No Panic Yet, But Reality Check Time
by Jeff Clark on Dec 29, 2011 10:19 PM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintCeltics fans are expressing a lot of emotions right now, mostly negative. An 0-3 start does that to a fanbase. I can't speak for every fan but then again, that is kind of my job description, so I will do the best I can to help you sort this out.
Somewhere between "We stink, time to blow it up!" and endless excuses and blind faith is a middle ground called rational reality. In my most humble opinion, this team is not yet a lottery bound loser. As a fan, I'll never fully lose hope that they can pull things together and once again become a contender for the title. After watching this team for the last few years I've learned to never fully count them out (especially after a mere 3 games). That said, I'm afraid that there's a really good chance that this team just isn't good enough to hang with the best in the league anymore.
I think that is why Danny Ainge was so willing (and eager if reports are accurate) to trade Rajon Rondo and Jermaine O'Neal. He is rightfully worried about this roster and doesn't think that we have enough weapons - especially when injuries happen. The Paul Pierce injury isn't just a minor setback that will be forgotten in a few weeks. It is the new reality in Boston. Maybe Pierce will heal up fine and play the rest of the season, but someone else is going to get hurt. It's just a matter of time.
Last year we were very, very lucky to have our best players on the court for most of the season because it seemed like a revolving door on the bench. This year the odds are stacked against us being so "lucky." Kevin Garnett looks like all those minutes over his long, long career may have just caught up with him. Will he get a second wind or will he crawl across the finish line (and I don't mean in a ferocious menacing way either)? Ray looks like he'll play till he's 50, but he's also a shooter and if anything happens to those legs, he's toast. Rondo's best when he's attacking the rim with reckless abandon, which is also when he's most vulnerable to injury. I haven't even talked about the bench which is kiddie pool shallow right now.
So we'll have to take it as a given that the phrase "when fully healthy" is a pipe dream. Especially when the games are coming fast and furious and the schedule is going to do nobody any favors.
On the flipside, there's at least some hope for us to hold onto. We won't play consecutive games away from home until late February. By that time we'll have a much better understanding of where we're at as a team when we hit the road. Pierce is going to heal up eventually. Also, Mickael Pietrus will help our defense and give us another shooter on the floor to help our team's spacing. Both of those guys in the lineup along with Marquis Daniels means Sasha Pavlovic will go from starter to the end of the bench where he belongs.
Brandon Bass is a very good pickup and a nice piece of the puzzle. Greg Stiemsma is a one trick pony, but that one trick is something that we've needed for a while. Chris Wilcox will be back soon, and he provides some needed hops. Finally, Keyon Dooling is unspectacular but competent as a backup point guard. These are all good things and not to be forgotten because of the goose egg in the win column.
There's still time for the draft picks to get used to the NBA and the Celtics system, but it concerns me that JaJuan Johnson is not getting time when we obviously have such a need for a big man. E'Twaun Moore hasn't seen much time yet, but he might steal some minutes from the very unimpressive Avery Bradley soon.
So what's the bottom line here? I don't know yet. Nobody really does because it has only been 3 games. That said, there's only 66 games in the season, so as the great Yogi Berra once said, "It gets late early around here." We'll have to figure things out soon or it will be time for plan D. I don't think D stands for "detonate" but I guess you never know. Some great teams get broken up, some fade away, and some just have the wheels come off all of a sudden. We'll know a lot more in a month or two.
This epic saga has an ending and it sure seems like we're reading the last few chapters. I hope we've got one last heroic fight to the finish left in this crew. I hope, but I don't know. And that's where we're at right now.
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Should point out
That even some of the young teams are struggling with back-to-backs. Many are just not in basketball shape yet and/or the team is yet to gel.
- JoeB
There’s a lot of sloppy basketball around the league it’s not just the Celtics. The Celtics unfortunately started the season on the road. Not making excuses, but having a full roster would help, at least Doc would know which players to use in rotations and positions played.
by C'sFanfrmNy on Dec 29, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
Dallas just lost.
So the world champions are also 0-3. But I guess they are ‘old’ like us.
Memphis is young and supposed to be good. They are 0-2.
On back-to-backs – all teams struggle with those in every season. Especially on the road. NBA basketball is cruel if your are even slightly tired and off.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
truth
Memphis too?! Wow it’s not just the old guard!
by kuekuatsheu on Dec 30, 2011 8:41 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Dallas lost the anchor of its defense and two key pieces in Stevenson and Barrea
Add to this the fact that so far, Odom does not seem to want to be there and you have a recipe for disaster. Plus, they have the added excuse of having a championship hangover. That said, I don’t think Dallas is going to be in the finals this year. Plus, they lost last night to probably the best team in the west and one of the best in the league.
No Panic Yet, But Reality Check Time
No time to panic yet it’s only 3 games. The Celtics need to consider options with JO. He’s just not cutting it. Also the defense needs to get better because it’s been horrific as of late.
Nice piece Jeff
All of us are frustrated right now, but with PP and Pietrus joining the team, I can only see the team getting better. I know we aren’t the dominant force we used to be, but this team is still going to be competitive right up until the end! I see us getting 45-48 wins(I can see Doc letting the Big Three miss 3-5 games for rest) and earning the 4th(possibly 3rd, depending on whether or not Chandler really changes the way NY plays D) in the East. Not so bad after an 0-3 start, huh?
I think anything more than 40 wins
is a long shot…
I don’t often agree with the pundits at ESPN, but Jalen Rose’s minute clip saying not to panic was spot on. Get into the playoffs healthy with a reasonable seed, and the celtics are still a tough team to beat 4 outta of 7 games.
I think right around 40 wins will be the 4 seed, that’s where I see and realistically hope for us to be.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Agree
I do see us winning 40-45 games. And as usual Jeff is right on. We all knew this team would get old, and I think we all hoped Danny could pull another Magical Trade that would keep us a legitimate contender. As a fan, I’m always hopeful, that we’ll catch fire and win another championship (like 1969). Yes, I was a fan then and laughed when they showed pictures of the balloons in the LA Forum ceiling as the Celts walked off with #11.
However, as we all know, Danny has set us up with Cap Room next summer. That’s when the rebuilding or reloading will take place – hopefully. In the meantime, we need to get PP back, intergrate MP and the other new guys and start playing Celtics basketball. If that doesn’t happen, then I see Danny trying to begin the reloading at the Trade Deadline.
And so we wait....
Nothing to until trade deadline really – no matter if they right the ship and lead the Atlantic, fall apart and out of a playoff spot or something in between the two. By February we’ll know if we should move for a piece to help this year – or trade away players to contenders for more chips to deal/rebuild with.
Bottom line is that Danny is rebuilding this ship next summer no matter if the win it all or miss it all.
Exactly.
It’s not like Danny’s going to take JO and the Big Three behind the barn to shoot them this afternoon.
“Blow it up” opportunities will mature over the next couple of months, and if it makes sense to make such moves with expiring assets then, then it’ll only be hastening the rebuild by a few more months anyway.
Unless we blow things up...
… we have very few options.
by Big_Easy on Dec 29, 2011 10:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What options does blowing it up give us?
That we won’t already have in the summer with Rondo + Cap space? If this crew doesn’t bring banner 18, no one else will – we don’t have assets like in 2007 – our asset is is cap space..
+1
Da will have to do a masterful job to bring some elite free agents
by vgarcia890 on Dec 30, 2011 4:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
we do have assets, they're called expiring contracts
and as much as I don’t want to see it happen, Allen and Garnett are basically the equivalent of theo ratliff years ago. They have big contracts that expire at the end of the season.
I’m not saying blow it up now, NOT AT ALL. but if we are out of it come february because of some long-term injuries those two guys become trade assets…
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Ray
If we begin to blow it up at the trade dealine, I can see us auctioning off Ray to a contender. Would Chicago like another shooter? Maybe Dallas, Clips or another team that needs shooting? The trick is to get back young (cheap) players or low draft choices and no long term contracts.
How would we get those if we’re dealing them to contenders? Obviously we wouldn’t get high draft picks. And who are these young, cheap players that CHI, DAL or LAC have and would be willing to trade to us?
