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The Real Story of Bill Russell

There is lately some movement toward erecting a statue in Bill Russell's honor, per the words of our own President Obama.

First, let's understand that Mr. Obama's opinion is that of one man. It should in no way be construed as reflecting the opinions of the American people, certainly not in this matter.

Second, I object strongly to the building of any statue for any living human being. I cannot think of a circumstance where that would be appropriate, or even excusable. It is simply Too Much, smacking as it does of hero worship, overstatement and overweening ego.

And besides... Bill Russell was not that great a man.

Oh... heresy? Let's take a closer look...

The Medal of Freedom Russell just got implies that he has done things greater than his accomplishments on the basketball court. It seems he's being lauded now for his role in the struggle for racial justice in America. Otherwise, giving the Medal to a guy whose only accomplishment was winning basketball games would be a travesty against the Medal itself. We should agree about that.* (*Per the comments, this is not true. The "highest civilian award in the land" is, apparently, regularly given out to people just for being good athletes. Something about a "cultural" contribution. Hey, I just live here. Personally, I'd much rather they handed it out to a lot fewer people, but for much better/more special reasons.)

If Russell's role in the racial justice movement had been truly substantial, and meaningful, it would be an excellent reason to give him that Medal of Freedom (and later, statues too). The problem is: it was neither substantial nor meaningful. It seems it was barely significant, and arguably even negative.

It is true that Russell rejected and rebelled against racism. But he did so mostly when it directly impacted him. He did refuse to play a couple of exhibition games in cities where he had experienced racism, and for that he deserves credit. But many observers believe he had little to no impact on the larger struggle for civil rights in this country.

It is arguable, in fact, that his input was a net negative. Where Red Auerbach -- a true racial justice pioneer -- actually DID things in that fight (like hire Russell in the first place, for top dollar), Bill Russell's input was to perceive racial insults where none existed, and hurl hateful statements at all white people, including his own fans. His overreactions on several occasions served to FUEL the fires of the opponents of racial equality, instead of the other way around. (Source: The Rivalry: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and the Golden Age of Basketball, by Taylor, John (2005))

Though Russell was helped by many key white people in his life, from high school on, he never, during his career, expressed any appreciation for their help. (ibid)

His most infamous quote was: "I dislike most white people because they are people... I like most blacks because I am black," in which his view that only blacks, for the most part, were worthy of approbation was made crystal clear. Russell never could make the leap from guys like Red to other white people whose intentions were just as honorable, though outside of his small sphere of personal experience. In that sense, Bill Russell was, in his prime, a man of little vision, and plenty of hate.

He was in many ways the opposite of the great men and women who fought and sometimes died in the name of racial justice.

It was probably for that reason that he steadfastly refused to sign autographs for (mostly white) kids throughout his career, saying once: "You owe the public the same it owes you, nothing. I refuse to smile and be nice to the kiddies." And why, on his retirement, Russell described the Boston media as corrupt and racist... whereupon some in that profession opined that it was Bill Russell who was more racist than most other Bostonians.

In recent years, Russell's attitudes have apparently changed, though there is reason to believe some of that was a careful orchestrated marketing campaign. He now seems to appreciate the city of Boston, and understands, presumably, that not all white people are evil and out to get him.

But that understanding comes now much, much too late. Bill Russell should be judged by the totality of what he did, what he said, what he accomplished... especially when he was onstage. Though the mists of memory leave a glossy film on all things best forgotten, the truth should always remain the truth.

There's one more thing that bothers me about this whole affair. If Bill Russell's relatively small and controversial input in the area of racial justice is truly worthy of the Medal of Freedom, what does that say about the ones who really did fight and ultimately win that battle? Men and women, black and white, whose input in that area far, far eclipsed Russell's: President Lyndon B. Johnson, President John F. Kennedy, Thurgood Marshall, Rosa Parks, Marcus Garvey, Booker T. Washington, Amzie Moore, Aaron Henry, James Meredith, The Freedom Riders, Martin Luther King, Jr., and many, many others.

