Remember: Ainge Came Close to Blowing This Up
by Jay_King on Jan 26, 2011 12:30 PM EST
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PrintThe final seconds ticked off the clock, and Game Seven The Game That Must Not Be Named ended with a Celtics whimper. They'd been *this close* to winning another title, *this close* to shocking the world by chasing a ring from the Eastern Conference's fourth seed, *this close* to restoring the chinks in Kobe Bryant's armor. Instead, the Celtics returned to the visitor's locker room. There was no champagne awaiting them, no whooping or cheering, and no celebratory gear. Only tears. So it goes.
We all remember that. But we sometimes forget how close Danny Ainge came to ending the Big Three's run early. We sometimes forget how lucky we are to still watch the synergy created by Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce. At the trade deadline last season, Ainge thought about pulling the plug.
He called around the league. Offered Ray Allen (and his expiring contract) for a barrage of players. Amare Stoudemire. Michael Beasley. Andre Iguodala. Carlos Boozer. Monta Ellis. Even came close to completing a trade for Caron Butler, before Butler was traded to the Dallas Mavericks. Had any of the trades worked out, Ainge would have let the Big Three go. He saw the two-decade slippage that happened after the Larry Bird Era, and Ainge vowed to himself he would trade his stars if they ever needed to go.
As Ainge told Sports Illustrated's Ian Thomsen, Red Auerbach could have corralled some talented players had he decided to trade Larry Bird or Kevin McHale.
Ainge said the Pacers wanted to acquire Bird in 1988 for a package that included Chuck Person, Herb Williams and Steve Stipanovich. Boston also could have moved McHale to the Mavericks for Detlef Schrempf and Sam Perkins, according to Ainge.
"I'll never forget being at that Christmas party and we discussed them," he said of the offers Auerbach had received for Bird and McHale. "He told us all at that time he wasn't going to trade any of us, that he wanted us to finish our careers as Celtics. And a few months later, they traded me for Joe Kleine and Ed Pinckney."
Ainge said he understood Auerbach's logic in moving him for a couple of big men who could fill in for Bird and McHale as they aged.
"But you could get Detlef Schrempf and Sam Perkins in their early 20s for Kevin McHale on a downward-slide team that was not going to win a championship," said Ainge. "Stipanovich would be hurt and wouldn't play, but Chuck had a good career. Those guys were still young, and instead you were getting two or three more years of Larry, but you were only getting 75-80 percent of Larry. We didn't have a chance to win the championship in '88-89 because Larry wasn't playing -- he was in those ankle casts. I don't think anybody really believed we were a championship team during the 1988-89 season or after that. We were just hanging on."
Those '88-'89 Celtics were just hanging on, like a six-year old me after I fell off a skiing chair lift and somehow grabbed hold of the leg support. Or, like last year's Celtics.
Anybody who thought last year would end the way it did, with a history-defying run to the NBA Finals, must be the type of person who still thinks Gerald Green will become an NBA All-Star. Anybody who watched the '09-'10 Celtics fall apart midseason, and thought, "They're going to make a run at the NBA Finals this season, no doubt about it. Then, they're going to be title favorites again next year. And KG's glory will return, and Paul Pierce and Ray Allen won't look a day older, and Rajon Rondo will lead the league in assists" probably needed their temperature checked.
There were no signs of the playoff run that ultimately validated a miserable season, no signs the Big Three still had more life in them. So Ainge shopped his stars around, looking for a way to build his team a new window of opportunity.
He laughed and added, "If I'd had those kinds of offers for K.G. or Pierce or Ray last year (that Auerbach got for Bird and McHale), I might have done it, too, given the way things were going last season."
Ainge laughed, but I suspect he was serious. And who could have blamed him? Not me. I spent most of last season (when I wasn't crying about the latest miserable loss) wondering why the C's hadn't traded Ray Allen and gotten younger. The Big Three were all washed up. Allen couldn't hit the broad side of Big Baby's rump, KG and Pierce dragged their legs behind them, and Rondo was stuck playing alongside three players who looked like they would soon be bound to wheelchairs (for Pierce, it wouldn't be the first time). I don't know what was more depressing -- the final 54 games of last year's regular season, or the movie "My Sister's Keeper." (Or the fact that I actually watched "My Sister's Keeper.)
Fast forward. The Celtics now sit at 34-10, atop the Eastern Conference and trailing only San Antonio for the NBA's best mark. Perk returned last night (and looked a lot like the Perk of old), Delonte West's on his way back, and the Big Three all look years younger than last season.
I briefly imagine what the Celtics would look like with Iguodala, Boozer, Butler, or any of those other players mentioned in the trade talks. Then I just shake my head, forget all about it, and watch the '10-'11 Celtics make their own old legs look young.
Ainge always vowed he would break up the Big Three when it was time. For a while, he and I both thought that time had come. Whether Ainge realized it hadn't or simply broke his own vow, we'll never know. Whatever the case, what resulted from Ainge's failure to pull the trigger was, and is, a beautiful thing.