I just don’t see the point in trading KG or Ray if we’re out of contention. We’d be far better off playing out the contracts and resetting during free agency. At least that way we’d have more cap room.
"Can't eat sushi in Utah, brother. Landlocked."
by IsItTheShoes on Dec 30, 2011 5:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We need another Center
We needed another Center last year after the Perkins deal,and it remains the same now.
My site celticstitletown.com
Perkins trade and lacking a tough presence in the middle...
I hated the Perkins trade at first and then was semi-convinced of its merits last season as were many others. It obviously turned out terribly for the Celtics given the collapse in the postseason and the loss of Jeff Green this season. I’m more convinced now that my and a lot of others initial criticism still holds water.
In the 2010 playoffs, if nothing else, between Perkins and Rasheed there was 12 hard fouls the Celtics could give to get in the heads of whoever their opponent was. I feel like losing that intimidating enforcer in the middle be it Perkins, Shaq or Rasheed, the Celtics lose a lot of what made them a force to be reckoned with. It was a lot of people’s criticism of the Celtics then that they were a bunch of bullies, big tough goons who would just knock opponents over rather than out-play them.
I think if Lebron or Wade or whoever drove to the basket and ended up on their backs a few times against the Celtics it would stick with them and make them hesitate the next time they thought about it. And if not, it would at least give Celtics fans a little something to smile about each time we play the Heat.
Is all Joel Pryzbilla talk to the Celtics talk dead at this point? Or anyone else who could fill the enforcer role for us this season?
+1
Exactly what I thought about this team too. We’re missing an angry man in the middle.. To at least make KG more angry and play better. I really like garbage men who swallow rebounds, hustle, take the charge, hard foul and make it hard for opposing teams to get in.
Probably why I respect Brian cardinal, Perk, Sheed, Pryz, Rodman, etc. Because they bring it every night.
"Victory belongs to the most Preserving" - Napoleon
by RotB_MattR on Dec 30, 2011 2:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I just don't see this as our main problem
we simply can’t score. we have 2 guys who can get to the rim (rondo and PP), and zero guys who can post up.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
The Problem
I think the problem is more subtle. When the big 3 were assembled they complimented each other perfectly. Although they still compliment each other, age has caught up and they can’t cover for each other anymore. At that time Rondo and Perk were perfect compliments. Now Rondo is literally a one-man fast break, and the big 3 trailing behind. The loss of Perk is more pronounced as KG is not the defensive force he was. Remember, Father Time waits for no one or team, in this case.
Have you seen the Hollinger piece putting the C's (very) early season defense between 28th and 30th
on a number of key metrics?
3 Games.
Ray Allen isn’t going to shoot 63% from 3PT land and the Celtic defense is not going to end up ranked 28-30th.
But The Steamer IS going to record nearly 500 blocked shots …. LOL!
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
we played 2 of the best offensive teams in basketball
we have a ton of new players trying to learn the system.
we don’t have a very good defensive SF by the name of PP playing, instead we have two guys who can’t play defense without a foul being called
I’m much more confident in thinking we still have a problem scoring which has been an issue for 2 years than jumping to the conclusion that our defense is no good anymore because of a 3 game sample.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
by WillyBeamin on Dec 30, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
plus our ‘defensive’ numbers have been brutally amplified by a key offensive stat: Turnovers.
We are dead worst in TOV% right now. We’ve turned the ball over on 17.8% of our offensive plays!!!!!
That has lead to far too many easy baskets for the opposing team and is not really the fault of our ‘interior defense’, like a lot of media folks keep harping. Most of those points-off-turnover are easy, uncontested or barely contested layups and show up in the stats as ‘point-in-the-paint’. So people who don’t look closely at what that means jump to the conclusion that we did a poor job of defending the post.
Not that I’m claiming our post defense has been great. We have gotten burned several times in there on legitimate half-court play. But the problem has been greatly, greatly exaggerated by the rash of turnovers on offense.
Sheesh! We’ve committed 56 TOs in just 3 games!!! That’s almost 19 per game! We need to get that down to under 15, at least (and obviously, lower is better).
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
+1
excellent post, doesn’t hurt that it backs my argument :)
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
Loss of Perkins is the reason why
And the sad part is Danny’s not admitting it, at least publicly.
Fire DA!
by KingCeltics on Dec 30, 2011 7:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Loss of Perkins
If Perkins lost some weight when he was playing for the Celtics he would have avoided that serious knee injury(in my opinion). He has lost 32 pounds and looks to be in better shape now than he was in his entire Celtic’s career. Perk was too busy stuffing his face while he played for the Celtics.
by Celtics9Lakers2 on Jan 1, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
The Mavericks just lost to the Thunder - making their record also 0-3
The defending champion Mavs have lost to two good teams in the Heat and Thunder and 1 so-so Nuggets team. It’s a similar situation as the Celtics, older players, adjusting to new additions to the roster.
Still, I think any team in the NBA would underestimate the Mavs or Celtics in a 7 game series at their peril.
The Mavs defense hasn't been great
but like with the Celtics their offense has been their main problem. Like the C’s they’ve turned the ball over a lot (though not quite AS bad as us). They are shooting very poorly – just 46.0% eFG% (much worse than the C’s). The are only managing to score 98.2 pts per 100 possessions (23rd).
Also like Boston, they have also been ‘unlucky’ in that their pythagorean W-L predicts they should be 1-2. Like Boston, they have lost a couple of close games.
Small number stats based on just 3 games, of course. I expect both teams to do better going forward.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Apologies for the off topic but...
…did anyone watch the DAL-OKC game?! Phew! Durant for the win!
In some kinda related news, we have the same win-loss record as the defending champs… we’re in good company…. no need to panic! But there is need to be concerned!
https://twitter.com/johnschuhmann
“The Celtics, Mavs, Lakers & Grizzlies are a combined 1-10. This is going to be a crazy season.”
If it were just the C’s with no “lockout situation”… I’d be firing away with crazy ideas for improvements too.
yep...
..we’re in good company…at the bottom of the standings with the mavs :)
LOL! Awesome!
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I'm still optimistic that the C's will finish with a winning season
I mean were only three games in with sixty-three left to play and who knows what will happen once Truth comes back and once Pietrus starts playing for us and the big three shakes the cobwebs off from the long off season and in the first two games againist good teams, the C’s showed character in being down real big to almost coming back from the dead to win it.
But i’m also a realist, this team won’t win us banner 18, if we just get into the playoffs it will be a win for all us. The fact remains that this team is too old to keep up with guys from the Bulls, Heat and Knicks in a playoff series and eventually beat one of them. We still need an effective center as JO hasn’t been cutting it and our D have been next to nothing. I mean one minute we would score and give up points on the next possession
Yep Jeff your right there’s a reason why Danny wanted to make major changes and were seeing the reasons in these first three games.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t think we should consider blowing up the team yet, but we just need to come to the realization that this teams isn’t young and good enough to compete for banner 18. Sad, but true.
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The Boston Celtics Basketball Club: Searching for Banner 18 since 2008. One of these days well get it....hopefully.
by Bradley James McEachern on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 PM EST reply actions
They shouldn't trade Rondo.
Because his play has been as good as ANY point guard in the NBA, I’d only trade him for a Durant or Lebron level player.
But Jermaine O’Neal should probably be traded. You have to respect what he’s done over the course of his career but he’s been invisible these first three games. We need a tough physical 5. Do that and I think we’re right there.
I think the Doc and Rondo combo is inherently unstable--
Doc wants him to play with madman intensity, but plays him so many minutes that that is a human impossibility.
EXACTLY!!!!! And Doc cannot / will not recognize when Rajon is tired & sub him out more
Thus you see Rajon’s man wreaking havoc in the lane b/c Rajon is gassed.
