Jermaine O'Neal's Injuries Proving Troublesome; Surgery Likely
by Jay_King on Jan 13, 2011 12:30 PM EST
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PrintUPDATE: Jermaine O'Neal weighs surgery options
Boston Celtics coach Doc Rivers said that center Jermaine O'Neal underwent an MRI on Wednesday on his ailing left knee and, while he hadn't seen the results yet, he indicated that in-season surgery is a likely possibility as Boston looks to cure what's nagged at O'Neal his first three months with the team.
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Jermaine O'Neal. I can vaguely remember a time when that name brought me pleasure.
He had just signed with the Boston Celtics, and I thought to myself, "The C's just added a 14-point, 7-rebound a game center! And he plays defense! And Perk will return by the All-Star break! And no more Sheed!" I conveniently forgot about the Celtics-Heat playoff series, when O'Neal shot one fer twenty million (or something like that) and generally looked more washed up than a shored seashell. "He's a former All-Star," I told myself. "And he's still got something left in the tank. 14 and 7!"
Fast forward to January 13th, aka today. My thoughts about O'Neal -- how do I put this nicely? -- have changed. I find it difficult to blame O'Neal for some of his shortcomings, as he's battled injuries ever since landing in Boston. The latest injury-related setback? Swelling that has bothered O'Neal's knee for the past two or three weeks, and leaves him in pain every time he takes the court. So maybe O'Neal's not to blame for his underwhelming start. Maybe none of this is his fault, but the fault of a misbehaving body no longer built for the NBA season's daily grind. To the Celtics, who's at fault doesn't matter. What matters is only O'Neal's dwindling production, and the fact that his paper-mache body could fall apart at any time.
A question started nagging me about a month into the JO Experiment, and has become even more pressing in lieu of the recent injury news. My question echoes a sentiment Zach Lowe recently tweeted:
Will the Celtics get anything out of Jermaine O'Neal? And I don't mean in the near future, either. I mean ever. Will the Celtics ever get anything productive from Jermaine O'Neal? Or will his whole stint in Boston become entirely stained by injuries, the injuries that have limited O'Neal to two double-digit scoring games in his first three months as a Celtic?
At this point, they're fair questions to ask. The Celtics have already shut down O'Neal once, for a month and a half. He finally returned to the court, and instantly his knee swelled up. Doc Rivers is "concerned," and O'Neal admits the knee problems aren't likely to go away. "To be honest with you guys, there's going to be times when the knee is not going to react well," O'Neal told ESPN Boston less than a week ago. "I know that, the team knows that. I'm not trying to hide that from anybody."
As far back as November, O'Neal told ESPN Boston, "This is the most swelling I've had since I tore my meniscus three or four years ago." He continued, "I know the length of time it took to get back from [the meniscus] -- it took a while."
Perhaps the swelling has improved since November. Perhaps not. As O'Neal said in December, "This is who I am right now. This is what God has given me right now. You deal with it and move forward. With the brace, it’s going to help, but I can’t guarantee that the knee is not going to flare up."
The knee has flared up, and the Celtics don't seem to know what to do about it. When asked whether the team would shut down O'Neal for any extended period of time, Doc Rivers told the Boston Globe, "We’ve done that and we thought we were good, and it happened again." He added, "I don’t know. I don’t have any answers. I just know this has to be frustrating."
O'Neal's play has clearly been hindered by injuries throughout the season. When he's not sitting out games, he's battling through pain on the court or attempting to gain chemistry and rhythm lost by so much missed time. The Celtics ask O'Neal to play a different role than he's ever filled in his career, and the struggles are evident. With unimpeded time on the court, perhaps O'Neal's adjustment would prove less difficult. But with limited minutes and a lack of mobility, O'Neal's adjustment continues at a snail's pace.
In O'Neal's absence last night, Semih Erden received the backup center minutes. The Celtics are lucky they're deep enough to withstand so many early-season injuries, and Erden, when pressed into action, filled in nicely. The seven-footer had no idea he would play, and couldn't possibly have been prepared for 33 minutes of action. As Doc Rivers told ESPN Boston, "I think [Erden] thought his lungs were going to burst."
Yet Erden, who established career highs with 10 points and nine rebounds, provided more productive minutes than O'Neal has offered all season. He rebounded, drew fouls, contested shots, and even roared after one of two highlight-worthy dunks (the other highlight-worthy dunk was even better, and my accompanying scream likely woke up my entire neighborhood). More importantly, Erden provided much-needed energy while the Celtics slumbered through the first half. He changed the game's complexion.
Maybe it's not fair, to compare Erden's minutes against the lowly Sacramento Kings to anything O'Neal has done this season. Then again, maybe it's not fair to compare a raw Turkish rookie making the NBA minimum to a six-time NBA All-Star making $6 million per season. We expected a lot from Jermaine O'Neal, and, to this point, his signing hasn't paid many (any?) dividends.
Maybe Jermaine himself revealed how we should approach the rest of his time in Boston. He was talking about how he dealt with his return from injury, all the way back in December, but he might as well have been offering advice for us to deal with his next return.
"I didn’t expect anything," he said, "because when you expect too much, you'll just be disappointed."
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Might have helped
If he came to training camp in shape.
That extra weight can’t work wonders on bad knees.
He’ll be ready and able next season.
There's little substantiation to this.
There’s really no reports he did not come in good shape.
In fact I remember it being reported that he was working hard even pre-camp in workouts and pick up games, and some NBA beat writers were commenting it was the best shape they’ve seen him in, in a long time.
Don’t forget, the knee limits his ability to work out right now too, so he hasn’t been able to hit it as hard the past two months. So his shape now, isn’t indicative to much.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
He was out-of-shape
I don’t know what you’re remembering, but JO was noticeably out-of-shape to start training camp, probably 30lbs over the ‘ideal’ for someone with his knee injury history. There were no scribes commenting favorably on his weight or shape.
Not only was he out-of-shape, in training camp he suffered the kinds of injuries out-of-shape people suffer—pulled hammy, back spasms, and then he hurt his wrist on the kind of fall that happens 5-10 times a game.
JO was wasted money from the get-go, he was never worth the full MLE, and he’s the kind of player who doesn’t love the game, meaning he can’t play through pain AT ALL. And now he has mystery swelling in his knee—you can pretty much write off this season, something I’ve been saying since training camp when his bloatedness was first apparent.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Jan 13, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Look here:
http://www.celticstown.com/2010/08/31/jermaine-oneal-in-very-good-shape/
Game. Set. Match.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I wish I could declare victory that easy
Apparently the pictures, all of the time….What little that is…That he’s seen the court this season…are all optical illusions. Because he looks somewhere between 30 and 50lbs over his Indiana playing weight and probably 20-30lbs heavier than last season.
by Finkelskyhook on Jan 13, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Now he does.
I’d agree with you, but he also hasn’t been able to work out nearly as much because of the knee problems, so clearly that’s going to effect him.