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I did think last year would end the way it did, and also thought Gerald would be an
all star .. . too funny.
Ainge Came Close to Blowing This Up
Ainge, might of regretted a move like that for the rest of his career. Last season’s playoff run the C’s nearly pulled off the shock of a life time. Defeating teams like the Cavs and Magic, and nearly beating the Lakers in game 7 of the NBA Finals. No disrespect to Iguodala, Boozer, Butler, but these guys will never be able to take their teams to the finals like the C’s big three did.
blowing it up....
I seem to recall Mannix or someone saying that Ainge was trying to get Butler and Boozer and would move Ray & Perk. Mannix said it would be a more expensive starting 5 but would lengthen the window. I don’t think Ainge ever really wanted to blow it up. I don’t believe he wants to be in lottery land ever again.
Yup. Now Caron is out for the season this year. DA made a good non-decision. But he’s less good at drafting players
You think so?
Hmm…
2004 1-Al Jefferson Part of KG trade. Starter in NBA.
2004 1-Delonte’ West Part of Ray Allen trade. Still playing in NBA. On Celtic Roster.
2004 1- Tony Allen With Celtics ‘till last year. Still playing in NBA
2004 2- Justin Reed Played 136 games in NBA through last year. Part of mult-player trade in 06. Currently a FA.
2005 1-Gerald Green Part of KG trade. Played 181 games in NBA through last year. Currently FA.
2005 2- Ryan Gomes Part of KG trade. Still playing in the NBA.
2005 2- Orien Greene Ugh. Bad pick.
2006 1-Randy Foye pick traded as part of KG trade. Still playing in the NBA.
2007 1- Jeff Green pick traded as part of Ray Allen trade. Starter in the NBA.
2007 2 -Gabe Pruitt Meh. Played in 62 NBA games. I think he’s in Israel now.
2008 1-J. R. Giddens Part of Nate Robinson trade. Not sure where he is now.
2008 2 – Semih Erden Um. Great pick. On Celtic Roster.
2009 2-Lester Hudson. Sigh. I liked Lester. Last I heard he’s playing in China. :-(
2010 1-Avery Bradley – On Celtic Roster but in D-League.
2010 2-Luke Harangody – On Celtic Roster.
Okay – here’s the key:
Bold == We got good value from the pick. Either directly with playing time or in what we traded the pick or player for.
Strike == Bad pick. Didn’t get much either directly or in trade.
Not marked == fairly neutral value (Reed) or too soon to tell (Bradley, ’Gody).
‘Just my opinion, but I look at that and I only see 3 bad picks and quite a few very, very good ones. If Gody and Bradley turn out ok – and I see no signs that they won’t – then that’s a pretty damn nice draft history.
All three of the ‘bad’ picks were all in the 2nd round. That’s a crap shoot any time. He also got Gomes, Erden & ’Gody out of the 2nd round.
The above doesn’t include ALL of Danny’s picks since it doesn’t include acquired picks like Bill Walker (who was part of the Nate trade).
Danny often (always?) seems to pick for value / BPA and not ‘need’. Thus so many of his picks were intended for their eventual trade value. This strategy netted us Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett and the 2008 NBA Title.
A few minor quibbles
1. I wouldn’t give Danny any sort of credit for the Jeff Green or Randy Foye picks.
2. You forgot the Rondo pick, which while technically a trade, was Danny’s selection all the way. Glen Davis, Leon Powe, and Bill Walker were all trades that were essentially draft picks, as well, and those worked out pretty well.
3. Giddens wasn’t a good pick, regardless of whether we could package him for Nate.
4. Gerald Green wasn’t a great pick, either, and I don’t think he was a big part of the KG deal (Danny should have gone with his first instinct, in Monta Ellis).
5. To me, late second rounders can almost never be considered “bad”, since there’s so little talent available. Greene and Hudson, believe it or not, probably exceeded expectations. Pruitt didn’t.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
1) But you have to give credit for what it says “pick traded for …..”
2) Yes, I was being lazy and only talked about what Danny did with Boston picks.
3) But we at least ended up getting value from his carcass …
4) Nevertheless, that’s the history. We can’t know whether the deal gets done without each and every part of it. So whatever Greene’s intrinsic worth was, his pick ultimately helped bring us KG.
John Hollinger???
John Hollinger, who is this guy? Every time I watch ESPN NBA I always see his name and rankings of NBA teams on the bottom ticker. Chris Forsberg, wrote an small piece about Hollinger shows no respect to the C’s when comes to rankings.
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4680003/print-those-playoff-tickets
his ranking are based entirely on math.
He used advanced statistics and formulas to calculate… stuff.
That’s about the best I can/care to explain it. Bottom line is his formulas cannot possibly comprehend the true strength of a team.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Bad math.
As far as I’m concerned Hollinger’s ‘statistical analysis’ historically is pretty poor and barely worthy of the name.
He usually overweights counting stats and especially offense.