Doc says he wants Rajon to attack the basket—-Great! Doc says he wants Rajon to pick up more full court pressure—-Great! Doc says he will sub out Rajon more for this—Not happening
I think we all can see Rajon putting out huge energy with full court / heavy ball pressure & also pushing the ball hard & attacking the rim……..but that is gonna drain your energy so much faster…..so we then see a tired, dragging Rajon, & we see Doc ignoring this & not subbing…. & we see E’Tuan who has looked so great just sitting there unless there is 10 seconds or less on the clock…………FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree
Just throwing out a wild suggestion. If I were the Wizzard, I wouldn’t make this trade. But it seems like Andre Blatche is wearing or worn out his welcome in our nation’s capital. What do people think of JO and Bradley (or other filler/fodder) for Blatche. He does have 4 yers left and eats up around $7M per year.
The reason I bring up Blatche is I’ve seen several games (not just VS Boston) where he’s been the best big man on either team and that included a healthy KG, Dirk, Gasol and others. I’m not as scared of his salary (Danny could probably flip him if needed) as I am that he’s become a head case. But losing does that to players. Maybe a change of scenery would be good for him and us.
1969
Glorious Finish!!!
Celtic Chat Handle: Bird
by David Henderson on Dec 30, 2011 12:21 AM EST reply actions
Sir Rants Alot....let me ask a few questions
I assume you, like me, at the beginning of lat year thought “the window” was still open to win Banner 18…correct?
I would also assume you, like me, realized that one year later (as in NOW) the window would surely be almost closed, maybe a crack of hope …..correct?
Now if last years chance was better than this years chance, what was done at the beginning of last year to make it the best possible scenario for winning Banner 18 while there was a breeze of hope still blowing thru the partially opened window? Let’s review
We signed Jermaine O’Neal (well Danny did..you and I didn’t) He turned out to be injured most of the year which really came as no real surprise to much of anyone. That didn’t help the “window thing” and that “hope thing”
Danny also signed Shaq, and he too turned out to be a bust as too was old and broken down as well. Those CHOICES didn’t help maximize the open window in possibly last year of it being still reasonably open. Did they?
Then last January,,,,,when we get back our real true tough center, the one who helped us win Banner #17, and the one who blended so well with the Big 4….Danny up and trades him for two guys who really didn’t “help us” much in our march to the playoffs and our real final season of “the open window” And in fact, neither are here this year to help and no I am not blaming Danny for the aneurysm as someone indicated I was saying – don’t be foolish. i am just saying he chose Green over Perk and few bucks …..and that turned out to be a bad choice and bad choices for whatever the reason have to reside with the people who made them.
I agree with you that Danny did scramble like a mad man this fall in trying to trade the ONE real chip he could trade (Rajon Rondo) because he couldn’t trade the Big Three without totally blowing it up and you can’t sell tickets blowing it up. He couldn’t lay out big money for others because his “wiggle room” of spare money was tied up in re-signing what didn’t work last year for us ( aka Jeff Green) and also tied up having to continue to pay for the bad move he made last year in Jermaine O’Neil at the Full MLE I believe
For me, the question is not whether or not this year still has hope, or should Danny blow it up now because we already missed our real chance LAST YEAR.
Of course there is always hope (a least a sliver and I like Hope). And of course you can’t blow it up now because in a few months you’ll have lots of money when the contracts all role off the books, so there is no need to do it now. Besides no one wants a team blown up at the start of the seasn…thats just stupid. We didn’t “blow it up” or sink it last January but once we traded Perk we certainly had a hole in our boat.
My point? When the window was a lot more open last year the wrong moves were made to give us the best shot at winning one more Banner with the Big three…..instead all those moves produced nothing of any real value and put us in a bind this year. All those decisions lie at the feet of Danny Ainge…..the buck stops there….
This year (for me) was basically set in stone before it ever got started…..I will watch, cheer, hope,enjoy and yes….complain….because I am a Celtic and I have the right to my opinion – I earned it after 40+ years of being a fan
I know my Ainge opinion on here is not popular because he is so well liked ….I can’t help what I feel.
I will however quote Mark Twain ……I cannot call to mind a single instance where I have ever been irreverent, except toward the things which were sacred to other people.
Is it Soup Yet?
broken record.
Everything lays at the feet of Danny AInge except for the fact that the BIg Three got old and KG’s legs are shot. That lies with a higher power.
Some other things that lay at the feet of Danny Ainge, the 2007-08 NBA title, the four years of being a true title contender after 2 decades of mediocrity or worse.
In the business of running professional sports franchises you take the good with the bad and Danny Ainge has produced more then enough good to be given the benefit of the doubt.
I would think that someone like you, (or myself) who has been a Celtics fan for decades would appreciate what Danny Ainge brought back to the Boston Celtics…. relevancy, pride, a winning attitude that has been missing for two decades. You constantly rail on the guy like he is Rick Pitino Must be you have a short memory. I cannot forget the Celtics being a poorly run and poorly coached organization for two decades after being yearly title contenders for most of my life before that. I appreciate what Danny Ainge has brought back to Boston. I have faith that if he could do it once he can do it again.
I don’t get it and that is my opinion.
by CelticsFanNC on Dec 30, 2011 8:18 AM EST up reply actions
why so angry at people who aren't drinking what you;re drinking ...? You call me a "broken record"
you insult me in other posts in a condescending tone….as if I am an idiot. I find your attacks on me to be insulting.
Where in my post above did I attack your opinion? When have I ever attacked you opinion or been condescending to you? Please find that and show me. I have never once came behind your post and raked you over the coal
While I am a moderator and an author on this site and could delete your previous rude comments to me I am not going to…..I will recuse myself from that duty…but I hope you are not doing this type of action to other posters as it against the rules of this site. I hope some other mod takes you to task on your behavior.
We have a different opinion on Danny Ainge….but you had to jump up on my back and ride me again for merely having a different opinion and I find that a bit revealing.
Respectfully
Po
Is it Soup Yet?
not angry
I apologize if I insulted you or hurt your feelings in any way. That wasn’t my intent and I have been properly warned by the authorities. It wasn’t meant or intended as a personal insult.
I also don;t understand or agree with your opinions on Danny Ainge and I am going to express mine when I see things I don’t agree with. That why we’re all here right? To discuss the Celtic’s. When those opinions seem to be in every thread it kind of comes across to me as trolling but whatever.
Unless “Sir Rants Alot” is someone screen name maybe you’re living in a bit of a glass house here btw. That sounds liek name calling for people with thinner skins then I have.
by CelticsFanNC on Dec 30, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
Sir Rants A Lot = Jeff
It’s a nickname, based upon his old “ranter” handle.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
didn't know that
and that prompted me to respond to his post.
I know that in most blogs there are also rules about trolling. I have been a member of many other blogs. I think when Danny Ainge sucks comes up in multiple threads on a daily basis from one poster that qualifies as trolling. Maybe Celticsblog doesn’t have rules about trolling, i honestly do not know.
Again, I apologize and will correct my language in the future. That’s all I can do. I have been warned by the “authorities”.
by CelticsFanNC on Dec 30, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Its not trolling.
Its trolling if you write a large post and then I respond to it with simply, “Danny Ainge Sucks”.
If I respond to it in a comprehensive and personal manner, articulating my viewpoint and backing it up, its debating.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Dec 30, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
?
and I have responded to his posts in a “comprehensive and personal manner, articulating my viewpoint and backing it up on numerous occasions”. Yes I have worded things in a way that I regret because he was obviously insulted by my response. The point is many of those posts I have responded to in numerous threads seem to have the same theme and that theme is “Danny Ainge sucks”. To me that is at very least bordering on trolling.
It’s all good. I have a very thick skin but I know others do not. I stepped over the line and I admit I did and apologized for doing so. What else do you want?
by CelticsFanNC on Dec 30, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
In terms of "what else do you want?"...
… I don’t think IP (Tom) was giving you a hard time. He was trying to clarify the difference between trolling, and simply having a contrary opinion. I don’t think his intent was to say that you were trolling, but rather, to say that post of Po’s was not inappropriate, either. (Also, thank you for the sincere apology.)