Oh... but none of them could dunk a basketball.

Could it be that the President chose Bill Russell because Obama is himself a black man who loves basketball, and not for what most of us would consider valid reasons? I think so. And I mark that as one of the perks of being the President. Fine for him, and any that agree with him.

But let's not make the mistake of taking all that too seriously.

If you want to build a statue for a great sports figure, fine, no problem. We have plenty of those, and Bill Russell was unquestionably a surpassingly great sports figure. But don't do it because of the Medal of Freedom.

It's not "racist" to deny Russell his statue. It's arguably hypocritical to build it. I say: wait. Think about this before you do it. Look at ALL the facts, then make the right call. Do not let the haze of time obscure the reality of the man Bill Russell was. Do not make the same mistake President Obama just made.

---------

A word, please: I realize that you may disagree with (at least some of) the above. I don't expect to change your mind, or any minds for that matter. I've written the truth as I found it, with basic references. If you have a different version of these events, please enlighten everyone by explaining it and proving me wrong. I ask only that you back up your version of reality, and keep the invective to a minimum.

Be respectful and keep it clean. Thanks.

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The guy just got honored and you write this? Wow. Just wow.

by NoraG1 on Feb 18, 2011 10:04 AM EST reply actions  

Now's the perfect time

For anyone who believes the Prez got it wrong.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

it's actually a pretty good argument

but having grown up with Bil Russell on TV playing basketball,

watching him on funny commercials and seemingly having a good time in life,

being in awe of him both coaching and playing at the same time,

seeing him hug his coach in pure love and admiration and his teammates too,

seeing somebody overcome hatred to have a smile on his face,

to see his love of basketball and dedication to his craft (even today)

and finally to have spoken with him over the phone and have him show me pateince, kindness and laughter when i was as nervous as I have ever been talking with another human being means……. I still like the guy…I still very much admire the guy….and that’s what makes the world go round …different opinions and values

The Medal of Freedom? I get your argument ….but saying you strongly disagree with any human being getting a statue is a bit odd in my opinion…..Statues can and should be built by anyone willing to erect them using their money and time. It’s a free country and there are many people to admire …..you sound a bit high-handed on that statement…but that’s your right.

Viva La Bill Russell and the game of Basketball
Peace

Is it Soup Yet?

by Master Po on Feb 18, 2011 10:07 AM EST reply actions  

My fault for not making the point clear enough

The word “living” was easily missed, and without that, the general statement about statues would seem odd indeed. (So I bolded the word now.) I just don’t like statues for people who are still walking around. Smells bad to me.

I have noticed how much gentler he is now than he was then. But (as noted in the piece) — he… we… should be judged by our words and actions while onstage. A late-life change of heart doesn’t count.

Personally… I never liked the guy. I thought he was incredibly arrogant, and not very clever about the words he chose to express himself. And now that he’s mellowed out, his appearances on TV never fail to make me…. squirm. He laughs altogether too much (and very weirdly) and when he speaks, I hear nothing but stale aphorisms. Maybe that’s his biggest problem, eh? Just having a bad TVQ.

But I get that people in this city admire the guy. He did spit in our faces when he left…. hated the whole city, and said so. Still… we’re a forgiving people, and yeah, some folks will remember the good stuff more than the bad.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

You argument glosses over all the real racisim that he encountered (reposted from a thread early in the year with slight edits)

Being a racial pioneer during an era of segregation and racism doesn’t deserve recognition? Especially when it was combined with personal courage when it came to being active in the politics of the era?

There are better nominees for such an award, but to imply he didn’t contribute to the nation ignores just how important it was for black men and women to stand up and demand to be full citizens of the country. Bill Russell demanded that while playing professional sports, constantly in the public eye.