He gives a bad rep to the many folks out there who do use the numbers correctly.
I wouldn't say his formula favors offense
It favors scoring margin, which is a function of offensive numbers and defensive numbers.
that falls under my 'counting stats' criticism
and overlooks pace and possession efficiency.
A team with a low pace will tend to have a lower scoring margin.
There are other factors that are also being ignored in his math such as HOW points are being scored. This is important because some types of scoring are far more reliable than others – especially in the playoffs when the pace all slows down. To be specific, go to www.hoopdata.com and look at shot location and see which teams are scoring in the post versus those who are scoring by flinging jump shots from 3pt land. And also look at who is keeping their opponents away from scoring at the rim.
It isn’t always the case, but by far, in general, teams that score at the rim and prevent others from doing so tend to be the teams that win championships. As Doc says, this is a make/miss league. The closer to the hoop that you take your shot, the higher percentage chance it goes in. Very simple. Very true.
My reference to his over-weighting of offensive numbers shows up in his PER formula and other ‘analysis’ that he has published.
Hollinger's rankings definitely don't show bias to any one team (intentionally)
His idea that stats alone, or at all for that matter, can determine how good a team really is, is faulty logic.
Stats are good in most cases in most all other aspects of life, not, in sports.
Stats are perfectly applicable to sports.
Bad stats are bad stats, whether applied to sports or anything.
Most commonly it isn’t the numbers that are the problem. It is the misuse of the numbers.
Nice read....
It’s a fine line to show loyalty to older players in the twilight of there careers and wanting to blow up a team up including those players to try and make a team younger and better.
It did not work for the best for the C’s to hold onto there aging big 3 players of Bird, Mchale and Parish in the late 80’s and early 90’s (which I was all for at the time and currently since I loved those players and wanted them to remain as Celtics), but hopefully holding on to the current version of the big 3 of Allen, Pierce and KG will work out this year and make Ainges decision to not break them up a wise move.
Oh how I remember that 88-89 team
Bird played 6 games, barely made the playoffs, got swept by the Pistons…..
There were a few good things. We beat the Lakers by 15 at home without Bird. Reggie Lewis emerged as a legitimate NBA player and future star. Injuries opened the door for Kevin Gamble (who turned out to be a good player for the early part of the 90’s). Brian Shaw was a solid rookie (why the heck did he decide to leave for Europe the next season?!?!?!).
Oh yeah, Lakers were demolished by the Pistons in the finals. I’m sure that was more heartbreaking.
Memories….
Memories - none that were too fond in those years.
The downward spiral really started with Len Bias, whose untimely death in ’86 [ the closest, I think, the Cs came to a number one draft choice – he was picked 2nd. ] led to the loss of a future [ projected ] franchise player.
That spiral continued with the emergence of Reggie Lewis, who was drafted in ’87 and became a star and future superstar, leading to his untimely death in ’93, after averaging better than 20 pts. a season for the previous two seasons.
Had those two players been able to live and make a career with the Cs, there’s no telling how the 90’s would have turned out.
As it is, we all know all too well how the 90s ended up- Very Badly.
Lygafe.
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
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International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
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very very true
I watched Bias play in high school ball. I truly believe that he had all the talent then that Lebron James has now. He was an amazing athlete.
If there really is a multi-verse, it would be cool to peak into and look at what happened in that other, parallel universe where those two young men did NOT meet such tragic fates.
But who knows – maybe in that path we don’t end up where we are now?
It is what it is. I intend to enjoy this year and whatever we get out of this current Celtics team.
Agree most of those memories after 87 were not pleasant ones...
Due to the death of Bias and then Lewis.
One can only imagine how a Celtic core in the late 80’s of and early 90’s :
Ainge, DJ., Parish, Mchale, Bird as starters and Bias, Lewis, Shaw and bigs like, Lohous Acres and Gilmore off the bench would of competed for championships.
Maybe MJ wont win 6 championships...
and maybe Bird would snatch a couple of rings being a “Miller” type role to Len and Reggie. Although we might not have gotten Peirce towards the end of the 90’s. Then again assuming Pitino was our coach, the franchise would be screwed by him.
Ainge is right and wrong...
RIGHT : Nobody seriously viewed the Celtics as championship contenders after 1988.
RIGHT : Red should have actively sought trades for Parish and McHale.
WRONG : Bird could NOT be traded! He was a legendary, transcendent athlete. It would be like trading Bill Russell in 1967. There are some things you simply cannot do.
Not to place Pierce with Bird
But, Pierce is a player, while not transcendent, can’t be traded. He was the first Celtic who was drafted by the team to win a title, and his numbers are at the top of Celtic history.
The result was, last years results dictated this years actions.
Huh?
How was Pierce the first Celtic drafted by the team to win a title? There were MANY before him.
Um... in the 90s?
Ya, I don’t get that either.
I mean… Bird was drafted by the Celtics so ya… there’s that.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Overall, a nice article, Jay, but ...