Two things we look at in determining whether something is trolling are 1) how comprehensive and reasoned the post is, and 2) whether the comment is on-topic to the discussion. Obviously, shorter, less reasoned, off-topic posts are going to be looked at with closer scrutiny.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
it's all good
There is no shame in my game. I was wrong in the wording of some of my responses to Po. I don’t apologize for my differing opinion but I do apologize for offending him or anyone else. When I am wrong, I am wrong and I have worded somethings in a way that comes across in a light that I don’t want to be seen in as that’s not who I am. I am a passionate Celtic’s fan, we all share that and that is why I feel bad for offending Po or anyone else. I like to debate so I respond to posts that I don’t agree with. I stand by my opinions but not my delivery. That’s something I need to work on.
by CelticsFanNC on Dec 30, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
A REMINDER ABOUT OUR RULES
Respect each other at all times.
Do not start threads or make posts for the purpose of “calling out” other posters
Do not label fellow posters in a way that is likely to provoke a negative response. Dependent upon context, examples include, but are not limited to, “fake fan”, “bandwagon fan”, “not a real fan”, “hater”, “homer”, “koolaid drinker”, etc.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I know the rules aren't as "in your face" on the front page as in the forums...
But it’s important to follow them, so that we don’t see skirmishes like the ones that have become a bit more prevalent lately. The important thing to remember is, we’re all Celtics fans here.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
It is ironic to have rules, yet also have a mod and author that continually breaks one of them.
.
I assume “people who aren’t drinking what you are drinking” is a not-so-transparent reference to koolaid.
I could be totally wrong here, but that is my opinion of what I am seeing. After the big crackdown of this term a month or so ago, Master Po continued to throw it out there. Not so much lately, until now.
Ironic.
by GetYourSoxOn on Dec 30, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
There was a big crackdown around here recently?
Where was I? ;-)
For clarification, there’s no prohibition on the term “kool aid”, so long as it’s not used in a derisive manner or to label other posters. That said, all of our members (including staff members) are subject to the same rules.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
How else could the term "koolaid" be used except in a derisive manner?
.
“Drinking the Kool-Aid” is a metaphor commonly used in the United States and Canada that refers to a person or group’s unquestioning belief in an ideology, argument, or philosophy without critical examination. The phrase typically carries a negative connotation when applied to an individual or group. The basis of the term is a reference to the November 1978 Jonestown Massacre, where members of the Peoples Temple were said to have committed suicide by drinking a “Kool-Aid”-like drink laced with cyanide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid
There may not have been a “big” crackdown, but there was a thread where multiple posters mentioned that the term cannot be used anymore. Perhaps the “small” crackdown happened in the Forums and I missed it because don’t read them due to lack of time.
There was something, however, late summer, early fall, where the use of that term was deemed verboten.
by GetYourSoxOn on Dec 30, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
I think what you had was a lot of non-staff members saying it was never allowed...
… when really, it’s context specific. What it comes down to is whether the term is laced with disrespect / singling out of a viewpoint. Sorry for the nuance, but this is an instance where there isn’t a clear bright-line rule.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Examples:
Cool: I know it sounds like I’m drinknig the Kool-Aid, but I really believe Sasha Pavlovic has All-Star potential.
Not Cool: Only a kool-aid drinker would believe Sasha Pavlovic could be an All-Star. A kool-aid drinker with massive head trauma.
Also not cool: Your mom is a massive kool-aid drinker. (as in she’s fat)
WAYYY NOT COOL: I’m gonna beat you senseless until you bleed green kool-aid you MEE-KROB!
SUPERNOTCOOL: BRING IT ON, YOU KOOL-AID DRINKIN PUNK!!!!!!
Still Not Cool: This conversation and the nitpicking makes me want some old-fashioned Kool-Aid.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Dec 30, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
actually it was discussed and answered by me on this front page and my answer was exactly the same as Roy's below
I said “it is allowed depending on the context in which it was used”
And I did not say Kool-aid" in this instance I said “drinking what you’re drinking” …which could be any number of things …but in this case I was thinking kool-aid …
Is it Soup Yet?
So I'm getting confused - is the spirit of the rule to be followed or just the letter of the law?
Because that seems to clearly be in violation of the spirit of the rule.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Saying it outright or trying to be clever by using other words is different how?
.
Can anyone give me an example of where posting “you’re drinking the koolaid” is not derisive?
“You’re drinking the koolaid (LOL)”?
“You’re drinking the koolaid (but I mean that In the nicest way possible)”?
Now I am laughing out loud!
shrugs I don’t get it.
by GetYourSoxOn on Dec 30, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
here's an idea for everyone
step 1) respect everyone else
step 2) when someone doesn’t follow step 1, do not respond by ignoring step 1 just because they did
step 2b) report it to a mod and let us do our job
step 3) pour some kool aid or whatever drink you like and have a nice day
cool?
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
Eureka, I think he's got it...
Who are you, anyway? New to the blog?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I need me some of that purple drank.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Fire DA!
It’s time for a new GM
by KingCeltics on Dec 30, 2011 7:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not taking sides but some mitigating factors for Danny
Perk was not coming back and was injured and injury prone. Danny at least got something for him.
No way to know that Nenad would jump the lockout and head for Russia.
No way to know that Nenad would get hurt before the playoffs either.
No way to know Shaq was done. The Docs kept telling him he would be ok.
I liked Semi, but he was hurt …and I had heard he was also unhappy.
No way to know Rondo would be playing with one arm in the playoffs.
No way to know Jeff Green would have the medical problem.
He got a GOOD player for Big Baby who was definitely not coming back.
I think he did good getting Moore and Steisma (sp) from the dregs. Time will tell.
He MAY have screwed up with 3J, again too soon to tell.
I guess he screwed up with Avery Bradley, tho I think he will be a good player on another team in several years. Injuries and missing both camps didnt’ help.
Tell me how many other mitigating factors for and dings against I forgot :)
I'm not the Devil's Advocate but I consiider him a close friend
How does everyone know that Perk wasn't coming back?
I have read this over and over as if it is a fact. Maybe it is true, maybe it isn’t.
As for Danny’s performance, he brought a championship here with some of the biggest moves in team history. And that is awesome. However, those moves have now resulted in what this team is. Quickly going over the hill and not a real contender this year. Danny’s next big test begins starting at the trade deadline this year and into the offseason.
Overall, I give him a B- grade.
I can’t think of a reasonable scenario where I would want Perkins back this season. Last season, 4-sho. This season, I don’t think he puts us over the top, and if that’s not the case I don’t think paying him is a great idear.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Dec 30, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
There just was no way Danny would have wanted to sign him for 9M per and eat into his future cap space.
If we had kept Perk, he would have walked at the end of the season and we would have less than we have now.
Even though Krstic went to Russia and Green is out for the year, we still retain Green’s rights and we still have a future 1st Rd pick. Those are not insignificant assets.
And the ‘basketball value’ we got out of Krstic and Green last spring was at least as much as Perk gave OKC.
Also, folks need to remember that at the time of the trade, we had NO center on the roster other than a reluctant KG and a rapidly declining Big Baby. Shaq, JO, Perk and Semih were ALL hurt. And Daniels was lost. Danny had to do something to shore up the 5 and the backup 3.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
"There was just no way Danny would have wanted to sign him (Perk) for 9m and eat into future cap space"
And this is just another reason why I believe Danny is wrong.
So Perk at 9m per is n’t a good value? Balderdash! This is the going rate for quality centers in this league. In fact, it’s less than going rate. Perk might not be elite, but is absolutely worth 9m.
Furthermore, the 9m spent on Perk would not have eaten into our cap space that much. Not any more than the 9m Danny apparently was prepared to offer Jeff Green. I’d gladly pay Perk 9m way before I paid that much to Green.
" Hell yeah I'm trying to gain an advantage out here. If you can't handle it, get off the court."- Kevin Garnett
"Stats are for losers."- Rahim Morris (Tampa Bay Buccaneers)
It's the years that were the problem.
