Atlantic Division Best: Celtics or Knicks?
Not sure how much worth there is anymore in winning one's division other than some bragging rights and a slight edge in seeding. However, the question of who will be the best in the Atlantic is intriguing for the first time in years because the Celtics are in danger of falling back into the pack as much as the Knicks are threatening to rise up the ranks. Pundits and "experts" around the web seem torn on the old school vs. new kids on the block, so it should make for an entertaining first game of the season as well as something of a race throughout the year.
So right up front I'll state the obvious: that I'm completely and utterly unable to be objective in this matter. I'm biased in so many ways on this matchup that they are too numerous to list but here's a start. I prefer team play over individual stars, I prefer pass first point guards, I love offense but respect defense more, and when in doubt I pick the veteran team over the younger team based on experience. Oh yeah, and you may have noticed that I'm a Celtics fan and pretty much hate everything sports related in New York City.
On the other hand, I'm also all too aware of the shortcomings of my favorite team. Even with the most emerald shaded glasses I've watched this team come up short for one reason or another the last three years and I can see clearly the end of the road. I just don't know on how high a note we can finish on.
So with that too-long lead in, let us analyze.
Who's better built for the regular season? (in particular, this season)
The Knicks are younger and will spend plenty of nights simply outscoring other teams that are tired from back-to-backs. They will trick some teams into playing at their pace and letting down their guard (so to speak) on defense. The Knicks are built to win shoot-outs and Tyson Chandler gives them just enough defense in the middle to give them an extra edge.
On the other hand, Anthony has had just half a season with Amare and neither will have played with Chandler before now and it is anyone's guess who will be handling the point guard duties (Davis? Bibby? Melo?). Meanwhile, the Celtics fearsome foursome have been doing this for 4 years already and will hit the ground running.
My guess is that they will take an inverted path to the playoffs. The Knicks will start off slow and pick up steam down the stretch. The Celtics will likely ride high on a favorable homebound schedule in the first half before getting slowed up by injuries and road trips toward the end.
How about the Playoffs?
The Knicks were no match for the Celtics in last year's playoffs, so I'm not inclined to give them much more credit with Chandler swapped out for Chauncey Billups. Again, Tyson certainly helps, but you can't just plug in one defensive center and expect the defense to come for everyone else. It takes a system, it takes commitment up and down the roster, it takes personnel willing to defend, and it takes coaching. The Knicks have none of that and the Celtics have it in spades.
The only question is: Will the Celtics be able to generate enough offense? They will slow down the Knicks but won't stop them entirely. The points have to come from somewhere and while the Big 3 have it in them to have the occasional 30 point game, they aren't the consistent threats they used to be. They need help from Rondo and the bench and those aren't sure things these days either.
So it is a balance. The Knicks tip the scales on offense while the Celtics weigh down the defensive side. If the sides are equal enough, I'll still take defense any day.
Conclusion: The old guard stays top dog for one more year at least.
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Would you vote for them
I think the knicks will be better by the end of the year. Bigs are more important than guards and they are better at 3 4 and 5 we have a big advantage at the 1 and two and arent far behind on the other three but then it comes down to it I don’t think we can stop melo amare and chandler
by JuJuan some moore on Dec 22, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Knicks size and length with ...
that front court trio of Melo, Amare and Chandler makes them a tough team to deal with indeed..
But the C’s have some size and length to throw at the Knicks also.
At the 3 & 4 positions we have Pierce (with Quis & Sasha as his back ups) and KG (with Wilcox, Bass and JJ as his back ups) all of whom have some size and length to a certain degree to throw back at the Knicks from there given positions.
If J.O can stay healthy I think he could make the center position matchup with Chandler compettiive.
Also if Stiemsma can develop into a serviceable back up center (he looks very promising so far) and the C’s can acquire Joel Pryzibilla (which is rumored) throw in Wilcox who will see time at center, I think the C’s will have alot of muscle, size , length and a decent deep 4 man center rotation to throw at the Knicks.
Steam boat vs chandler?
Chandler would kill him i don’t know how our benchs stack up but they have us beat on starting 5
by JuJuan some moore on Dec 23, 2011 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Baron Davis
If Baron Davis is able to get over his injuries and contribute,
then the Knicks will be a force in the East come the playoffs.
Looking forward to the Christmas day game for now.
Right
Will brick plenty of 3s and get Rondo’d
"Celtics bring order and structure to a chaotic world"
Well, last year he shot a career high 41.4% from 3PT land
which, if he could maintain that, makes him very dangerous from the point.
But he only shot 29.6% from there the year before and his career 3PT% is just 32.1%.
He’s always been a steady card dealer, dishing out about 8 assists per game. That number could go up, playing with Carmelo and Amare.