I have to take issue a bit with statements like the ones in this paragraph:
Anybody who thought last year would end the way it did, with a history-defying run to the NBA Finals, must be the type of person who still thinks Gerald Green will become an NBA All-Star. ….
The fact is, there were LOTS of us fans who felt all the way through the end last year that if the team was healthy they were capable of making a run at the championship. And I, for one don’t remember ever thinking Gerald Green was going to be an all-star. There were solid, factual reasons (both statistical and otherwise) for believing in the capabilities of the 09-10 team and a LOT of us fans new them. There were tons of articles and postings on this site to that affect so I am not retrofitting history here. Dig ’em up.
We weren’t just a handful of goofy fan-boys blind to the flaws of the team.
Yes, there were very valid reasons for many to have doubts and concerns. But you didn’t have to be a loon to be positive. You just had to look at the team differently and you could see it all along.
It is fair to suggest that maybe the normal fan did not have that attitude, but it wasn’t as rare as your prose implies. Judging by the virtual draw in the many bickering ‘pessimist vs optimist’ (also coined as ‘realist vs dreamers’) threads, I’d say the split was pretty close to 50/50.
Have an m&mmmmm on me- well said.
There was a very solid fan base who believed, and believed and believed in the Celtics, in spite of the post mid-season blues.
I, for one, never, ever lost faith wth our Cs, and continued to write about that as often as I could, and there were many others who had faith.
Optimism is like a ray of sunshine coming through dark, menacing clouds. We always looked for that ray of sunshine, and I feel sorry for those who aren’t able to do so.
Lygafe.
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
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International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
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Agreed
I agree that there were many fans out there who had some perspective and thought that the Celtics if healthy were capable of winning the championship if healthy enough. I commented here consistently to that effect last season. But the majority and loudest of bloggers here tended to have little perspective with knee jerk reactions to the last game or three. Much was based on the belief that Garnett was never going to return to form, operating with naive understanding of the time it takes players to fully recover from surgery, especially when his recovery was interrupted by another, far lesser, knee injury. But frankly these fans so affected by the short view were having their fears fed by so many in the media, columnists and TV analysts singing that tune.
As it turned out, the Celts focused on getting the key guys healthy and stronger for the playoffs, rather than their seed position. They proved they were very capable of winning the championship, and only lost as a consequence of Perk going down in game six. They played a far better brand of basketball than the Lakers in game seven, and likely win by double digits, except they couldn’t overcome the rebounding lost with Perk and wore down late in the game from the physical wear of the added minutes required of the other players without Perk.
Ainge is no fool and he saw this and I don’t think he ever came close to blowing up this team, but had to look into all his options and keep them open in case the negotiations with Ray Allen and PP did not fall into place. A blossoming Rondo, a maturing Perk and a stronger KG boded very well for this season. Just needed a strong second unit to allow Doc to manage the minutes of the starters and to fill in for Perk and augment the front line when he returns, as he just has, at less than 100%.
Danny did this, maybe with a little help from Shaq, and this deep team looks like it can be a major contender even with all the strong teams out there this year. They have been great to watch and their team play has been something to behold. The second unit when/if healthy should add to the team and our enjoyment in the last month or two of the season. But perspective again shouldn’t be lost in all this. We have to keep in mind that almost any team needs a little luck with health, or at least the lack of misfortune, to win a championship.
by SteveZ from Edgemont on Jan 26, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
agree whole heartedly - very well put.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
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International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
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http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
Why?
Why would you watch “My Sister’s Keeper?”
The only discouraging thing about this game to me was that Boston was without KG and Perk. Having those two guys back would make them so much stronger, that I am not sure we can win against them.
mmmmm - thank you...Jay?..... not so much on this one
I believed last year…. and hated those were screaming for Ray to be traded.
I kept using the phrase get out of my foxhole and surrender……or posting pictures of chicken little
There are always moments when one might think they are drinking too much kool-aid but faith/hope and years of devotion just makes you turn on the TV and cheering.
“Those people” (you I guess) screaming for trades of future Hall of Famers like Ray Allen who wasn’t in any ankle casts but was out there playing seemed to me to be people who were nervous nellies and trigger happy fools.
So I guess Jay we are even …last year you apparently questioned my basketball sanity…and last year I questioned your desire to “go the distance before surrending some of your troops”
…..now remember… don’t look for room in my foxhole later on this seson if it goes bad for even a few games, and in turn I won’t appear drunk at your doorstep looking for Gin Baker to celebrate with while green koolaid drips down on my Leon Powe shirt as I sing “How you like me now!!”.
Cheers….
Is it Soup Yet?
Ainge Was Willing to Break Up the Team
But didn’t get any trade offers that were good enough. He wanted a building-block all-star-level player back and I don’t think he could find a way to pull that off.
Don't forget who
the first starter of the ’86 championship team to be traded was…….Daniel Ainge.
by thereallargejames on Jan 26, 2011 3:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That was not long after he was told that the ' big three ' weren't going to be traded
I guess he thought that it included him at the time. It didn’t.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
I'm not sure how close Danny came to moving Ray...