Perk wanted a long term contract that would go past this year. Danny was probably thinking (and maybe is still thinking) of going after Dwight Howard with his cap space after Ray & KG & JO come off the books. At a minimum, he wanted to keep that option open. If he had signed Perk to a multi-year deal at 9M per last summer, then the only way he would be able to go after Howard would be to trade Perk, either to Orlando, as part of a package or to someone else to get a replacement expiring contract to free up the cap space anyway.
The Green deal was for 1 year to retain that flexibility next summer.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I think you're missing some key points.
IF Kg, Ray Allen, and Pierce were all 4 yrs younger, Danny would’ve paid Perkins. That’s why Danny extended Perkins alone out of all the young crop. Kendrick Perkins makes a great patio, a fantastic man-cave. Kendrick Perkins is not, however, a good foundation to build upon.
And the offering Green money was a 1 yr qualifying offer in a year he knew full well we would not be able to make any significant FA signings anyways, so it was either extend Green long term, let him walk, or spend the money for a 1 year contract. He spent the money rather than let him walk or chaining ourselves to a risky prospect long-term, while still giving us the flexibility to retain him if he managed to pan-out.
I think Danny is making all the right moves, or at least all the best moves of those available.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Dec 30, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Other factors
I think you have to look all the factors. The surgically repaired knee and then he sprained the MCL on the other knee. He also has a bad shoulder which has given him trouble even after the surgery.
And we disagree on his skill level. Perk is a good low post defender, but his offense is poor. He takes too long to make a move and easily gets trapped. He’s never shown any ability to make the diagonal pass out of the post area (to the weak side shooter).
When you say that is the going rate for quality centers, do you mean a defender or an all round center? One that can play both Offense and Defense.
Further, the league is going to more athletic, mobile players which is not Perk. Boston had been trying for 5 years to get him to lose weight – to what he is reported at now 265 – and that never happened in Boston.
Those are in my opinions of why Danny didn’t want to invest $8-9M or more in Perk.
I think Danny wants to use the Cap Space on an elite player, a possible super star and not on a defensive center.
One thing few people have discussed is that Danny sent him to a good, young team, And he got a good contract. And to his credit, he probably took a discounted contract to stay in OKC. He probably could have gotten 10-12M on the open market. That also probably figured into Danny’s thinking.
I think when people criticize what Danny does, they need to look at more than today, and look at all the implications. Danny has to look 3-5 years down the road to ensure that we don’t become the Knicks. We could keep all the guys, it would be easy to resign Perk for 10M, give KG 2/3 yrs at 15-2M, and Ray 2/3 yrs at 10M. In the old days you could do that and use his expiring contract like a trade exception and fill his spot. But this is now, if we’d signed the Big 3 again in 2 years we’d be dead last with a $90M team salary and hoping to get lucky with the ping pong balls. Adn we know about ping pong balls.
Danny, I think, is more like the Patriots. Danny places a value on a player and if he exceeds it, he lets him go or tries to get value for him. He did that with Perk and felt that the best course was to make the trade. We can disagree all we want, but 2 years from now, we may be signing a different tune if it results in another banner
Tough curve.
An NBA Title, an ECF appearance (after losing KG), another Finals series taken to within 4 pts in Game 7 and an ECS appearance.
Only rates a ‘B-’.
Ouch!
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
It is a tough grade
However, my main reasoning is I think he killed the team last year with the Perkins trade (not necessarily the talent issue, but what I believe this trade did to the psyche of the team). I could be completely wrong. They could have kept Perk and done even worse. Who knows?
Joe Dumars
Was not that long ago considered the about the best GM there was. He put together a roster that competed for titles for about a 5 year period.
Now, Detroit is one of the worst teams in the league. Where is his GM prowess now? Sometimes GM’s just get lucky, and a convergence of circumstances allow them to makes moves that turn into gold. The rest of the time they just make blunder after blunder.
This seems to be almost exactly what is happening with Ainge. Ainge has always been more lucky than good.
Finally, blast me if you want (not directly meaning you “mmmmm”), but I stand by my opinion.
I DO NOT LIKE DANNY!
" Hell yeah I'm trying to gain an advantage out here. If you can't handle it, get off the court."- Kevin Garnett
"Stats are for losers."- Rahim Morris (Tampa Bay Buccaneers)
Celtics did not make ECF after losing KG
Correct me if I am wrong but in those 4 years the Celtics won a title, made another finals appearance and lost in the second round (ECS) twice. They did not make an ECF appearance after losing KG it was a 2nd round (ECS) loss to Orlando that season.
‘B’ is a pretty fair grade. When Danny assembled the team the goal was an NBA Championship which was attained. However I do think most thought this team would have been able to win 1 more during their run. Losing a 3-2 lead in the finals and blowing a double digit lead 2nd half lead to LA in game 7 was a tough blow.
Plus the Celtics are always compared to the Lakers who won 2 titles during the same time span – so their grade would have to be an ‘A’. Since the Celtics were less successful a ‘B’ would make sense, just my opinion of course.
From Doc Rivers 12/28/11 --- "I just thought we played tired," Rivers said. "We looked old tonight."
You are correct - the Orlando series was in the ECS.
Losing a 3-2 lead in the finals and blowing a double digit lead in Game 7 is Danny’s fault?
Why on earth should that affect his ‘grade’.
The team he put together got us one Title and came within a Perk injury and some questionable ref calls of a 2nd. And it’s certainly fair to think that if KG had not gotten injured we would have made another final. He should not be graded down for things he has no control over.
What a curve. 30 students. Only one GM gets an “A”, even though the ultimate outcome is subject to luck and factors well outside the control of any of the GMs.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
That’s always a tough thing to figure out and I don’t pretend to have the answer.
Winning a title was obviously great and Danny deserves credit for that. However he also has to share responsbility for putting together a team that wasn’t deep enough to overcome a Perk injury and win another. Also he rolled the dice with signing aging players, and while it’s not his fault that the C’s have suffered so many injuries he is the one who took the risk by signing them.
It would be hard to say he deserves anything above a ‘C’ for his performance over the last 2 offseasons.
Grades in this case are relative to expectations. After winning a title so quickly I think most experts, fans and the team figured at least one more was on the horizon. Barring another title run this season, I think the legacy of the Big 3 era will go down as one that brought the Celtics back to NBA prominence but also one that should have resulted in at least 1 more title. Successful of course but nowhere near a dynasty.
I remember an interview with Ray Allen after the Celtics won the title. He talked about seeing Michael Jordan over the summer who said that winning an NBA title is great, but you have to win 2 to really be considered among the elite teams. Ray talked about how that really sunk in as the Celtics strived for another title. This group of 3 future Hall of Famers should have won more than 1 title together to be considered among the best teams of all time…
From Doc Rivers 12/28/11 --- "I just thought we played tired," Rivers said. "We looked old tonight."
I'm sorry, but that just sounds too entitled for me.
I have lived too long and endured far too many horrible, depressing, losing seasons in all 4 major sports.
I don’t feel at all that success is only predicated on winning the championship. The story that plays out each season is entertaining in itself.
The last 4 seasons of Celtic basketball are all “A” quality to me. I enjoy great basketball and this has been a team that plays brilliant basketball.
I also know that teachers who grade students on factors outside the student’s control are lousy graders.
This has also been an unlucky team the last 3 years and no, it hasn’t all been due to age. Last year’s injury list was littered with names of younger players like Delonte’, BBD, Semih, Rondo, Perk, etc. It just makes no rational sense to ‘blame’ Danny for those injuries. He didn’t cause Wade to throw Rondo down to the floor, dislocating his elbow. He didn’t cause Bynum to bear his weight down on Perk, causing Perk’s knee to buckle. Both those injuries had nothing to do with Danny ‘signing aging players’.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Again to me it’s all about perspective. Every team says before a season starts that ‘our goal is to win a championship’ even though it’s not a realistic possibility for most. For the 4 seasons (now starting #5) of the Big 3 era that has been the expressly stated goal. The organization made moves designed to put this team in position to win multiple titles.
I would disagree that the Celtics team of last season played “brilliant basketball” and argue that no one on that team itself was even close to satisfied with how it ended. I would shocked to hear anyone in the Celtics organization say that least season was of “A” quality in any way, shape or form.