My only point was saying he came into camp out of shape and that’s the cause for all the problems, is just a grossly irresponsible conclusion to make. There is no substantiation to any talk that he didn’t put in the time in the offseason, as the link mentions. In fact, the contrary was in fact, reported.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Take it with a grain of salt
It’s one thing to BE in shape, it’s another to STAY in shape.
It takes daily commitment to maintain one’s conditioning and weight. That’s the kind of commitment JO doesn’t have.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
It's not really such a mystery
He has a clear history of some serious knee issues, and 07 surgery. Given that… I’m not sure anymore about his toughness, or lack thereof. Well… I doubt that he’s extraordinarily tough, in the Kobe mode for example. But he might be about average, and simply facing a really bad knee.
Salmon&mashed
doesn’t like JO, don’t bother trying to convince him with silly things like facts.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
I was on here last week fighting this fight
and was told that he just has a “fragile ego”, which is why he doesn’t play through his knee pain.
now its apparent there is a real issue so more speculation flies about causes.
perhaps it’s because he’s had knee surgery before? As someone who has had ACL reconstructive surgery I can empathize with the man.
I can only imagine how sore my knee would be if I had 10+ years of pro-basketball wear+tear on them, and a 7ft frame.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Many things are impossible.
Including scar tissue forming from previous surgeries, arthritic spurs (as mentioned below), and who knows what else.
They’re obviously not saying exactly it is (or they don’t know.) But obviously, if he’s swelling bad enough that he doesn’t have full range of motion after only two weeks back, there’s obviously a problem here.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
let's see here...
rondo pulled a hammy this year
delonte broke his wrist in what looked to be a normal fall
shaq has missed games due to his back
apparently all these individuals showed up to camp out of shape.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
You forgot KG's calf.
KG – well known slacker …
Seriously.
They must not love the game, since they can’t play through the injuries… right?
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
hahaha
something tells me others don’t appreciate our sarcasm as much as we do.
@salmon – believe me man, I’m extremely frustrated by all of this as well, I had pretty big expectations for what JO could bring to the table this year and it doesn’t like we’ll get anything from him.
unless you’re a personal friend of his I just think all your speculation about the man is pretty absurd. as the above posts have shown the man has put in the work, doc says as much (“I feel bad because he’s worked so hard”), he was in good shape coming into camp, but the fact is he is damaged goods.
any speculation about his “love for the game” and his “ego” is just that speculation, because you and I have no idea what makes this guy tick. He said he came to Boston to win and because he admired the way this team played together, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Everything I'm saying...
Has already been said before by Indiana, Toronto, and Miami fans. JO is a well known softy, mentally and physically speaking. The routine we’ve seen with knick-knack injuries, mystery swelling and several trips to the doctor before finally having surgery…that scenario has played out multiple times the last 5 years. He’s missed 30% of his games since 2004, yet made nearly 100 million in that time. JO is what’s wrong with professional sports…he more than willing to take someone’s money and not put in the work necessary to justify his salary.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Sarcasm aside...
Hard work pays off—that’s Perk’s motto and very true.
Yet everything I see from JO is that he doesn’t work hard enough and while he talks a good game and seems likeable enough because he can talk so well there’s an underlying amount of laziness and complacency that typifies the overpaid underachieving athlete that everyone hates. That’s JO to a T.
Injuries happen, and if his injury situation was an isolated incident I’d be signing a different tune. But while injuries are a fact of life, there are ways to avoid injuries and heal from injuries—they involve working hard and eating right. JO doesn’t do that.
The difference between Perk and JO is startling. One guys worked for everything he had and attacked his rehab like a maniac. One guy worked very hard for awhile, then found success and 100 million dollar contracts and all of a sudden didn’t work as hard, struggled with injuries and basically mailed in the 2nd half of his career.
The difference between guys who work hard as a RULE and fulfill their potential versus the guys who sometimes work hard and often don’t fulfill their potential is simple: it’s called a love for the game. JO’s has never had that either.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
And everything every other player has said.
Seems to indicate he works pretty damn hard. Not one ill word has been spoken about him by a teammate. Ever.
So seriously man, drop this personal attack which is just borderline asinine. You speak as if you know him personally, and you don’t know a damn thing about him.
I get it, you don’t like him, that’s fine. But don’t attack his character because you have some vendetta and make vast assumptions based on mere speculation.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I don't know him personally either.
I have a hard time erasing from my mind watching O’Neal sprint across the court and coldcock a fan. Or his shouting racism when Stern wanted NBA players to dress professionally for games.
I also have a hard time looking at a guy who’s obviously out of shape and coming to the conclusion that he works pretty damn hard. As somebody who fights the battle of the bulge constantly….And has arthritic knees….I can tell you that there is a negative correlation between being overweight and degree of knee pain. As a professional athlete, I would expect O’Neal to have a committment to being in shape. That, visually, is obviously not the case.
Some of us predicted this when it was rumored that Danny was interested in O’Neal. It wasn’t difficult based on his inability (?) / unwillingness (?) to consistently get on the court after he signed his extension. I also predicted that we will see a different result next year…..Like we did last year in a contract year.
So while not knowing him personally, I still am comfortable questioning his committment to basketball.
by Finkelskyhook on Jan 13, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Really
You are comparing JO to Perk. I didn’t know that Perk was back playing. Besdies how do you know that Perks rehab is on schedule? Or that he won’t have swelling that forces him to sit out once he returns? Or the reports coming out aren’t just hype?
All your comments are sour grapes. Was JO in shape when he came to camp? Maybe or maybe not. I thought before he pulled his hammy he looked pretty good. I’ve never heard Doc or Danny complain, they knew the changes. However, I do know that there use to be a Celtics who always came to camp 25-30 lbs overweight and he had some health problems – back and achilles tendons. BTW, he was another slacker – Larry Bird!!!!
Why don’t you just get over it. This is a move that is not working out very well. So what? The Shaq signing and Erden have worked out fairly well. And with all the injuries, we are still in FIRST Place in the East. So some things are going right.
Completely missed the point
Which was the relative ATTITUDES of the players about their physical conditions, not their actual conditions, or what might or might not happen to one or the other. Sheesh.
Completely missed the point
which is that you have absolutely zero knowledge of what their true ATTITUDES are about their physical conditions.
Always the same false argument
You don’t KNOW what you’re talking about. As if that’s not perfectly obvious. As if this is not a forum for OPINIONS. Wake up, man.
Then try using the English language
to QUALIFY your opinions.
You are mistaken if you think EVERY post here is just opinions. Some are. Some are discussions of fact and statistics.
Its very simple. If you have an opinion, all you have to do is prefix it with “In my humble opinion ….” or “Gee guys, I could be wrong but I think that ….” or “It seems to me that …”.
It isn’t hard.
When you keep posting suppositions and tenuous, completely subjective and personal impressions as if they were inarguable facts, you look, well, foolish.
Saying something LOUDLY and assertively doesn’t make it true.
And stop assuming I’m asleep. Just because my body language is of someone with their eyes closed and slumped over the pillows on a couch doesn’t mean I’m asleep. You and your silly ‘body language’.