There were a lot of rumors, but never anything that came close other than the rumored Butler / Jamison deal. I certainly don’t think that Danny would have moved Ray for Beasley (however that would have fit under the cap), and I’m skeptical about a lot of the other names.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Agree the
Butler & Jamison for Ray deal was probably the biggest Ray rumor and made the most sense.
For the record I was all for that trade last year as long as the C’s had a plan in the works to buy out Ray and resign him for the playoff run… just like the Cavs did When they traded big Z for Jamison.
I think that is the _only_ way that it made any sense.
Replacing Ray with Butler would have left our offense with a big gaping void from outside the arc. The result would be no floor spacing. No way we would have been able to compete in the playoffs without a buyout scheme to get him back.
Buyout was key to any trade last year, had we gotten Caron and Ray back a month later that would have provided some nice rest for PP and Ray thru the playoffs, alas it didnt happen, and I was glad it didnt
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 26, 2011 6:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Train has left the Station
The time to trade the big 3 for value is past. Im not saying that we would have gotten guaranteed excellent return value for them, but the truth is that their value will continue to diminish each year. I believe injuries will eventually keep us from winning número 18 this as it did last year and after this year our trading chips will not allow us to stay in the running as we have been since 2008. We have put all our marbles in an aging group with a very limited time producing return, and I see ourselves in the same status we were in the late 80.s After reading this site I didnt know the players that were offered for Bird and McHale back then; I wouldnt have pulled the trigger either for THOSE players, either, but not doing absolutely nothing brought us 20 years of irrevelancy. Thats where we are headed as I write this cause the train left the station for Mediocrity City after last season and I dont see it coming back unless we star rebuilding right now. Mark my words. Whether we can start now is another story but if we dont even try now to see IF we can get good value for the future , well, thats unexcusable.
Just enjoy this season. DA will take care of next season. He’s probably the best gm C’s have had in 20 years.
Agree...
Ainge may be the best front office player personnel man the C’s have had since Red Auerbach and Jan Volk.
He is no doubt better then the most recent Celtic front office men like Chris Wallace and Dave Gavitt.
I also agree lets just enjoy the extended window for a title quest Ainge has allowed Celtic nation to enjoy this and next year….before worrying about rebuilding the C’s.
Which the way Ainge has set up for all most of the contracts to expire in the next 2 years should put the C’s in good financial position to rebuild around Rondo, Perk, Baby (if he resigns) and possibly Erden and Luke.
"not doing absolutely nothing brought us 20 years of irrevelancy."
No. 100% disagree.
The unforseen, unpreventable and uncompensatable deaths of Bias and Lewis brought us those long years of irrelevancy.
If those two had lived, the Celtics would have been very, very relevant during that span.
Also, for a lot of those years.
They didn’t “Do nothing” they just did “stupid things.”
That’s what happens when Chris Wallace is your GM, or Rick Pitino is your coach. Takes a real bonehead to run Chauncey Billups out of town and think Walter McCarty is a starter…
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Oops sorry- mmmmm- didn't see your correcting dantenina
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
Ha!
Didnt mean for the double take, but I doubly mean it anyway.
Was the only response I could give to Dantenina’s panic button post
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 27, 2011 2:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Bias and Lewis- death of an era. learn your Celtic history.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
Well I was never a gerald green fan,nor do I need my temp checked
But I place several midseason bets with friends (dont know where to find a legit bookie or I would have been rich in 2007)
that the Celtics would make it to the finals, I lost most of it back to several double or nothing bets that they win.
Not saying the season wasnt hard, but I always had faith. Question them or their effort? Yes. tweak the roster? Yes. Blow it up?hell f-ing no.
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 26, 2011 6:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Detlef and Sam Perkins for McHale would have been a good trade, a real good trade at that point in Kevin’s career. glad Larry wasnt moved.
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 26, 2011 6:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I love the picture shown
The current Celtics Big 3 were really a great influence for me. A huge fan of those three. Im kinda young, and that 2008 team was the first championship team that I truly loved (’06 Heat is close). A great HS graduation present lol. When KG, Paul, and Ray were at that first press conference on July 2007, I already knew that they were gonna win the title. That team had a mythical aura about them. The instant cohesion and chemistry the Big 3 instantly had was unmatched by any I ever seen. All of them are one year apart in age and have become even closer with this championship.
I still can’t watch the 2008 finals without shedding a tear. I know that they can still contend for more titles this year and next year. They will have to lean on Rondo a little more, but the ability for them to do that is there
+1
I felt it in the press conference too.
And them taking just a preaseason to flatten out the lumps an entirely brand new team will have when they come together. It was and continues to be just beautiful.