I do see your point about suffering through disappointing, depressing seasons and how that can alter what is considered a successful team. I am sure the Minnesota Twolves would have been thrilled to make the NBA playoffs last season and lose in the 2nd round. That is because the end result would have exceeded the expected ceiling for their season. Unfortunately the Celtic failed to meet their lofty goals for last season in particular and that has to be considered a disappointment.
For now I think we can agree though, I just want the Celtics to start playing better basketball and beat Detroit to at least show some signs of life. That would definitely be an “A” in my book for tonight…
From Doc Rivers 12/28/11 --- "I just thought we played tired," Rivers said. "We looked old tonight."
Well I certainly would agree and hope that no on in the Celtic's organizations should have been satisfied at all with the final outcome of last season
that doesn’t in any way shape or form affect how much “I” enjoyed the season.
And, no, there were indeed times, when the team was healthy, they did indeed play brilliant basketball last year. The way the team was playing in the fall of 2010 was indeed, brilliant. Almost unstoppable. That was awesome to get to see. You may never again get to see a 5 man unit as awesome as the one with Healthy Shaq, KG, Paul, Ray & Rondo.
And we also were fairly healthy, briefly as we entered the playoffs and it was sweet to blow away the Knicks like that.
We just got unlucky in the Heat series. A few bad calls. A lotta missed shots by us. A ton of ridiculous made shots by them. An unexpected, serious injury. What can you do? You try to control your destiny as much as possible but sometimes it just isn’t in the cards.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I agree that there were times the Celtics were poetry in motion last season with Shaq and it was mind blowingly enjoyable to see. However those moments were far and few between.
As you say the Celtics were unlucky against the Heat. But let’s be fair beating the Knicks was not a given. Talk about unlucky how about the Knicks in that series? Having Stoudemire and Billups injured in that series was a huge blow to a team that only had 3 really good players to begin with. Yet they easily could have won Game 1 and 2 of that series despite being decimated by the loss of 2 of their top 3 players. The point is that many teams are ‘unlucky’ or suffer crushing injuries, not just the Celtics…
From Doc Rivers 12/28/11 --- "I just thought we played tired," Rivers said. "We looked old tonight."
I can deal more with your questioning the success of Danny's decisions--
than your attributing his primary motives as somehow covering up for his last poor decisions. He’s been pretty quick to trade away signings and draft picks that haven’t worked out, and I just don’t see him as being so small in his carrying out his job.
don't have time to answer all the questions at the moment
but holding Ainge accountable for where we’re at is a perfectly reasonable position
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
reasonable yes.
This is how I look at it.
The Boston Celtics were irrelevant for almost 20 years prior to Danny Ainge. Since he came aboard there have been very high highs and some pretty low, lows but we have never for once instant been irrelevant because Ainge always kept things interesting even when we were bad those first few seasons.
I, as many others here grew up with the ingrained notion that the Celtics would always be relevant, always be a contender because we almost always were. It was like a birth right.
Then tragedy and bad management made us irrelevant for almost 20 years. That seemed impossible to me in my younger years but there we were suffering through it.
Danny Ainge changed that. It’s been a mixed bag like just about every other GM this side of Red Auerbach.
But we’re not irrelevant and I for one am grateful for it. Danny Ainge to me has earned the right to rebuild this thing IMO.
by CelticsFanNC on Dec 30, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I agree...
Danny has had plenty of bumps in the road; he’s hardly infallible, and he deserves some criticism from time to time. However, overall, he’s been a very good GM. He’s hard-working, creative, and has a good eye for talent. Most importantly, he did the impossible, in delivering a championship caliber roster.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Agreed
I been a Celtics fans since 1956 – I’ve listened to championship games on the radio when the NBA wasn’t a on TV. I’ve put up expensive antennas and satellite dishes to watch the games. I’ve driven 40-50 miles to watch regular season games. When I server in Germany and Turkey, I had people send me taped games.
He’s clearly the best GW since Red. So yes, I am Pro Danny. I think he’s done a great job. He’s made good trades and bad trades, but he has the guts to make them. And you can’t fault his motives – it’s never personal. If he believes the trade will make the team better either today or in the future he will trade anyone!!!
I guess, my point is that I get tired of the constant criticism he gets. We were horrible for 15 years. From 1956-1986, I never could have imagined a time when we would be a laughing stock that we were for 15 years. Now, we have a championship caliber team (although bleak looking right now) and the criticism keeps coming.
True
But I do believe you did a post when the Big 3 were brought together, that it was a gamble because they were all in or close to 30 at that time. You, and I, and all Celtic fans knew that the window was about 3 years. We’re past that window, so we all expected a decline then but now it seems like no one ever believed there would be a decline. I think our expectations are higher than are realistic. As a fan, I think, we should win every year!!!! But last year we were in the elite 8, in college that gets Danny a big raise and extension. Here it seems to be a C.
Further, we all know Danny’s plan was to be a player in FA and trades this summer. He negotiated his contracts that way, and tried to fill in the holes with role players. Those deals haven’t worked out very well. Further, when Shaq was healthy we were the best team in the league. Injuries happen! And yes you can question whether he should have counted on a healthy Shaq, but in the Salary Cap era those are the decisions that have to made. In 2008 do we win without PJ or Sam Cassell? NO WAY!!! You win some and lose some. But I’m glad he’s willing to make moves and take risks, I believe in the long run his decisons will work out.
Last point, we all say Danny, when I do believe that Wyc, Doc and the entire management team is equally engaged in all these decisions.
basically yeah, that's the fear
the fear is that Danny ruined our last chance last year by dealing Perkins
or even worse, that dealing Perkins didn’t even matter because we were going to lose with him anyway and the window closed a while ago
I think it is legit to call Danny to the mat for some of his moves
I tend to give him more credit than you but I see your point and respect it
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
this was in response to PO's original rant
hard to tell this far down :)
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
Po, so you're saying....
we still have a chance? j/k ;)
You also have a right to my opinion……should I ever have one.
I don't think we "stink", but I don't think we can seriously contend anymore
Even with Pierce in the mix.
As much as it pains me to say it, we’re not a tier 1 team anymore – yes, age is a factor but there’s a lot of other issues at work here. The most glaring are the fact that we have NO presence in the middle. None, zilch, nada. There’s also that fact that we don’t really have the personnel to implement Doc’s defensive system effectively. Don’t get me wrong, guys are trying defensively, but it they – particularly Ray, KG, and JO – just can’t get it done anymore. Offensively, Rondo has done all he can but he has to create for himself AND everyone else. As we saw with D.Rose and the Bulls last season, it’s tough to win championships that way. Pierce will help here when he returns, but even he can’t create shots the way he used to – they way we’ll need him to in order to be a serious threat.
It comes down to this: if the goal is to make the playoffs but get eliminated in the 1st or 2nd round, then we’re good to go with this squad + Pierce and Pietrus. But if the goal is to win a championship this season, it just may be out of reach at this point.
You just got Rondo'd
Some kinda off topic...
…Troy Murphy, who was bashed here by a lot of people, is doing pretty good with the Lakers.
In related news - It takes time! Relax! ;)
Its because the lakers coach plays him
Hes not great but he never got a fair shake here
by Kgwillkillyou on Dec 30, 2011 2:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agree.
Never got a fair shake + never had more time to be back physically coming off injury… So yeah, my point being… it just takes time ;)
By the way, I might have missed it but… does anyone know when Pietrus and Wilcox will play again?
I've been watching Troy & the lake (know thy enemy)
I know a lot of people are not big on coach Brown, but he has them really hustling on defense. It’s kinda shocking watching them. They are looking less finesse-y & more physical on defense. They are morphing into east coast old school d, & I don’t like it one bit.
Coach Brown also is using a former starter, World Peace, to anchor his bench. He told Ron Ron that the bench was his unit, & he was in charge of making them work hard. It sounds funny, but it is actually working. Which led me to ponder……….what if Doc put one of the starters on the bench to anchor that unit ? If the bench got vastly better while the starters got a little weaker could that lead to something big ?