And you are doing exactly what you are trying to decry
Where are your “in my opinion”s… when you assert all you assert in this very post? You have SAID, often and loudly, that my ORIGINAL post (yeah, that one) was “full” of subjective impressions, suppositions, bla, bla, bla. But you have never so much as listed even ONE instance of that. Uh huh. Not ONE.
Don’t believe me? It’s right here, in black and white. Find ONE mention of ONE example which you have listed, to this point in time and in this thread, of an ACTUAL INSTANCE of my exaggerations/ suppositions/ impressions/ ad nauseum.
Doesn’t it bother you to be THIS hypocritical? Maybe not. Maybe not. I am confused though… still looking for an “m” in “narcissism.”
You know that's unfair
Salmon realizes he had surgery, and is commenting on his attitude with that in mind.
There is not much question anymore that the Celtics got screwed financially by the JO decision. Maybe he’s completely innocent in that. But if this has happened before, if this kind of thing has been going on for years…. then maybe he’s not.
Meanwhile, our team is still screwed, and he’s still walking away with the money, for what may well turn out to be almost nothing. At this point, I’m comfortable with putting the burden of proof on JO to show that he’s not what Salmon says he is.
We're far from screwed.
Thank you very much.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Veteran minimum for a guy who can't play and now likely needs surgery
Sounds like screwed to me
Right - Salmon's got all the 'cred' here.
Give me a break.
This is a silly challenge (“putting the burden of proof on JO to show”) that may be impossible for JO to ever meet. What if he does have a serious injury that costs him this and maybe even next year? Does that prove he is ‘soft’ as Salmon contends? Or maybe it is just a serious injury that JO has no control over?
If he comes back and plays, it won’t matter how good he DOES play – some folks will never like a player and never give due.
JO has been playing in the NBA for over a decade and has been a 6 time All-Star and people in the NBA know him. Doc & Danny knew him very, very well before signing him. They have years and years of expertise in their fields. Yet the contention here is that some anonymous dudes blogging on a web site know better.
That’s so stupid its hilarious.
Preach brotha. Amen.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Slight difference beyond the sarcasm.
Perk had a major knee injury and looks chisled.
O’Neal has a knee injury and looks about 50lbs overweight
It’s a matter of committment. His knee probably wouldn’t hurt nearly as much if he was close to his playing weight
by Finkelskyhook on Jan 13, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
50 lbs!?
do you realize how much weight that is?
someone already linked to an article that sites how good of shape JO appeared to be in over the summer.
perk is 25 y/o? JO is 33? that might have something to do with their difference in appearance as well.
also, I had the same surgery as perkins, and if you want to get back on your feet as quickly as possible it requires a ton of rehab in months 3-6 post surgery. Myself, I wanted to snowboard the winter after summer surgery, so I worked my tail off and was able to accomplish this. Where as perkins and my rehab was painful it was working towards feeling more healthy, where as J/O goes and works out his Knee is getting worse (swelling). there’s a HUGE difference in the paths their knees are taking on right now
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Well, he was and still is overweight
We can agree on that, right? I don’t care what the exact poundage is. Any unnecessary weight only makes his problem worse.
On the other hand, it appears now as if the Cs gave him all that time off (19 games) because they KNEW how severe his underlying problem is. So the length of his time off can’t be used against him anymore. He has real issues.
On the other hand, his pathetic, weakling statements about his lack of confidence were pretty nauseating. KG may be a “known slacker”, but you will never, EVER hear him talking like that. Not in this universe anyway. That kind of talk combined with the initial dearth of info on the severity of his condition made it pretty reasonable to take Salmon’s view of things.
After all, it’s perfectly possible for JO to have serious knee issues AND be a pathetic, spineless weasel. (NOT that I’m calling him that. This is merely a point of logic!)
I recall some pretty down-trodden quotations from JO
but they always sounded to me like a guy who was disappointed he couldn’t help the team, not necessarily a lack of confidence. Does anyone have a link to some of those?
I’m obviously on the “JO supporter” side of the scale, so that was probably just my interpretation.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
sarcasm missed
KG is not a “known slacker”. That was a joke. I should have used
the sarcasm font. My bad.
Ignoring that , I don’t think I could put in words how strongly I disagree with many of your assertions in the above. You make multiple statements as if they are fact when they are not. They are your subjective interpretations and suppositions.
a) Did you REALLY think I missed that?
Geeez. (Or… am I missing YOUR secondary sarcasm, about my missing your initial sarcasm?? O boy…. maybe! lol) M, you are a terrific basketball analyst. But I think you must know that your abilities in the areas of psychology, “body language”, and other assorted relatively intangible concepts is weak indeed. (To the point where you deny their existence.)
What “statements as if they are fact” are you talking about? Every statement made here is, obviously, OPINION. Do I really have to preface or end every sentence with “imo”? Sorry, but that’s ridiculous. No, really.
Wow.
I’m confused.
What the hell did any of that mean?
I don’t have a degree in wackoism from Berkeley or Wellesley so I need an interpreter.
lol
by Finkelskyhook on Jan 13, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
I sense an opportunity for real lunacy, and will therefore explain
Mmmmm (hereafter “m”) made a sarcastic/humorous reference to KG somewhere above, in the context of listing players who have been injured this season, by pointing out that KG was also injured. His point was that if all injured players are slackers (which was the strawman argument he and Willy were attacking), KG must be a slacker too. His saracastic reference to KG as “well-known slacker” was meant to indicate that even KG, the antithesis of a slacker, got injured.
I then, directly above, came along and, while making a point about KG’s toughness, said that “he may be a ‘known slacker’, but…” he would never say such-and-such, etc., etc. I used m’s prior “known slacker” reference in my SECOND-LEVEL sarcasm, admittedly hiding it pretty well… meaning: it read as if I were accepting KG as a slacker. I allowed myself that higher, obviously more nebulous level of sarcasm because, on the spur of the moment, it seemed funny to me. :)
However! M appreared to not recognize my 2nd-Level sarcasm, by indicating that his original KG remark “was a joke”, implying ‘Wow, you really believed that crap?’
I retorted that: Geez, did you REALLY think I missed the sarcasm you used when you called KG a “known slacker”? Really?? Did anyone? Why, OF COURSE I knew that! I was just USING it in my comment. (Indignation bristling.)
But it dawned on me as I was typing that retort that — gee, maybe M was being sarcastic when he accused me of not getting his ORIGINAL sarcasm (by writing “it was a joke”)! That would make his “it was a joke” statement a TERTIARY-LEVEL sarcasm, actually, in the bigger picture of the dialogue. You see, MY sarcastic use of HIS original sarcastic remark would then be the SECONDARY LEVEL of sarcasm in this tale. And of course, M’s original comment (that KG was “a known slacker”) was the PRIMARY LEVEL of sarcasm.
So in fact, we COULD have 3 levels of sarcasm going here, which I think must be considered exceedingly esoteric. Uhh… to the point where NOBODY would get it.