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 27, 2011 3:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
One flaw in Danny's reasoning
The Celts of the late 80s mostly deflated over the next decade in a hlf due to other circumstances other than the fact that Bird and McHale weren’t traded including:
1. Several bad first round draft picks between 1989-1995. Check out this list if you can.
2. One bad GM decision after another during the samee time span culminating with the Dominique signing. (I really enjoyed rooting for Nique but this was a bad signing and showed that the C’s had no real organizational leadership.
3. The Pitino era: Again, I was huge Pitino fan, but his decision and this overall time period set the C’s back.
4. Oh yeah, finally, the deaths of Len Bias and Reggie Lewis didn’t help.
The C’s difficulties were steeped in other organizational issues and not based on Red’s refusal to make trades!
Always liked the human highlight film myself, but he did not have much to give to us. Was it around that time that the Scottie Pippen rumors happened?
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 27, 2011 3:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's really the point
The two decade long dry spell had much more to do with poor organizational leadership and experiencing one bad break or tragedy after another. Also, does anyone believe that either of the deals that Danny spoke of would have led Boston into a title run in the early 90s? I love Danny’s skills but he’s wrong about this one and I’m glad he decided to repeat history and not trade these guys.
Last thing...
For all the suffering that we went through between the 1992-2007 years, is there anyone who looks back on the last days of Bird and McHale and regrets them finishing their careers in Boston? I certainly don’t. Would have loved to have had a better 15 years between 92-07 but Bird’s a Celtic for life and that counts for something!
Both statements ring true to me, Roz
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 27, 2011 11:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
As several have noted, there were many here...
…who believed the Cs could go all the way last season, and posted MANY comments and articles saying exactly that. (If you want the links, I can get em for you… but you can take our word on this.) There were also many naysayers. And in fact, battles raged constantly here from January on between the camps. I wouldn’t say it was 50/50… but neither was it 90/10.
But the most curious thing about this JK article is the implication that it was hard to envision the Celtics making a serious run THIS year. Huh? That one doesn’t compute AT ALL. How could anyone think they WOULDN’T contend this year? With KG having more than a whole extra year to recover, with Perk back long before the playoffs, and with Pierce well over the nagging gremlins of last year…. how is THAT team not going to be a serious contender? Maybe I missed something… but I don’t get that one at all.
As for Ainge blowing it all up… I’m not sure how true that really was. To me, it sounds more like Danny listening to possibilities. He should ALWAYS listen… to everything. Someone wants to trade for Pierce and Garnett? Oh yeah? Sure… whatya got in mind? This does not mean he’s seriously (or even semi-seriously) considering that trade. He’s listening. Evaluating. That’s his job. How close Danny ACTUALLY came to ‘blowing it all up’ is probably unknown to anyone except Danny. And I’m not so sure even Danny knows. My gut feeling is that it was never close.
Not sure...
where you got the feeling I questioned how they’d compete this season.
As for how close it got, in the Herald link I linked to, it was reported that the Caron Butler deal was close to being completed.
Thanks for the link
I see now where the closeness of a deal comes from. Damn glad it didn’t happen!
I still have trouble believing that Danny was close. On the other hand, at the time, Ray was going through a prolonged and horrific slump… which, btw, ended when the trade deadline passed… so who knows.
(I got the notion about this year from the paragraph just under the jump.)
I gotta also say... that the 2010 ring was lost over TWO games, not one
People forget that the Cs had TWO shots at the championship: Games 6 and 7. And that they only COMPETED in Game 7. They hardly competed AT ALL in Game 6, losing it by 22 points. In my view, that was when the championship was lost. Yes, they were the better team. Yes they had a clean shot in Game 7 (minus Perk, so maybe not all that clean). But they had ANOTHER clean shot in Game 6, and I will NEVER understand — unless Doc explains it to me when we’re both retired in Boca someday — why they blew off Game 6 like they did. As the better team, they had every expectation of being able to take down 1 out of 2 games. But 1 out of 1? That’s always a crapshoot… as they found out.
But… that was a different team. Not the one we have now. (That’s the excuse I used for my return, anyway.) These guys… would never do that. Never, ever, ever! (…he said quizzically, hopefully.)
If we could have had Semih instead of the "Landlord"...
would that would be enough to tip the scales?
Always thought that was a funny nickname
… and that a much apter one would have been “Stone Hands” (Shelden). Clearly, Semih appears to be a massive improvement over that guy, in size, talent, guts, IQ, etc.
Talking now about Game 7: Many have opined that the Cs’ poor rebounding cost them that game. I think it was that, and a bunch of other things, improvement in ANY of which could have pushed them over the top. Like if Ray (and Paul too) hadn’t chosen that game to miss a GOD-AWFUL number of shots. Or if the refs hadn’t screwed up quite the way they did. Or even if KG had been all the way back at the time (he played ~38 minutes).
But the decimation of the Cs’ front line by Perk’s absence was probably the single biggest negative. Baby just couldn’t fill in (and shouldn’t be expected to). Sheed worked his butt off in that game, so the Cs just needed one more true big to get in there and help out. (Shelden didn’t play one second.)
So yeah. I think Semih in Game 7 = Cs win.