Troy is getting minutes (Bynum suspension), & he is running his tail off. You should see him show really big pushing the guard back to half court & then run like a madman back to his guy. He was fighting hard vs Amare & Chandler (who has a tech in every game—-real hot head —gotta take advantage of that next game) & holding his own rebounding. Pretty good pick up for a minny.
I’m not a kobe fan, but I respect the fact that when he loses the ball he runs as hard as he can back the other way to steal the ball back, block the shot, or give a hard foul instead of just standing there like 99% of the league watching his mistake score 2 points.
Only one bone to pick with this article
Keyon Dooling is no point guard. In 5 games and plenty of minutes, I haven’t seen him ever, EVER handle the ball like a point guard. He’s a shooter. A 2. And far, far away from ever being a point guard in this league.
Otherwise, yeah… it’s too early to panic, but there’s plenty to worry about. The next couple of weeks should tell the tale.
Well, Keyon's really a combo guard.
He split a little more than half his time at PG last year.
His assist rates (ratio of assists to possessions used) are perfectly average for a PG – about 38%. We are spoiled by Rondo’s 79% (second only to Nash’s 80%), but in truth, Dooling is in this regard a typical NBA PG.
For shooting guards, the average assist rate is only about 18%.
To put this into more conventional numbers, the last couple of years Dooling has averaged about 5 assists per 36 minutes (compared to about twice that number for Rondo). Note that includes spending about 45% of his time as a 2 guard, so his rates while playing just PG are probably higher.
Dooling also scored a fairly ‘PG-average’ “hands” rating of 18.7. Again, no where near Rondo or other elite PGs, but fairly average for a PG.
So yeah, compared to Rondo, Dooling looks like a shooter. But compared to typical shooting guards, he looks very much like a PG.
He’s only logged 58 minutes so far as a Celtic. Give it some time.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
58 minutes is enough
to note that he has very poor ball-handling skills, but a pretty damn good shot.
Give the rock to any guard, and he will sometimes pass it for assists. My problem with Dooling is that he has not shown ANY significant skill as a point guard on this team. The Cs flounder every time he tries. I do not like our chances if he’s our only backup PG. Maybe Bradley can be taught. He at least has the basic skills… speed and reasonably decent ball handling. (But he too is a long way from ready to lead a contending team as PG.)
If only DWest could have been brought back……..
good breakdown, mmmm
I have always thought Dooling would be good for this team in particular.
He is a 2 way player at 2 positions, tough, and a team guy.
Very accurate statement: "So what's the bottom line here? I don't know yet."
That’s the key point. We all need to be patient. We don’t know enough yet to panic. There’s a whiff of smoke in the air. So there must be fire, right? But is it an inferno or just a cigarette stuffed in an ash tray?
I say give it through the next 11 games. That includes some home games and a 4 game pause in which Doc will get a chance to do actual practices for correcting systematic problems and installing new things. In other words, that will be our real ‘pre-season’.
If we still suck after that, then that would be a fair time to call the fire department and break out the hoses and axes.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
indeed
My thought as well
by kuekuatsheu on Dec 30, 2011 8:37 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
question....would you do this trade?
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=86w7q9x
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Who are you cutting to make room for the 2 extra bodies?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
And
That leaves us with the steamer as the only legit 5 man
by Kgwillkillyou on Dec 30, 2011 2:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I decided to have fun with this
I traded Ray Allen and JO for Dwight Howard and it was successful, but both teams projected wins dropped lol
yes but bulls never agree to it
only espn would like a trade like that :P
Will / Can the Celtics win another game in 2011?
The next several games look winnable for this Celtics. If they still can’t pick up a win or two between now and the first week of Jan, then its time to panic.
That is what is so annoying
For about 3 seasons now we as celtics fans simply dont know which team of our is going to show up from game to game. The defensive monsters, the old team, the uninspired/lazy team, the slow start, the second half let down, the chippy vets. No game is automatic because they dont consistently play to their potential
by Kgwillkillyou on Dec 30, 2011 2:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
LOL - just enjoy!
At least no one can say they are predictable!
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Hey look!
The Celtics are no longer the worst team in the NBA anymore! Dallas Mavericks dropped to 0-3 too!
In related new, Doc should take a lesson from Pop
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/12/29/pops-surrender-right-move-for-spurs
If Doc keeps running our old guys to the ground, that’s where this team will end up… 6 feet under. Pop’s got it right, and I hope Doc finds a way to conquer his aversion to playing new guys. Before it’s too late and something really bad happens.
I fully concur
Pop is one of the smartest people in the game. Doc should definitely take a page out his book, or chapter for that matter. One thing though, San Antonio is used to it because they had success with it. Over here, the media would grill him since it will be ugly until it would eventually work out (perhaps).
by brilliantcorner on Dec 30, 2011 5:35 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
+1
.
Doc needs to understand, “Ready or not, here they come!!”
They being the Kiddie Korps
by GetYourSoxOn on Dec 30, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely! Look at how Pop got the old geezers to d up on 2 good teams
Held the Griz to 82 points while they scored 95
More surprising, held the Clips to 90 while they scored 115
& then look at how Pop managed their minutes in those games. Starters played in the 20s (minutes) vs the Clips-WOW !
Well, the irony is that, in the last lockout season
when Popovich took the Spurs to the title, he did it with young Timmy and a bunch of very old fart senior citizen players.
Otherwise, I disagree that Doc has any aversion to playing new guys. Before the Big Three formed, he gave tons of minutes to rookies and 2nd years. That’s because you do that when your team sucks. Doc is actually very, very similar to Popovich in how much time he gives to young players and when.
When your team is dominated by veteran studs and you are contending, you only play rookies in slop time and when you literally don’t have a better, veteran option ahead of them. Hence last year we played Semih and Luke quite a bit. Hell, if Semih had not gotten injured, he almost certainly would have broken 1000 minutes.
But this is a veteran dominated league. Every single year, check the roster of playoff teams and see how many minutes rookies get. It’s tiny. Yes you have exceptions every now and then (see Duncan, mentioned above). But that is rare. Teams that give a lot of minutes to rookies tend to be the crappy teams. A) because they don’t have any better veterans and B) because they have higher draft picks.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
That's the point
It’s not very noteworthy for a coach to play his new guys when the team is not contending and it makes no difference anyway. What is hard, especially for Doc, is to let new guys have significant run when the team DOES have a shot, and the vets are there ready to be either overused-and-abused, or wisely rested and saved for better days. This is what Pop has learned to do well, and Doc has yet to learn. Here’s hoping he gets it soon…… because if he doesn’t, this particular season will be killer.
What´s the point
In having a season in which we probably will reach the play offs but without any change of winning nr. 18. Next years draft is going to be very strong so why not try to get as many first round pics in the proces of rebuilding and start right now.
Why bother watching/??
If everyone is so obsessed with the Celtics going downhill, why are they bothering to watch?
Is it that you are afraid you will miss something? Well, you probably will. I am not ready
to jump ship (in fact, I probably never will), I will ride this out, I am sure things will turn around.
Jump ship
What has jumping ship to do with anything.
Just wondering what would be the best for the Celtics right now if there is very little chance of winning nr 18. I am first and foremost a Celtics fan and not a KG, Rondo, PP or Allen fan. If the best thing for the Celtics is to break things up and trade some of these players I´m all for it. I´m not saying this is the best way to go about things, but what is the point of keeping this team together for one more run if we don´t stand a chance of winning it all.
Three losses in December...
mean as little as three wins in December when it comes playoff time. Our first three times playing Miami last year: remember we cut through Miami like a hot knife through butter. Remember how good those three wins felt? Well, how did they feel after a second round exit?
If this team gets into shape for the playoffs AND stops with the turnovers, they are, at the least, competitive with anyone. Their defense right now stinks and their offense lacks its best scorer. We’ve given up too many monstrous quarters. PP cannot be a superman upon his return and fix everything but we must realize that we are at least a significantly better team with PP on the court.
