack of depth at the back up small forward position Wafer may just get most of his minutes playing at that position during the year.
When they want shooters on the floor.
You will absolutely see Wafer out there at the 3. He’s a bit small at 6’5, but he’s capable of it. It will be spot minutes though, when Doc’s looking to spread the floor for Shaq and place a bunch of shooters around him, forcing teams to double on Shaq or let him go 1v1 in the post (not a good idea 80% of teams out there, eve at his age, he can get easy buckets against an post defender not named Kendrick Perkins or Dwight Howard.) In those situations, going with Nate, West, Wafer give you 3 very good 3-pt shooters on the floor, and will make teams have to think twice about who comes over to help on Shaq and how they rotate to cover.
So yes, I fully expect to see Wafer out there at the 3 when match ups favor it.
99%
When I voted for Delonte the poll results showed that 89% agreed with me while 10% preferred Von Wafer… am I to assume that the other 1% somehow figured out a way to vote for Antoine Walker?
Sorry, Rondofan, but my goal in life is not necessarily to agree with you.
I like Delonte very much, and am glad he is back in Boston. I think he can help this team, and vice versa. I know next to nothing about Wafer. I assume Doc will play them both and decide who is better in his scheme and who will get the time, and when, and where. (My goal, hopefully, is to agree with Doc… ;-) )
by thirstyboots18 on Sep 9, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Delone should get the nod from Doc 1st over Wafer no doubt...
Delone is until proven other wise (by Wafer) the more talented player a this time, so deserves to be ahead in the rotation.
But when Wafer does play , if he plays well and hustles etc…I am sure Doc will reward him by giving him additional playing minutes during the season….t
though it will be tough to find him serious minutes (barring injury) considering the C’s have a solid 4 man guard rotation of Rondo, Allen, West and Robinson.
The bigger question I see is who will the 1st guard be off the bench???
Do we sit Ray down and replace him with Nate 1st ?
or
Do we sit Rondo down 1st and replace him with West 1st?
guard substitutions
Given the nature of the guard lineup we have at this point, there is no way I think we sub Nate for Ray anymore. With a full camp, Doc will almost certainly try to focus Nate on the PG position.
Yes, Nate can shoot as well as a lot of SGs, but lengthwise, Wafer, West and Avery (and Daniels) all are much better defensive options at SG. And Nate has very good ball-handling skills and Doc has been crying for years about having a bench PG who he can trust to bring the ball up.
I just don’t see Doc wasting too much time with Nate at the 2 this year. Yes, he can play it. But the need is not there.
So who comes off will depend on who goes out first. If Rondo goes to the bench first, then Nate will be off the bench first. If Ray goes to the bench first, it will be whomever wins the coveted SG bench spot: Wafer or West.
This is the first time in a long time that Doc actually has a full and straight sub lineup so he doesn’t have to do a switch substitutions scheme (i.e. bring in someone for PG and move them to SG with the next sub or vice versa). Unless someone gets hurt – I expect Doc to do straight position subs across the board for the 1st to 2nd team transition and only deviate from that for specific matchup advantages and for when he needs to go to the 3rd-level bench.
I agree if Wafer cracks the guard rotation what you say may be true.....
but it all depends if Wafer can crack the back court rotation.
With a solid 4 guard rotation in Rondo – Ray – Nate and Delote we just may see more of Wafer at the the small forward position (though he may be used in the back court to help defend bigger guards at times) to help beef up the small forward position which the C’s lack depth in
If this is the case I think we will see alot of Nate at the shooting guard position as he is great coming off picks and creating his own offense.
Delonte though a decent shooter is as you say (elsewhere below) not a great shooter (especially compared to Nate) so he is best to play the point guard position.
The beauty of a Delone and Nate back court is that both players are basically combo guards who can both swap positions during games (depending on match ups etc.) since both can play both shooting and point guard positions to a decent extent.
This will give the C’s alot of flexibility and match up problems for opposing teams..
Add the fact Wafer will probably still perform spot duty in the back court (again especially to defend bigger guards ala Kobe etc.) then the flexibility for Doc and match up problems for opposing teams will only increase to the C’s benefit.
West also has the advantage of having played for Doc Rivers before, although not in the current system.
Yeah, opposed to the non-system he played for under Rivers when he was here before….
If Daniels proves too passive, as he sometimes does, then against the smaller 3s, Wafer could see some minutes there too (whereas Delonte’s just too small to play the 3).
I think Wafer has the tools to play defense, and if he doesn’t play it, he just won’t play. Doc didn’t even play Nate for a long while until he started playing defense. Just a hunch, but I think Wafer will turn out to be at least average on defense.
You’re right that West probably has the edge going into camp as backup 2, but Wafer has a chance to show Doc and Danny what he can do early on while West is out. Should be fun. Delonte is no slouch athletically, but Wafer appears the more explosive player. I can’t wait to watch this play out. This is going to be a fun season. Both players are classic low risk (financially), high reward players. Danny had a remarkable off-season.
doubleplusungoodthinker
+1
Doc may just use Wafer at the small forwward position instead of the back court at times.