I still start laughing whenever I think of Sheldon
Whoever came out with the phrase to describe him as having hands like two dried paintbrushes earned a warm spot in the cockles of my heart.
Cockles and mussels, alive- alive-o.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
You can't underestimate the mental impact of having a major injury sideline a teammate can have.
I’m not excusing Game 6, but watching one of your brothers go down like that is a real shock to the system. It is extremely difficult to just put it out of your mind and go back to the game.
This is a guy who’s went to war with you for years, and you can’t help but think about him. Distractions like that can derail even the toughest of competitors.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
But in a FINALS game? To lose by 22?
Not to go down swinging, at least? (Like they did in 08 Game 4… the single greatest basketball game of all time.) I accept your argument and case… that it was prob a shock. But that only hides the original point a little. What I mean is: if they could let Perk’s loss affect them that much, to the point where they lost the will to fight for the championship in a Finals game… then THAT’S the problem I’m talking about, just layered over by one more set of circumstances. You gotta keep on fighting. Like when Pierce went down in 08, the famous wheelchair incident. The team pushed EVEN HARDER then. Most teams do that.
There was another reason they blew off that game. I hope one day to find out what it was.
But I won’t hold my breath. And if I never find out, that’s fine too (esp since I obviously won’t find out). It’s not important (also obvious). The only thing about that game that’s still important is that the Cs NOT do that again!
Well, think about it this way...
Maybe it wasn’t “losing the will to fight” but over motivation. You want to step up for your teammate, so you press too hard, over exert. Before you know it your tank is on empty and you the quicksand is creeping in. So you push harder, you make some more mistakes, and everything snowballs.
It happens in sports all the time, anyone who’s played any competitive sport (team or individual) ever, knows that feeling. It’s what so many would coin the term “momentum” for, but it goes so far beyond that simple phrase.
Seeing a teammate go down like that sends an emotional jolt into your system, there’s no question. You’d have to be inhuman for it not to. How you handle that will greatly impact your performance.
Distraction, motivation, depression, any of those things are possible. But to say they “had no fight” or talk like there was some grand conspiracy, like they called a time out and said “screw this game we quit” is just crazy man. Ya, they’re all professionals, but they’re still human.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Yeah, I like this POV better.
And about conspiracies… of course it’s POSSIBLE, esp where there were millions of $$ riding on just HAVING a 7th game. But it is hard to imagine what KIND of conspiracy, how it could have been organized, how they could hope to keep it under wraps, etc. (On the other hand, how do the refs expect to keep their nearly-constant shenanigans under wraps? Yet they still do what they do, every single day…..)
Bottom line: It doesn’t HAVE to be a conspiracy. Not at all. I really don’t know WHAT it was. Maybe your theory, maybe another. I just know they treated that game… kind of like they treated the recent Wizards game. Like that!! Like it didn’t #*!%%$%# matter! It STILL sets me off when I remember it. (I still have that game and #3 on my DVR. So I could always refer back to it for comparisons, etc., especially if something juicy ever comes out about those games….)
Though I do think your latest theory works a lot better, it still can’t explain the Wizards-game-like way they played. That was just nuts. Still is. Nuts. Like… nuts. Really. Nuts.
(And I would chalk it up to my well-known zaniness if not for the fact that several other people here have acknowledged the exact same sentiments regarding that game. We can’t all be totally off the wall. Uhh……… I think :)
Game 6---Celts suffered from "Post Traumatic Syndrome"
Agree 100% with Sizzlack.
Turn the situation around 180 degrees :
LA comes into Boston leading 3-2 in the series…Bynum or Odom destroys his knee six minutes into Game 6….Boston {already fighting for it`s life} sees this “gift” fall into their laps….LA would have gotten crushed by more than 22!
agree 100%.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
Guys...
My sentence: “Anybody who thought last year would end the way it did, with a history-defying run to the NBA Finals, must be the type of person who still thinks Gerald Green will become an NBA All-Star.” just meant that you’d have to be quite optimistic to think that.
Obviously, there were many who remained quite optimistic throughout the long period of rain. But did the Celtics show you anything to make you that optimistic? No. You were relying on blind faith. Nothing — and I mean nothing — about the 27-27 end to last season offered hope.
Thank you for all the feedback, good and bad. But I wasn’t trying to say there was nobody who kept faith. I was just trying to say you were far more optimistic than I am, if you still kept hope.
"blind faith"??
I call Shenanigans.
You apparently did not read closely these last several posts.
Go to your room and think of a good apology before you come back.
Seriously, Jay. It was not ‘blind faith’.
Lots of us presented solid statistical reasons all last year as to why we thought the team was going to be fine, so long as they were healthy. Many of those same reasons are the foundations of why the team is playing well right now. They were a league leader in per-possession defensive efficiency all year. They were a league leader in FG% all year. That’s the same formula. Its only better this year because the bench is better and KG is healthier and Rondo keeps improving and the team just plain is more & more experienced with each other. But when healthy last year it was the same guys executing the same strategy and similarly crushing folks – when healthy.