For me the biggest negative that won’t get fixed with extra practice and chemistry is that of a lack of a low post game. I don’t see us getting past really athletic teams without a low post threat. A threat down low changes completely how teams have to defend us. This is why Danny gambled so much on a healthy Shaq last year. I haven’t taken a scientific count but it seems to me that Quis is posting up more than anyone else. That is not a good sign.
Our defense will get better with chemistry and with PP’s return.
But there are positives. Ray Allen looks supernaturally great. Rondo has been hot. Bass has looked good.
I won’t throw in the towel when we lose the second of back to back games and our third game in four nights. All on the road and all without PP. We probably SHOULD have lost threes games. The fact that we kept it close in two of them surely disappointed me that we couldn’t pull out a win but let’s face it, it’s not shocking that we lost.
And I don’t think it will be any more shocking that this team will play much better tonight. Doc knows how to make adjustments.
Jeff I don't like the fact you're too much stuck to the reality and afraid to look into the future
Leave it all aside, when who comes back and when which player gets injured. Just look at the end of the season and tell me you can’t see this team with 40+ wins.
2009/2010.
Agreed, that would not surprise me.
Obviously home court is preferable, but even if we are the 6th-8th seeds, we have a shot. Our biggest problem then is playing against the refs as well.
by kuekuatsheu on Dec 30, 2011 8:31 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
They should IMO be treating the next week or so as preseason. Giving long minutes to the bench, long minutes to rookies. Mix up the squads get some youth playing with veteran savvy. Figure out which units can be most effective together. Maybe it is time (at least this early in this hasty season to consider dropping KGs minutes to 25, none of the 3 should play more than 30 min. Doc needs to accept this, I know that he hates playing rooks and that he had good marks for Moore and the steamer, but he needs to get them all time to see what they can do. Hopefully with another week, week and a half of this “preseason” mentality we can hit our stride with all parts returning. I am not worried about the 3 losses, if they did not beat NY, I kind of expected it. We still have a good team, we just need that preseason tuneup more thanever. Doc needs to change his MO.
I wont hold my breath.
by kuekuatsheu on Dec 30, 2011 8:28 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
I have thought this since the Christmas opener, the next losses confirmed that, though the comeback against the heatles brought me some nice hope.
by kuekuatsheu on Dec 30, 2011 8:45 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Cs are old
the heat has gotten better…..
so really DA should do his best to position himself for a rehaul.
Wheather that is done during this short season or not really matters very little to me.
We won is 98 & i’m grateful for that & hope we get a new bunch of guys so we can win again sooner than later.
This team looks old and our spiritual leader (KG) is no longer the KG that can pump his energy threw the veins of the Avery’s of this league.
I’ll route for my Celtics but will not be disappointed when we get blown out by those punks in Miami.
Every dog has it’s day & we had ours.
cannot be frixed
I see things that cannot be fixed, not this season anyways.
KG and JO are toast at least as starters in the NBA. Nobodies fault except father time.
We don’t have premiere athletes at the positions where the NBA in 2011-12 almost demands you have premiere athletes, the 2/3/4 spots. Green might have been a big help here but that’s not happening now again, nobodies fault, that’s life unfortunately.. That is having a tremendously bad effect on our trademark defense. The rotations are a step or two slower then they have been in the past. That’s not getting fixed this season.
I hate being a pessimist. It goes against my nature. I just don’t see this team as a true title contender in 20011-12 even if by some miracle we actually stay healthy the rest of the way. I honestly didn’t see them as a true title contender late last season even though I held out hope. The core of this team with the exception of Rondo is just too old and slow. It is what it is.
We don’t have much of anything anybody wants in a trade except Rondo and no one is going to give us enough to make it worth dealing him away.
What we do have is a ton of cap space next off season, a great, player friendly coach and a GM will the guts to make the kind of changes this team is going to need after this season,
Enjoy the Big Three, They have give us so much. They brought back the pride. They made us relevant for the first time in two decades. This will be their last ride together and they deserve our appreciation. Don’t expect a happy ending though because if you do you will only be setting yourself up for disappointment.
I don't think KG is toast, but he might no longer be an elite defensive PF
Which is a big problem as he’s been the glue for our defense since his arrival.
tonight
Celtics 98 – Detroit 76 then we don’t panic
I agree that the panic talk should die down but...
I don’t think a win over Detroit proves anything about our season anymore than a loss to New Orleans did. It’s a long season. Who knows who will be at full speed or even on this team come playoff time…
by CelticsFan616 on Dec 30, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
had we beaten the knicks or the heat things would look a lot different
the NOLA game was a disaster but everyone would have written it off to fatigue if we had won one or both of the first 2 games. there are serious problems with this team and I do not believe we are a serious contender for a title but I know we can play better. I don’t think jeff green would have made us a title contender either. we need to get younger, bigger, stronger and faster. I don’t see howard coming to the celts so danny is going to have to be patient and develop young players. if this season continues the way it’s going then danny should start rebuilding at the trade deadline if there is a deal to be made. i was in the camp of trading rondo but only for the right player. I don;‘t think rondo is a guy you build a team around but he’s the best young talent we have and danny may have no choice. I’d love to see us play an uptempo, fast break style of bball.
We did beat the Knicks
They rescinded the T’s that cost us the game…. but we still lose???
Celtic Chat Handle: Bird
by David Henderson on Dec 30, 2011 11:54 AM EST reply actions
We haven't seen the 2011/12 C's yet
-Pierce hasn’t played one game
-Pietrus hasn’t played one game
-New players don’t know our system yet – we opened on the road so no practice – we have not played C defense yet this year
Let it play out….
For the record… Danny is all teed up to blow it up next year…
Let’s see what happens tonight… GO C’s!!!!
Celtic Chat Handle: Bird
by David Henderson on Dec 30, 2011 12:05 PM EST reply actions
We all know this ...... right???
You build thru the draft. Wrong. You have to have the number 1 or 2 picks in CERTAIN years, so you can pick: Chamberlain or Bird or Magic (Bird was stolen) or Kareem or Jordan (another steal) or Shaq or Lebron. Unlike MLB or NFL, the NBA is not really a team. One man can carry the team. Most years the top pics are human, not superman.
But if you don’t have one of the top picks or you do but it’s a bad year (or you do a Bias trick), then what do you do?
What Danny did! Get a great Coach, one players WANT to play for. Convince the outsiders that if they come here, they will have a chance to win. Be a insider as a GM (ex player, ex coach etc etc ) , not a rich man’s son or his brief-case carrier.
And Danny didn’t have the Miami or Dallas or Houston or San Antonio advantages of: Golf weather all year,and no state income tax, nor the advantages of the monster markets like NY or Los Angeles or Chicago.
Think about how you would build a team. Finishing in the middle of the draft every year makes you doomed for failure…….unless…….HARK! Look at Larry Bird’s Indiana this year.
I'm not the Devil's Advocate but I consiider him a close friend
They're Done
I’m as big a fan of the C’s as the next guy, but you have to face the facts-the Celtics are not going to win another championship. They’ve been passed by the Knicks, Bulls, Heat. Those are the elite level teams that are competing for a championship. The Celtics will win a playoff series, but thats it. They’re going to get bounced in the second round. I’m not sure who mentioned it, but whomever pointed out the fact that the C’s made a living off being a large, physically intimidating team was spot on. JO isn’t the player that KP is. Plain and simple.
Also important to remember is the fact that both years we went to the finals we had a large, dominant big man coming off the bench (PJ Brown and Sheed). Size wins in this league. Its a fact.
Well, the statement “the Celtics aren’t going to win another championship” isn’t a fact. We’ve played 3 games on the road, lost two close ones that could have gone either way and were blown out after a red eye flight. Those are the facts. When you add in the absence of our best scorer, it takes a mighty big call to look at those facts and claim without a shadow of a doubt that we have a zero per cent chance of winning it all this year.
If that’s what you believe, more power to you. I’m going to watch a lot more of the season before counting this team out. More fun that way :-)
"Can't eat sushi in Utah, brother. Landlocked."
by IsItTheShoes on Dec 30, 2011 5:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
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