As a side note: M’s Tertiary-Level Sarcasm (aka “Tertiary Sarcasm”) was tertiary in the larger picture of the dialogue. If one looks ONLY at HIS statements, “it was a joke” could be considered an instance of Secondary Sarcasm. In fact, it was that FOR HIM. This is interesting only because that is the only instance in this whole story where a sarcastic event could be categorized in EITHER of two different levels.
But nah… I THINK (but do not KNOW) that M’s reply (“it was a joke”) was NOT written sarcastically. That would mean that the levels ended at 2 — my use of his Primary Sarcasm, which use was an instance of Secondary Sarcasm…… and that’s where it ended.
But I’m not sure. The world is a crazy place. I have a headache. And….. ANYTHING’S POSSIBLLLLLE!!!
:)
??????????????????????????????????????
What?
Looks like a campaign speech
by Finkelskyhook on Jan 13, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
Seinfeld ran for YEARS, tho it was "about nothing"
Is a blog less than a television show? If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? Can a comment not be about nothing? Ouch
Thank you
(I hope you’re not being sarcastic :))
I have just learned more about sarcasm than I would ever like to know
Fantastic
you got Celtic'd
by mm mm toasty on Jan 14, 2011 12:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
my "abilities in the areas of psychology, "body language", and other assorted relatively intangible concepts is weak indeed"????
Oh gawd. That is about the funniest thing I have read in weeks.
No wait – Wes Welker’s ‘foot’ references at the podium this week were funnier. But this is clearly 2nd.
I couldn’t possibly respond to THAT well-founded, rigorously structured assertion.
DRJ1, you is a hoot.
QED
But I’m sure you don’t recognize it. Tho you do not know your limitations, I do. Amazing, ain’t it?
Maybe Sheeds not such a bad idea...
I don’t actually see that happening but admitably JO doesn’t seem like he’ll be any better with time off so maybe we could use another big body
"It's my experience, no experience is a bad one."
18
that’s all that matters – whether it’s sheed or o’neal – they need size to compete with the lake show
SIZE MATTERS, as it were
.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
this must be the only pic of jermaine o'neal available to the nice folks at celticsblog -
- seems it’s the only one they ever use when talking about him -
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
It absolutely amazes me...
That people don’t remember how freaking GOD AWFUL he was for almost all of last year. Because of one, reasonably good performance in Game 7 which was honestly not all that good and only looked great in comparison to what we were used to.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I`ll take it a step further...
He sucked in the regular season AND the playoffs!
He averaged 6 points, 3 boards, shot 41%…and people act as though he was dominant in the playoffs!
Doc cut his playing time about 30% once the playoffs started.
He was on the floor less, so one saw less of his ineptitude.
His defense from the cavs series on was clutch, was not expecting much offensively, alwYs wishing he go to the post more. But we cant discount him, those playoff games alone validated his year to me, not just game 7.
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 14, 2011 12:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Most infuriating player to watch, ever.
And I do mean EVER!
I had an easier time watching Mikki Moore, because when Mikki Moore sucked at least you said “well, he’s Mikki Moore, he ALWAYS sucks.”
But no, Rasheed, every now and then, like he knew what he was doing, like he was just teasing you with it in a “Ya, I know I’m really freaking good but I just don’t give a crap.” Would take the ball in the post, and deftly make one step, shoot over his defender and nail short jumper with ease in a way that looked so effortless you’d think he could do it everytime down the court and never miss.
Then the next play he’d lolly gag around the 3-pt line and launch a contested 3 that resonates with a loud CLANK off the back of the rim, followed by a loud CRASH as I tossed my remote at the TV… ugh.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
The numbers disagree with you.
Statistically was one of the best defensive big men in the NBA last year – and I am talking regular season, not the playoffs. And offensively, after mid Feb, when the rate at which he was asked to shoot 3s dropped in half, he was basically average. I grant completely that prior to that, his offensive problems were awful. His offensive numbers were largely dragged into the dirt by his way-below-career average 3PT shooting. But there was a reason that he was taking those shots – until we added Finley we did not have a 2nd 3pt shooter off the bench and so the offense we were running called for Sheed to play that role. If he had shot his career average 3PT% it would have been fine. Unfortunately, he sucked at that.
But overall, I disagree that he was ‘GOD AWFUL’. His defense was consistently good all year, with only a lapse while subbing for Garnett at starting PF where he didn’t always get favorable matchups.
If it amazes you that people have a different impression than you, maybe you should question your own impressions a bit.
Stats don't paint a picture...
Except for his shooting %s, which where pretty clear.
And we must have been watching different games, because I clearly remember a whole lot of screaming at the TV while Sheed was slow and out of position guarding picks, or rotating help weak side, or boxing out (when he actually traveled inside the 3Pt line that is) so, “one of the best defensive big men” … really? I must have been watching someone else then.
God. Awful.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
if you look at Sheed's various defensive stats last year
they were at or better than his career averages in almost every category. And this is a player who’s career was defined by defense.
His DRtg (pts per posession) was 4th best among players who logged 1500 minutes.
You don’t put up those numbers by being slow and out of position.
My +1 refers to Sizzlack's
“It absolutely amazes me…”
It is frustrating that J.O.
has had all these knee flare ups since the start of the season.
What would be nice to know what exactly the issue with his knee is.
I assume the medical staff must know, but is keeping mum as they do often with C’s injury’s.
Now If its a serious knee issue or injury then this is a big concern heading toward the playoffs as we need J.O. to add depth to our front line in case any other big breaks down…which is possible with the past health issues and age of our bigs.
But if its just simple arthritis which has been rumored…
( http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=5796803 )
then though it is not a fun condition to have it is treatable and a better health infliction to have then say having a structural injury to the knee etc. because I assume that J.O. could play through the condition, especially come playoff time.
Problem is, if it is arthritic.
There really is no “treatment” per say. Yes, there’s things that can be done to limit and deal with the pain, but it’s going to flare up from time to time, and there is nothing that can be done for it.
It’s going to affect him the rest of his life, never mind on a Basketball court.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
True arthritis will effect J.O the rest of his life....
I have it in my shoulders and its not a fun condtion to have.
But though arthritis is not curable it is treatable with anti inflammatory meds, ice and rest.
If his knee issue is arthritis (again we do not know for sure) I just assume it would give him a better chance to play especially come playoff time then if compared lets say his knee had a more serious structural issue or injury.
But again who knows what is the issue with his knee…we can only guess.
In an appearance on the Dale and Holley show on WEEI, Jermaine O'Neal said
“We had a meeting this morning to decide ‘what may or may not have to be done’ to fix this knee problem,” said O’neal, while adding that surgery was something they had talked about before and may now be considering.
It's too late for surgery
If they wanted to go that route, it should have been done in the off-season. No way he can have surgery, recover and be productive for this team this year.
It’s a shame—I deluded myself into believing that he was going to be healthy and productive.
by McHaleinthepost on Jan 13, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Depends on the operation.
Not all knee operations take 6months to a year.
But either way, yes, if he has surgery, call me skeptical he’ll be in any shape to help come playoff time.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Good thing Danny stocked up on bigs...