But he’s not the best ‘running’ PG out there and he’s definitely not the best defensive PG in recent years. He’s not especially fast and doesn’t create a lot of steals. He actually used to be a pretty good defender, but his DEF (defensive plays per 36m) has gone steadily down over the last 4-5 years to about half of what it was. Opposing PGs shot .46% eFG% against him last year.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Baron
Is a non-factor, believe me. I have been watching lots of clippers basketball in soCal here.
but that's when he was looked on to be one of the stars of the team, no?
here, he’s the third option on the court, and hopefully he’ll look to pass first, and shoot second.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
Agreed
I don’t think Chandler fits a typical D’Antoni system, nor does Melo for that matter, and I don’t see the complimentary defensive pieces that are needed to alter this team’s defense on a grand scale. I also think, despite the Knicks’ potency on offense, they lack a system that optimizes the team’s overall offense. Really just a lot of iso and post up ball, although I read today they were studing Oregan’s offensive system.
I’d take the Celtics in 6 or 7 games.
by redbridge13 on Dec 22, 2011 4:40 PM EST via mobile reply actions
don't discount the back court D prescence
TD is a good defender, as is Landry, and the rook looks very active on that end too. plus we’ve got a ‘D coordinator’ so to speak in Mike Woodson, so for the first time in D’antoni’s tenure here, were actually teaching D.
Yes, I am a Giants fan. Now that we got that out of the way....
IMPEACH DOLAN!!!!
The Big Boy Cometh....Team Jacobs
Marines say Oorah; BBVer's say SUAMBP! say it with me - Suuaahmbp!!!!
I agree mostly with you, but...........
I like what I saw from Rondo, especially in the last preseason game. He looked for and hit some open jumpers. Any of the Knicks guards can’t handle him. The Knicks, while full of offense, are mostly a 1-on-1 type team with a lot of iso for Amare and Melo. I personally think the Celtics will surprise some teams with our new additions. And I am soooo happy that our # 9 is still in green!
Speaking of Injuries and Minutes...
..expect D’A to run Amare and his wobbly knees into the ground. Meanwhile, Chandler is going to be busy guarding the cup , because he is not going to have a lot of help in that dept.
PP/Quis checks Melo, KG/Bass checks Amare. Who checks Ray/ET. Defence wins playoffs. Celtics advance.
"Celtics bring order and structure to a chaotic world"
Way too many egos.
Chandler has thrived with PGs like Paul and Kidd. A shoot first…pass to the snitchster second, pass to Stoudemire third, and shoot fourth isn’t going to sit well with Chandler.
I doubt Chandler will defend as hard or as well covering for Davis, the snitchster, and Stoudemire while getting no touches.
Way too many egos and way too little defense.
.500 team.
As said before...
It hinges on Baron Davis. If Davis is injured for long periods of time, or doesn’t play up to his potential, the Knicks will be the poorer team by a wide margin. If Baron Davis plays like he does give a crap, they’ll be a lot closer, and will be peers.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
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I think this team will be a true test to how good D'Antoni is as a coach
Can he adjust his typical approach to a roster that’s strengths flow another direction.
I just read a fairly hyperbolic article from NY Post (I think) where it talks about Melo running the offense as a point forward too. I don’t buy it, as good and offensive player as Melo is he’s never been a point forward type.
I think if the Celtic starters stay healthy...
especially J.O. the C’s will have a good chance to win the Atlantic.
But the Knicks have improved themselves the past 2 years so they will no doubt have a shot at winning the Atlantic also.
I would not be surprised if we lose on Sunday, but the C's should still win the Division.
Unfortunately this first game sets up well in NY’s favor:
a) It is opening night.
b) It is in their garden.
c) Massive media hype over the Chandler addition and supposed ‘changing of the guard’ will have them brimming with confidence.
d) No Paul Pierce.
All these things kinda lead me to expect that the Knicks will be hyper-pumped and come out like a storm surge. They will play over their heads and if the C’s don’t stay poised they could fall behind quickly and even get blown out.
Paul Pierce is the perfect assassin for killing the enthusiasm of MSG crowds and it looks like we won’t have him. He also is our best match up against ’Melo.
I love Marquis and he is a very good perimeter defender, but he’s not big. I predict that NY will try to post up Melo on him all day. As much as I think Marquis is a better overall player, it may make sense for Doc to put Sasha out there a lot to try to just pound on ‘Melo. He’s bigger than Quis and may help slow Melo down. If Sasha fouls out, it’s not the end of the world. We can look elsewhere for our scoring. After all, Rondo and Ray should own their match ups by a significant margin. And with KG and JO both looking healthy at this point, it should be pointed out that both have historically played well against both Chandler and Amare. This will, of course, be the first time they’ve all played together in the same game. But that might be an advantage for KG & JO who have now played a lot more games together as teammates.
At any rate, there is a fair chance we lose this one game. But I don’t think it will mean anything in the long run. If healthy, I think this Celtics team is significantly better overall than the Knicks.
When healthy, JO & KG are a hell of a defensive big man tandem and our guards collectively are just lights out better in every way. I’ll give NY the edge in point production out of the 4 & the 3. But that’s about it.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Agree 100%
with your comment:
“It may make sense for Doc to put Sasha out there a lot to try to just pound on ‘Melo. He’s bigger than Quis and may help slow Melo down”
This is the perfect game for Sasha to utilize his length, size, muscle and 6 physical fouls against Melo .