If Wafers defense can flourish Doc may just see him as a semi replacement for T Allen to nst to defend against some of the quick athletic small forwards the C’s will face this year.
At 6’5" he has some decent length to do so and of course as you say the tools defensively.
I agree with this.
Wafer’s additional length is a significant advantage. If his head is on his shoulders and he follows through with a commitment to be a team player, I think he is a better overall option at the 2.
I do agree with folks that as of this writing, West is probably a more predictably reliable player. But part of that predictability is the fact that, overall, West is a mediocre 1/2.
Delonte is just an average PG – Nate is a better ball handler and overall a better option as backup PG. And West is completely mediocre as a shooting guard. Not bad. Not great. Wafer’s length and athleticism and one year of real minutes suggest that he could be above average for a bench SG and has the length to also potentially provide minutes at SF.
And its that last thing that kinda sells it. Roster wise, we are not likely to have very many minutes at PG, since Rondo and Nate are young enough to eat them all up – and maybe Bradley gets a few tidbits once in a blue moon. Ray & Pierce are the ones we will want to spell more – so the most potential bench minutes are at the 2 & the 3. Thus Wafer lines up better for need than West does.
That said – potential is nothing until it shows up on the court. Wafer has to prove during the pre-season and those first 10 games that he can play like he did 2 years ago. If Wafer sucks – and Doc will know based on practice play what he’s got in Delonte’ – I will not be surprised to see Wafer cut when Delonte’ comes back. But if he doesn’t suck, I also would not be surprised to see Delonte’ get cut.
I don’t see them keeping both for the long run unless someone gets hurt.
That definitely is the hottest roster spot competition to start this season off.
ahmm...disagree...
we won’t put small lineup on the floor…as visualize the 2009-2010 championship between celts and lakers, we were beaten by height factor… they have twin tower in gasol and bynum plus artest at 3 spot with height and weight advantage over pierce and kobe over r. allen advantage… so we must put body and height is might unto them….
what does that have to do with my post?
Where do I post anything counter to the idea of “we won’t put small lineup on the floor” ?
We are talking about bench guards going into the start of the regular season and you are talking about starting big men matchups from the finals?
We have more quality depth than we have in ages. I love it.
Our second unit should pummel other teams’ second units.
doubleplusungoodthinker
depends on the situation.
If Doc will find the way to use them correctly, this is as basic as 1 + 2 = 3. Von is a much polished scorer than Delonte, so use him if we need some more scoring off the bench. Delonte is a much better defender than Von, use him off the bench to defend the opponent.
Same goes for Quis/Von. Need more outside shooters in the 2nd unit, Von as the 3. Need a slasher off the bench Quis as the 3. Need defense in the 3, Quis, need offense, Von.
my 2 cents.
that's a pretty good 2 pennies
A fair and reasonable assessment of the situation, though I"m not sure we would keep both Wafer and West in the long run.
West may just be insurance to see in these early games whether Wafer is for real or not.
It's such a nice "problem" to have
Crazy deep this year. Lets hope it all works out together.
And BTW Matt Barnes is facing domestic violence charges…
Von Wafer
But only for his Athleticism over Delonte West, We will see how het gets on in Training Camp and also the Pre-season
How about Nate at 2 guard and Delonte at point?
I know this sounds a little crazy because nate is, well, a little short to play 2 guard, but I loved it when Delonte played back up point from time to time in cleveland. Also, that would allow nate to concentrate on what he likes most: scoring! He will feel less confined than in the point guard position, where he had to moderate his gime and pass the ball a lot. With delonte’s high basketball IQ at point and Nate’s explosiveness at 2 guard, the C’s have a solid backup backcourt… that is… IF Delonte has sorted his problems out…
We just may see that at times...
depending on opposing team match ups since both Delote and Nate are combo guards and can play both the point and shooting guard positions decently, they just go back and forth swapping postions with each other when on the court at the same time.
The key here is both players offer Doc alot of flexibility now in the backcourt.
add Ray, Rondo and Wafer for spot duty in the back court (against bigger guards) to the mix and the C’s have a very versatile and deep 4- 5 man guard rotation.
well regardless wafer is guna come off the bench 1st being that he's suspended
so lets see if wafer taked as much as advantage as possible
new one...better celtics line up....
starting 5 2nd stinger Reserves
J. O’neal S. O’neal D. West
K. Garnett G. Davis K. Perkins
P.Pierce L. Harangody
R. Allen V. Wafer
R. Rondo N. Robinson
this Celtics team with final line up above is a great team that could won banner 18. it has a complete arsenal both offense and defense…
@suizzlack...
what ya think? coud west be a center? use your brain cells anyway….
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