Remember when everyone thought the C’s had too many and there would be complaints about minutes? Now, they barely getting by. Ainge knew what he was doing.
JO might be at the stage of his career when he considers retiring. If he can’t play even limited minutes consistently what’s the point?
Agree
it sure was a good thing Ainge stocked up on bigs in the offseason.
But with J.O.’s knee a issue lingering Ainge still may not be done stocking up on bigs yet.
6.5 Million
Give it back JO!
And remember when this guy was going to be our STARTING center? lolz
+1
And I don’t think he’s gonna retire. He’s never get that money again. I’m sad what a waist of money.
Insurance
My assumption would be that NBA teams pay for insurance to cover the risk associated with guaranteed contracts.
Apparently, NBA teams are required to have insurance on their top 5-6 players.
They CAN have insurance on others as well, but that’s optional. Of course, they would have wanted it on JO given his history, but did they get it? Also note that Insurance only covers the team’s financial liabilities. It does nothing to affect the player’s impact on the cap, or on roster space.
It's pretty disgusting if you think about it
As much as I hated Sheed bricking 3s at least he could get ON the court (and play hard in game 7).
by SpecialKxm107 on Jan 13, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
He should switch contracts with Shaq
That would be slightly more justified
"It's my experience, no experience is a bad one."
Yeah agreed
Even if you just go by how many games you step on the court it’s entirely true.
by SpecialKxm107 on Jan 13, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Who knows
Maybe JO told the Celtics he would not come here unless he get the mid level money smh
by OsirusCeltics on Jan 13, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
We should just go small ball the rest of the year once KG, Perk and Delonte are back
And let all the bigs have 3 more months to rest lol (Just kidding of course -or am I?).
Theoretically it could be done:
Rondo, Paul, Ray, West, Nate, Quis, Cookie, Harangody, Bradley, play the 1-4 spots.
Then you rotate:
Davis, KG, Semih, Shaq, Glass Knees all at the Center position lol.
Yeah you’d lose a bunch of games but it’s all about health in the playoffs AM I RITE?! Hehe OK enough with the silly / sarcastic posts. It’s just how I deal with all these injuries.
If you hear hoof beats, it's probably horses, not zebras
….I.e., JO had surgery in 2007 to repair torn cartilage (meniscus) in his left knee. He’s been suffering intermittent knee problems ever since. While it would be nice to suppose his recent left knee problems are from just “simple arthritis”, it’s not exactly reasonable. Those hoof beats COULD be a herd of zebras; anything’s possible. But it’s probably not arthritis, but issues related to that 07 surgery and the remaining cartilage in his knee. (Assuming he has any.)
Danny knew JO was a gamble. Everybody on Earth knew that. So he got the team a whole bunch of other bigs too, with the goal of being able to easily withstand exactly what’s happening now. Of course, no team can easily deal with THREE key bigs being down at the same time. But KG and Perk are coming back soon.
We hope that KG will be ready to go 100% shortly after his return. If he doesn’t get to close to that, no number of JOs is gonna help this team.
Perk is the big unknown. So far, all reports have been positive. As somebody pointed out, this is his contract year, and that does tend to miraculously heal many wounds. Plus he’s lost weight, which can only help. And he’s been working out. And probably most important of all, the team has chosen to give Perk VERY ample time to get completely ready to return to the court (unlike their recent decision with Rondo, who hobbled around in his first couple of games back). So there’s reason to hope that Perk could get to near his 100% in fairly short order.
If both KG and Perk are healthy, JO’s absence — which is getting more and more likely every day — will hardly matter at all.
On a positive note
Perk was interviewed on the sports hub this morning and sais he’s 2-3 weeks away from returning
"It's my experience, no experience is a bad one."
While I agree for the most part
I still have concern with Shaq and what he is going to bring to the table come playoff time. Right now he looks like a 50-100-year-old man. Also, and I have repeatedly posted this, I do not think it is fair to expect Perk to be 100 percent until next season. He has not played a game of basketball in 7 months. I also don’t know if Big Baby is a “big” anymore. All of that said, I know that they don’t have many options, but another big guy who can actually get on the court and play would be good.
If they could get another serviceable big
…there’s no question that would be a good thing. [The point of disagreement is over whether that guy should be Sheed. I am dead set against that idea. I think/hope that Doc and Danny see all the reasons why the team should keep Sheed at arm’s length. But who knows. Interestingly, the fan base appears to be split 50-50 on this one. (Which I suppose could be construed as a red flag regarding Sheed’s “serviceability.”)]
By your same logic, you could say the "hoof beats" are more likely arthritis, than anything else.
The symptoms actually fix, I don’t think saying it’s probably an arthritic symptom is making “zebras from hoof beats” but more the logical choice.
But there’s nothing to substantiate surgery related complications from 3 years ago anymore than an arthritic condition. Either is possible, of course.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
If this were a vacuum, your logic would be correct
But we have a history on JO, and given that history, this logic is 180 degrees backwards.
Actually given the history, I'd argue the reverse.
Arthritic conditions tend to develop in athletes over time, and lack an ability to clearly define cause. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn’t. There is little structurally wrong that can be identified usually in an MRI (i.e. no clear tears, etc…) and it “simply” is just the joints swelling, sometimes without even testing it. People who suffer from arthritis can some days run a marathon and suffer no side effects; but then other days can barely get out of bed even when they did nothing at all. There’s little evidence we can point to that would really say, one way or the other, what the cause of the swelling is right now. Which, to me, says arthritis is a real possibility.
I would agree with you that, given some recent statements that seem to mention surgery being an option, arthritis seems less likely. I’m not quite sure what they’d be operation on if they didn’t find anything structurally wrong.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Sorry
Just can’t agree that his history somehow does NOT point to serious cartilage problems, given that he had surgery for that just 3 years ago or so, and has had unending problems with that knee ever since. “Simple arthritis” here is exactly what a “zebra diagnosis” is meant to describe. And of course, as you noted, any talk of surgery makes it highly unlikely that this is just “simple arthritis”, which is normally treated quite effectively with medication. (Not that I know what “simple arthritis” is, or anything…..)
arthritis is arthritis is arthritis
We have to be careful to clarify what we mean when we use this term – there are a wide variety of arthritic conditions.
To the quetion of “what they’d be operati(ng) on” if it was ‘arthritis’ (as opposed to something structural) – that could be arthritic spurs that may need to be removed.
True.
But let’s hope not, removing spurs can be invasive, painful, and require long rehabs.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
If it is spurs...
it can be treated with steroid injections 1st before going with invasive surgery and the longer rehad that follows.
Do you guys know if J.O. has had any steroid injections recently to his knee?
I had addressed this point
…earlier in my fanpost about JO. Kinda figured someone would bring up the fact that ANY inflammation in a joint is technically “arthritis”. I assume, tho, that when people providing the rosiest alternative say it’s “just simple arthritis”, they’re talking about the most common, least problematic kinds, like osteoarthritis.