The game will be physical and tough and this is one reason I liked the signing of Sasha, since the C’s lack physical players and Sasha is not intimated or shy to throw his weight around.
Sasha’s job should be to go out and try to bang Melo to disrupt him and knock him off his offensive game.
I just fear the refs will call chimpsy fouls on him and maybe send Sasha to the bench prematurely with foul trouble.
I think that even if Sasha gets 2 quick fouls, you keep bringing him back out there until he fouls out.
You want him to take Melo out of his post game early. You don’t need Sasha in there for his offense. So if he fouls out your aren’t too bad off, so long as it shrinks the game. Daniels can also play physical, burning fouls, but you pace things so that he can use HIS fouls only as needed at the end of the game, when you’d probably want Daniels in there for his overall game. With luck, you’ll have pissed Melo off and gotten in his head well before then. That’s worked as a tactic against him before. And late in the game, hopefully Melo is reverting to rainbow 3PT shots and in that game, Daniels is a great perimeter defender.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Hope it turns out for the best...
and Daniels & Sasha and there 12 fouls can be enough to get Melo off his games and at least contain him a bit.
Its game like this where Green absence and the loss of his length, size, athleticism and talent will be missed also.
I wonder if by chance Daniels and Sasha do get in foul trouble and both have to leave the game (which is possible) who Doc will turns to at the 3 position.
I wonder if he will go small and maybe play Ray at the position, to put the heat on Melo to guard him up and down the court or if he may even throw in J.J. for some spot duty who with his size, length, athleticism and defensive skills may be able to give Melo some trouble ?
Oh I agree....
Sasha may not be a great pure one on one defender like Tony Allen or a the greatest player to defend smaller, quicker, athletic 3’s, but against big, long, physical wing players like Lebron, Carmello, Kobe etc I think this where Sasha’s size, length, muscle, 6 fouls and physical style of play can come in handy defensively.
I think considering the C’s do not have alot of physical players Sasha brings a element of physicality and muscle onto the court that the C’s lack and can use.
Considering also the Knicks game will I assume be a very physical and tough game, I am glad we have a player like Sasha on our roster.
Rest the Big 4
who cares about the reg season……
Celtic Chat Handle: Bird
by David Henderson on Dec 22, 2011 7:14 PM EST reply actions
Atlantic Division Best: Celtics or Knicks?
The Celtics are the better team because they’ve been around longer and posses qualities that the Knicks are trying to build for this year and years to come. In 2008 and 2011, the Celtics had the best starting line-up in the NBA, but they had to prove it with play. Any team can look good on paper, but u have to showcase your work.
We get caught up in today’s media with sensationalizing certain teams and athletes. Too many blogs and sites give voice to people who don’t know much. The Celtics are proven and that Knicks have to prove.
Pundits and “experts” around the web seem torn on the old school vs. new kids on the block, so it should make for an entertaining first game of the season as well as something of a race throughout the year.
The Knicks are new on the block and the Celtics are old school. And in today’s media old school sometimes get’s pushed out of the conversation, so we as Celtics fans have to expect that. Even if the Knicks win the first game of the season it doesn’t say much about them or Boston.
Last season the Celtics beat Miami 3x, but Miami defeated the C’s in playoffs. Now granted the Celtic went into that series with out a healthy Shaq, no bench chemistry, no Perkins, Erden, Daniels and one-arm Rondo. At this stage w/ the C’s they’ll probably slide into the east as #3 or #4 because they’ll rest through the regular season.
How about the Playoffs?
The Knicks were no match for the Celtics in last year’s playoffs, so I’m not inclined to give them much more credit with Chandler swapped out for Chauncey Billups. Again, Tyson certainly helps, but you can’t just plug in one defensive center and expect the defense to come for everyone else. It takes a system, it takes commitment up and down the roster, it takes personnel willing to defend, and it takes coaching. The Knicks have none of that and the Celtics have it in spades.
The Knicks will probably have a descent regular season though I’m not crazy about their bench as constructed, but the Playoffs Celtics are one of the better if not the best playoff team when healthy and at full strength.
Regardless none this talk of who’s gonna win or win the NBA title means nothing until June. The two teams that are standing will have the last say. For now ignore the sports pundits on ESPN, SI, Yahoo because they get paid to make premature predictions.
Later, folks.
Back to Amare.
The Wise Men make have a lot to say about the C;s age and rationing minutes. But what about Amare? I recall reading that D’a ran him to the brink last season. NYs depth hasnt improved that much, so could be an issue. These things arent won on paper.
"Celtics bring order and structure to a chaotic world"
Chandler just got lucky last season..
because he was healthy throughout the playoffs.. but if know his history, I wouldn’t count on him completing the regular season..





