Your text – especially with this ‘clarification’ seems condescending and dismissive.
“But did the Celtics show you anything to make you that optimistic? No. You were relying on blind faith. Nothing — and I mean nothing — about the 27-27 end to last season offered hope.”
Maybe it was YOU who just failed to see the evidence that others were able to see that the 27-27 won-loss in the last half was largely a product of the injuries and not of their actual potential level of play. Our contention is that the team DID “show us”. If anyone was blind, maybe it was you.
Lol
And there I was, wondering if I should respond or wait for someone else. Lol. And ouch. (But…. well….. it was a slow-moving ball coming right down the middle, just asking to leave the stadium.)
Yeah, last season was always all about health. They had their flashes of brilliance, when healthy, and we saw that and knew. Not only were there a number of posters here that knew it, not only did we post hundreds of comments (literally) and quite a few articles about it, not only did that ongoing battle last just about the whole 2nd half of the season….. it was all ALSO proven absolutely true by events on the ground. But I must admit to one major mistake I personally made. From January on, I believed that if they were healthy, they’d get the ring. I was off by a few points/rebounds.
I’m not making that mistake again. And again, I’m predicting that if healthy, this team goes all the way this year. The only difference is that I’m even more convinced of that now than I was then.
don't feel bad for being 'off' by that handful of points
after all, in the end, they were NOT healthy. They were missing Perk.
Way to go guys- you tell 'em
There were more than enough diehard naysayers and doubters last year, and they’re usually the same ones who hop on the ’ break up the team ’ bandwagon, after every single time the team loses any time this year.
If you feel that way about the team, go find another team to whine about. We’re too busy being loyal fans to a truly great team, and are eager to see them in the playoffs- HEALTHY.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
Yeah.
This year, the whole world knows the Cs are great. It’s kinda obvious. So there aren’t many true pessimists here… just folks who don’t like losing any game, really.
Btw… there are actually TWO things that can beat this team in the playoffs. Health is one, of course. The other is the officiating.
But truth be told, I liked it better when the world thought the Cs were done, and we alone were keeping the faith. It may have been annoying while it was happening, but there was also something more…. dramatic….. and unforgettable….. about that, the way that season unfolded. It was the perfect comeback fable, where the legendary good guys fight with their last ounce of courage, dreaming the impossible dream, and persevering in the end. Only the end got screwed up. So now they MUST get this job done. It could be their last chance together… and I KNOW in my gut that they’re going to give it absolutely everything they’ve got.
Hey Jeff, what do you say to organizing a luxury box for a finals game for celticsbloggers?
Actually (and there are a lot of us anyway) make it 2 suites. Name one the Panic Room and one the Foxhole.
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 27, 2011 11:45 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'd even seriously consider flying in from here for that - 10 hour flight
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
just a reminder..
i think these trades that could of been in the late 80’s has to have a reminder with them.. the celtics had a young reggie lewis on that team. so if bird could have gotten healthy, they had a chance to do something in the playoffs. it would have been like the celtics trading pierce 2 years ago when kg got hurt. AND they were supposed to have len bias. if bias and lewis never died, then those trades wouldnt have mattered. but when they both did. i think every one looks back and says why didnt they? perkins and schrempf would have been nice. but i’m happy bird finished as a celtic.
i’m more upset that they traded joe johnson & chauncy billups half way thru there rookie season. it would have been nice watching billups, johnson, pierce, walker run the court together.
more mad that they drafted complete busts named jerome moiso, kedrick brown, montross, acie earl, gerald green, that they took foye ahead of rudy gay (they later got rondo in that draft, but instead of trading for telfair- draft gay and rondo to go with jefferson, perk, pierce)
Yeah Johnson and Billups leavng stunk. Still dont remember Johnson missing.
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 27, 2011 3:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Management stunk during those dark years, followed by the even darker Pitino years.
Ainge was the first breath of management fresh air since the end of the 80s.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix
http://lygaffen.blogspot.com/
http://community.webshots.com/user/lygafe
http://forums.internationalhockey.net/showthread.php?t=7448&page=2
International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ]
Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
http://www.eurohockey.net/news/story.html?id=20090408104226_herzliya_emerges_as_israeli_national_league_champions
The Spurs were the team I lost faith in last year
With good reason. Well deserving of consideration fo being blown up. And Look at em now!
Crow taste like chicken, only slightly gamier.
by Warrior Spirit on Jan 27, 2011 2:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Giddens recently fired in Spain for out of shape
J.R. Giddens was “playing” for the Power Electronics Valencia team of the spanish league. Some days ago was fired for beeing out of shape.
He posted in twitter pictures of him and what he was eating… quite silly
He said “didn’t know the rice fatten so much”
http://www.marca.com/2011/01/26/baloncesto/acb/1296034929.html (Spanish)
PD: Sorry for my english, as you can see, is not my language.
I believe in The Switch
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