Anyway, it’s not that. Not “just” that, that’s for sure. It’s likely related to his past surgery, which has been problematic since it was done. But WHAT it is, specifically, is really IRRELEVANT. As you know, the only relevant fact is that he’s been out for most of the season so far, and his pattern to date looks very bad. It’s reasonable to assume now that he will not be of much use going forward. And so, the team must plan accordingly. Which I’m sure it is.
+1 Sizzlack
I think it may be arthritis only because I assume the C’s scanned J.O.’s knee when he had the last flare up.
Would they have sent him out again for a comeback attempt if he had a real structual issue with the knee???
I am not sure , but it would not make sense.
Thats why maybe it is simple arthritis that is causing J.O.’s knee flareups…but who knows for sure.
As m^5 mentioned...
“Simple arthritis” is a pretty general term.
That condition could bring a number of other problems, like spurs.
It’s seems likely, given the surgery talk JO and Doc have mentioned today, that it’s not just a “simple” problem and there are some complications, that will require surgery, it’s just a matter of does it have to be done now, or can it wait till the off-season.
I think they thought they could wait, have tried treatment to maintain it, tried to rehab it, and it hasn’t worked. So there may be no other option now…
We should resign ourselves to the reality that there is a very real chance JO will not be healthy this season.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Agree
it just may be the case that J.O. will probably have to deal with these flareups the rest of the year.
What I would like to know is…
What is causing the flareups?
and
Can he play through the flareups come playoff time?
Because if J.O. could play then at least thats better news to some extent then compared to if he could not play come playoff time..
I wish we the C’s could give us some more info on J.O.’s health status.
But it doesn't really matter what it is.
The exact diagnosis is not important. What’s important that his pattern looks v bad, and indicates that he will likely not be contributing much going forward.
As to the argument of what it could be… I think we can all agree that it COULD be anything. So case closed. :)
Fair enough.
Can’t really disagree with that.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I recall making a comment or two that trivialized Jermaine's knee problems.
It was suggested by others that the problem was all in his head. I didn’t go quite that far, but I did question his toughness. I now recant all such nonsense, and make my apologies. If his knee is clearly swelling, then it’s something a lot more than imagined twinges of discomfort.
Don't have to apologize (it's nice that you did but)
His bank account will fix any boo-boos your words caused (too bad it doesn’t fix his knee tho lol)
by SpecialKxm107 on Jan 13, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
When one makes an apology, it isn’t merely to the person derided. It’s too the entire community engaged in the discourse. Nonsense can undermine the value of the general conversation.
I know what you meant in your apology good sir.
I’m sorry but my intention wasn’t to undermine your post or anything like that. I’m just trying to be silly and lighten the mood around here. That’s all.
by SpecialKxm107 on Jan 13, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
What Do you think is the best thing that can happen?
Shut him down until April togive enough time to recover to see is He can help in the playoff.
trade him.
Ask for the insurance to cover the money.
Someone buy him P90X
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I was in that party
I thought he would have been our starting center and let the Shaqtus be the one to eat the other teams 2nd string center since most starting centers he still gives fits to. Then when Perk was healthy, Perk would slowly get his minutes up an start agian for a month before the Playoffs. Either way NO ONE knew about Semih and he will take JO’s floor time. I wish he worked out. I wished he was half the player he was in Indiana or even 80% of the player of last season. Ming d – Terrible waste of talent
Jeffrey M Melhorn
JO is done
As Jay said in the original post seeing how terrible he was in the playoffs last season tempered any possible enthusiasm most would have when the C’s signed him. I don’t think teams were rushing to give him the full MLE other than Danny. I guess the hope was that the C’s training staff could work miracles with his knee but that hasn’t been the case. I think everyone realizes now that this signing was a huge mistake. It’s unlikely that his knee will suddenly get better if it didn’t improve after several weeks of rest and only moderate activity since then. The Celtics would have been better served getting a scrub like Eric Dampier and using the rest of the money for another wing player.
Now it’s either rolling the dice with Sheed or trying to pick up another veteran player who can add a few minutes in the playoffs. Something has to be done because the alternative is scary - Shaq who is losing his effectiveness with each passing game, Perk who will be returning from a major injury and Semih who tries hard but has hands of stone and can’t possibly be expected to be a major contributor. Doing nothing would force Doc to play Big Baby and KG more at center also which could be detrimental.
Thankfully it’s only January so there is still time for Doc and Danny to make a move…
Semih's "Hands of stone"
I think this is premature. Actually a lot of the scouting on him said the opposite, most have lauded his hands, saying they were excellent for a big man.
I don’t think the problem is with his touch, but with the way he is approaching the game right now, he’s just going to fast. He’s trying to make things happens to quickly, and the uncoordination comes as a result. Once he adjusts better to the speed of the NBA game, is able to slow down and let the game come to him, I think he’ll find great success.
It’s a very tough line to walk, you have to find the balance between playing in control and bringing the “energy” which is needed. No easy thing to learn.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Hopefully a solid backup someday...
Yeah maybe not hands of stone more like hands of jello. The ball does have a tendency to bounce off his hands quite often. In most games he drops passes or fumbles rebounds and shot attempts. Last night he fumbled a couple rebounds, couldn’t handle a couple passes and outright lost the ball in the air at least twice when going for shot attempts. I actually like Semih and think for a rookie he plays hard and does about as well as could be expected. However there is no way a Celtic team hoping to contend for a title would have him play anymore than a few minutes during a playoff run. Hopefully one day he can develop into a nice backup center though. It’s nice to see him play hard and actually fight through injuries, which some players are unable to do…
Well with Perk and Shaq healthy, he'll be third string.
And not counted on for more than a “few minutes a game” barring foul trouble.
So that wont be an issue, and that’s not even mentioning any possibility of JO getting healthy.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
"Doc also said that JO may need surgery.
He’s unsure how long he would be out if he has surgery on his left knee. #celtics.
http://twitter.com/SherrodbCSN
Though it's dangerous to make guarantees around here
I am willing to go out on a limb and say that if JO has surgery, he will not be playing this season. Aren’t i brave? lol
Before you chastise him too much...
Look at this off season and name me one person who is “mid level exception talent” that was signed for MLE money this past off season.
Injuries you can’t predict, but your out of your mind if you think there’s been a single signing on that range this year that’s been 100% worth MLE money.
Maybe Blake in LA… maybe.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I'll give you two:
We could have signed Dorrell Wright (3.5 mil this season) AND Shannon Brown (2 mil) for exactly the same amount we spent on JO.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
And neither player would have helped this team anyway.
Redundant players no better than the ones we have in the rotation right now.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
probably as soon as Delonte' comes back
as at that point our guard depth will be solid enough.
This will be good for Bradley – he needs some solid game minutes.
good
Interesting that they are not waiting for Delonte’ to get back, but this is a good thing.
They're platooning the backup PG anyway.
Not like Avery is seeing the court right now.
It’s been a rotating cast of ball handling duties between Nate/Daniels/Pierce/Ray.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
this is bad
I kno hes only 20 years old but come on now.. why didnt we send him earlier then this..its like doc gave him a chance and he blew it..I expected big things from this kid but our backcourt is stacked.. avery needs ALOT of work mostly on the offensive end.. to me his defense is amazing tho
I think it's an incredibly smart play.
They let him get a full training camp, and nearly half a season of practice with the vets. He’s learned a ton watching the old timers play, having Ray Allen in his ear on the bench, seeing how they go about their business and conduct themselves.
Now, with the grueling schedule and limited practice chances, he needs time to put what he’s learned into action, he needs the reps. Sending him now allows him the best of both worlds, a chance to learn from the best, then a chance to put that learning into action.
He’s only going to learn so much “observing” eventually he needs to step on the court and get some action, that’s what this move is about.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
thats true
ill probly watch some D league games see how hes playing
Umm.... because Rondo and Delonte' were hurt?
So we weren’t really very deep. Nate – Quis – Bradley at PG. It made sense to keep Bradley around for emergency depth.
Rondo is now recovered and Delonte’ should return soon. He’s about to be pushed to #5 on that totem pole.
What really is “bad” about sending him to the D-League now?
I think they would have kept him around anyway, no matter the injuries.
I mean, it’s not like he played a ton anyway.
But moot point either way, it was the right move for all the reasons I said above, or even if it was just injury insurance. Smart play.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
he barely got any minutes tho
even tho they were hurt he still didnt play squat doc was scared to put him in.. of course hes guna learn from the vets all of our young players have but tell me one person doc has sent to the D league n has came back a beast… what scares me the most is with doc and young players the rooks that dont play defense dont get any playtime but with avery thats all he has.. so what is the problem here?
SIGN SHEED!!!! HURRY
i was probly the first person to give up on jermaine but sumthing tells me to wait till playoffs
No thanks.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Caption:
Jermaine: So I’m thinking of getting the implants right in here, Doc.
Doc: …
Whomever said that white shouldn't be worn after Labor Day must not have had a Dan Boyle away jersey signed by the man himself. Otherwise, that rule would have never been enacted, and we could have rocked our Miami Vice ensemble mid-October in areas outside of our respective bedrooms.
Not that our stuffed animal collection ever minds-- those tea parties get crazy, especially when Snuggles puts two cubes of sugar in his Earl Grey. You should his tummy rub dance after a sugar buzz. It's electric.
by YeahTommyB4ZGermansGetThere on Jan 13, 2011 5:24 PM EST reply actions
JO's knees
A lot has been said about JO’s knees lately.
I wonder what kind of check they made prior to Ainge signing him. I’m sure he had all the necessary tests showing the extent of damage to his knee, and the possibilities during the season. It’s not as though the team went into this blindly, but knowingly took the risk, with the hope that he would be healthy come playoff time.
As to his current and recurring problems, noone has offered any substantiated facts as to the actual problem at this time, so all conversation is pure speculation.
If it is indeed a cartilage problem, or arthritic by nature, then it will indeed be a reoccurring situation, and we can only hope that it will not happen during the playoffs, when he’ll actually be needed.
From personal experience with bad knees, and having had cortisone shots on a number of occasions in both knees, I can say that the pain comes and goes, and it’s almost impossible to know when it will flare up, and for how long. A sudden wrong move, and the pain can last for a period of time, and be very intense for short periods at other times.
It must be very frustrating for a player of JO’s caliber, who is a former 6 time all star, when he can’t perform as he used to at one time, and it won’t help by knocking his character over his lack of performance.
Lygafe.
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
If anyone is to blame it is Danny Ainge
He signed him …just like he signed quite few bad players…it happens…you can’t blame JO for this as the buck stops at the top and that is Danny Ainge.
We wasted a full MLE and there isn’t a dang thing to be done about it. But I say play Erden as long as his shoulder can take it and hope like heck Shaq can produce higher than he is now and theat Perk can adjust quickly
Is it Soup Yet?
The problem with an MLE is that you’re not going to get a good MLE. Especially not this past off season. They offered MLE money to Shaq, he didn’t answer right away, so they went to the next veteran center on the market, JO. Later Shaq ultimately decided to play in Boston at a Vet min so he could chase a title and play the amount of minutes he can play.
Given what was on the market I’m having a hard time imagining Danny putting a better team together. The injuries suck and that’s outside anyone’s control for the most part. But I feel like he’s drafted well, and also that he’s made very shrewd moves with free agent signings in general. He’s not going to be able to trade a handful of old jock straps and some practice balls and players that aren’t important for a starting quality center. Yes okay, LA did that with Gasol, but there aren’t any bad teams with good centers with bad GMs left.
Sometimes glass glitters more than diamonds because it has more to prove.
We never offered Shaq the MLE
Nobody did.
There were plenty of players available for LESS than the full MLE, guys like Dorrell Wright (currently having a career year) who’s making 3.5 million this season, and a guy like Shannon Brown (also having a career year) who’s only making 2 million this season.
Throw in miscalculating the Tony Allen situation, and DA had a terrible offseason. If he hadn’t gotten lucky and gotten Shaq and Delonte for the minimum, this might have been one of the worst offseasons of any team in the league….
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't know Dorrrell Wright and Shannon Brown played the 5
Please explain how either of these players would help the Celtics.The Celts needed neither of these guys.
Agreed....
Plus, it’s pretty easy to spend the MLE when you get to do it in hindsight. At the time, we had a need at center, and Danny signed two of the best ones on the market (plus got two very good SGs — Delonte and Wafer — for minimum contracts).
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
The Celtics needed a center
So, the other option was probably Brad Miller for a contract at least as big as the three years and $15 million he got from Houston. Maybe Joel Anthony at four years and close to the full MLE might have been enough to pry him away from Miami if you wanted him.
During the off-season, Jermaine O’Neal seemed like the best center who would be willing to sign a two-year deal and fit into Ainge’s plan of minimizing salary commitment past 2012.
I wasn't crucifying Danny on this !!! I was saying......
that sometimes any GM, including Danny, sign bad players….In this case (regardless of who was or was not available) Danny apparently made a bad choice (just like Raef LaFrentz although he was not an MLE player) . So Danny is too blame and not JO. While I think JO is soft you can’t fake swelling.
I was not inferring Danny has NOT made some shrewd moves – he has! but in this case he rolled the limited dice and crapped out ….or at least is seems so at this point.
He quite a few failures and quite a few successes….nothing more and nothing less.
Peace
Is it Soup Yet?
Wasting the Full MLE...
We’ve done it for 3 years in a row. Imagine how good this team would have been had we hit on just one of those years. Pretty sad when you have 6 million for 3 straight years and can’t find one good player to give it to…
Summer of 2008: didn’t sign anyone to MLE
Summer of 2009: signed Sheed
Summer of 2010: signed JO.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
Says the guy who thinks Dorrell Wright and Shannon Brown were worth this years MLE.
Come on…
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I understand your point
But by this kind of logic one can put almost blame just the GM for almost everything. The entire JO drama is such a bummer.
by friedgreentomatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well JO did bring me some pleasure in a couple games
But that was when we were playing the heat in the playoffs last year
by friedgreentomatoes on Jan 13, 2011 6:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Shut him down
Sit JO for a few months. If he can contribute in the playoffs he can still make giving him the MLE worth it. No need to play him another minute until he’s as healthy as he’ll get.
by dpaps on Jan 13, 2011 7:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Yup...
If long term rest can help the condition I agree shut him down and bring him back in March prior to the playoffs…as that’s when we will need him the most.
Did Boston perform a physical before signing JO?
Or did Danny just turn a blind eye and hoped daily treatments would do the trick. I would think these knee issues would have cropped up during the SOP physical before signing.
They knew about them.
But it’s difficult to predict how things will develop, certainly at the time of the signing, I don’t think they thought his condition was as bad as it’s turned out to be. But they felt confident enough it could me managed with treatment, I’d assume.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Well... the JO story gets worse by the hour
Cs announced they did an MRI on him, and that surgery is being seriously considered. KG, Perk… we need ya, fellas. Come on home.
So -- can the Celtics win tomorrow night versus the Bobcats?
No JO, no KG, likely no Semih as he aggravated an earlier groin injury, and of course no Perk.
That means a front court of Shaq, Davis and Harangody (GULP)
It is unreal that 4 of the 7 big men of this team are hurt, and that 5 of the 15 players on the roster are hurt., They will likely have only 10 guys in uniform tomorrow.
I know it is still early in the season, but injury on top of injury on top of injury is starting to make me realize that this team is never going to be fully healthy this year, and despite the excellent record to date, they are going to have a difficult time going all the way because of this incredible bad luck.
My guess is they wait until after this game to send Bradley to Maine
If not, they may only have 9 players on the bench. Not good given that the Bobcats are playing really well right now.
The Bobcats
are 2-9 against the celtics during the garnett era, and the celtics have outscored them 99-87 points in the last four years; not to mention a season sweep last year. I don’t think anybody here needs to be worrying…
If nothing is worth dying for, then nothing is worth living for.
~Chuck Coleson
A big man rotation of Shaq, Davis and Harangody would worry the ultimate optimist
We probably will see a lot of small ball tomorrw night with Pierce at the 4 and Ray at the 3. Think it is the best chance to bring home a win.
My team is 29-8
I should be feeling a lot happier than I am. Damn injuries!
Yeah, but happiness is boring
We who haunt these corridors thrive on misery.
I can do without the misery -- LOL
I still love the team and actually am already thinking ahead to the rebuilding to see what Ainge does. I am also still excited about this year, but the injuries are killing them and me. I am taking my wife to the game tomorrow night. She is not a big fan so won’t realize how bad the front court is — LOL.
Time to go watch the two Florida teams lose — I hope
agree
The C’s championships are few and far in between. I want to enjoy this group before rebuilding. I’d really hate to see Lakers have more championships than C’s
I am excited about the future. I guess I worded it wrong
I am excited about this year too. I just can’t wait to see what Danny does when they start dismantling.
Almost 170 comments on what is probably the 20th JO injury post this season..
this is one dedicated fan base
Sheed is Not a Big
He is a rather tall 3 point shooter.
He gets more rebounds in 5 minutes than Big Baby gets in a game
Yes, he took tooo many threes, but he also rebounded when needed
Waste can be taken two ways (actually it has numerous connotations):
1. to squander:I think many folks on here when they use the word “wasted” have this definition in mind. I don’t think that Ainge did that. To squander implies carelessness at best and irresponsibility and recklessness at worst. Ainge took a chance and got the best FA big man available for the MLE. He took a risk and SO FAR, the risk hasn’t paid off. JO could have a minor scoping of his knee and be back by March. Who knows??
This brings us to the second meaning (and actually the first in most dictionaries) and the one that if I were to use the word waste in reference to the JO situation, I think best applies. That definition is “to employ uselessly or without adequate return.”
I agree with the second definition, but absolutely don’t agree with the first and what it implies. I don’t think that Ainge’s signing was careless, irresponsible or reckless. It was a calculated gamble, that if it paid off (and we still don’t know for sure that it won’t, even though it strongly looks that way) would have paid huge dividends for a relatively short price.
Its times like these... where theres a Need for Sheed
Add Sheed regardless, i don’t care who gets cut. That guy is too valuable to just look over
The positives are:
He would have a lesser role, and not be the only big man off the bench. With him and Shaq getting most of the minutes off the bench when Perk comes back, he’ll have less pressure for him to perform
Just imagine the center/power foward matchups we could have. Ugh smh. Perk and KG. Shaq and KG. Sheed and KG. Big Baby and Sheed. Big Baby and Perk. Perk at the 5, Sheed at the 4, KG at the 3, with Pierce and Ray playing both guard positions. The matchups would be crazy!!! Oh the possibilities…
I’m with adding Sheed to the roster
KG @ the three
that made me lol
If nothing is worth dying for, then nothing is worth living for.
~Chuck Coleson
You lost me when you said...
KG at the 3.
I’ve immediately wiped everything you wrote from my memory, because clearly it’s all insane.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Haha
I’m talking about if they play big lineups, that would be a huge advantage. I’m only talking about using this sparingly like for a few minutes per game. Its not like what I said was totally weird lol. I’m not sure if you remember but when KG was in the Timberwolves he sometimes played the small forward position, especially in the all star game. This to me would be good especially when we face big lineups. But just for a FEW MINUTES per game experimentally
by OsirusCeltics on Jan 14, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Well, ya...
But he was a hell of a lot quicker then.
Let’s just say… this aint gonna happen.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
buuy out jo and get some1 tht can rebound at pf, the n drop wafer, eventhough i like him and pik up sheeed
by 81bos on Jan 14, 2011 1:45 AM EST via mobile reply actions
For the love of god!
Someone find a dictionary, STAT!
…Just messing with you 81bos, although that was pretty hard to follow.
And no to Sheed. Hell no in fact.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Wow…what a mistake I made. I gave JO 20 games back before breaking down again. What a terrible signing by DA. The guy looked terrible in the playoffs against the C’s and yet Ainge felt he had to get the MLE. Plenty of people questioned it the day the signing happened..
You could have gone out and signed a bum like Dampier and got the same production.
Hind sight is 20/20.
They didn’t know the knee would be this bad. So it’s hard to judge.
You can talk all you want about that they “should have known” but the bottom line is, there are some really smart medical people working for the team that know a HELL of a lot more about this stuff than you and me. And they all said with treatment and maintenance, there was no reason to believe he wouldn’t be ok, and able to help the team. It hasn’t worked out that way, but such is life.
And plenty of people questioned Danny trading to grab Rondo with Phoenix’s pick too. Look how that one turned out. He’s done alright, and we have no reason not to trust his judgement, sometimes you just swing and miss, but ya still gotta step to the plate.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I think it was unexpected and he was not signed carelessly.
I really feel bad for JO. He still is quite young in terms of bb-could have several more years. The knee problem was probably not expected to re-occur. It must be horrible for him now.
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