Honestly by your logic, Jackie Robinson or the kids who first went in to integrate schools didn’t do anything special either. He just went to work and they just went to school. Symbols matter, especially when people are being beaten, red-lined, and threatened in their everyday lives.

by Fafnir on Feb 18, 2011 10:15 AM EST reply actions  

I don't think I glossed over the racism he encountered

But millions of black people had the same experiences. I gave him credit for resisting it. But I deduct credit for all the stupid things he said… the hateful, negative, counter-productive things he said. It’s all in the piece.

I agree that symbols matter. I just don’t think Bill Russell qualifies as a symbol in any area other than pure basketball.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you did, because you didn't mention it at all except to immediately paint it in a negative light.

Because you didn’t like his reaction to it.

I think you’d be shocked if you actually went back and looked at the history of the civil rights movement and the country as a whole in that era. A lot of the people who we try to saint and declare them heroes were incredibly devisive figures, who said things that were negativel.

by Fafnir on Feb 18, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I think there's a misunderstanding here...

The Presidential Medal of Freedom doesn’t have to go to some heroic figure or humanitarian. Instead, it is given “for especially meritorious contribution to (1) the security or national interests of the United States, or (2) world peace, or (3) cultural or other significant public or private endeavors.”

Is there any debate that Russell has made an “especially meritorious contribution” to our country’s cultural endeavors?

Here’s a list of the other athletes who have received the medal:

  • Hank Aaron (2002)
  • Muhammad Ali (2005)
  • Arthur Ashe (1993, posthumously)
  • Earl Blaik (1986)
  • Paul “Bear” Bryant (1983, posthumously)
  • Roberto Clemente (2003, posthumously)
  • Joe DiMaggio (1977)
  • Billie Jean King (2009)
  • Robert J. H. Kiphuth (1963)
  • Stan Musial (2011)
  • Jack Nicklaus (2005)
  • Buck O’Neil (2006)
  • Jesse Owens (1977)
  • Arnold Palmer (2004)
  • Richard Petty (1992)
  • Frank Robinson (2005)
  • Jackie Robinson (March 26, 1984, posthumously)
  • Bill Russell (2011)
  • Ted Williams (1991)
  • John Wooden (2003)

Some of the above are great heroes of our nation’s history, and have transcended sports. Some are “just” great athletes who have dominated their sports and have given us lots of great cultural moments. The award encompasses both.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

by Roy_Hobbs on Feb 18, 2011 11:04 AM EST reply actions  

Awesome. Thank you.

… I really did not know all that. (Should have looked it up. But I checked a couple of names on your list that I KNOW did virtually nothing outside of sports, like Dimaggio and Palmer.) This is a point missed in all the media reports I read too.

I think the reason may have been Obama’s speech.

So yeah… the question now is whether to build the man a statue. On a purely sports basis, sure, why not (later, though). But there are a few other considerations to think about.

The other issue is legacy. I guess… well, actually, I hope… that it just is what it is.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

No compelling reasons outside of their athletic accomplishments...

Palmer—golf`s first “charismatic” figure.

DiMaggio—briefly married to Marilyn Monroe, and got a mention in a Simon & Garfunkle song.

Musial/Wooden—-beloved and scandal free.

by Title 18 on Feb 19, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions  

And another thing...

It seems like a lot of the arguments have been lifted almost word for word from wikipedia, based upon only one slanted source. I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to look at all the perceived militant things that Russell said, while ignoring the context of what he was going through at the time. Boston in the 60s wasn’t a friendly place for blacks, and if Russell translated a lot of the oppression he was feeling into hatred for the “white” system — rather than individual whites — then I don’t have a huge issue for this. I think I would have held a pretty significant grudge, too. I think you’re forgetting all of the peaceful marches that Russell participated in, and all the other good work he did for the movement. However, if he was at times strident, good for him; somebody needed to be.

Also, this doesn’t look like the image of somebody who hates white people:

There are no stories of Russell ever rejecting his white teammates, or of treating his white players differently when he was a coach. I see the criticisms on wikipedia as essentially out-of-context digs at tearing down a legend.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

by Roy_Hobbs on Feb 18, 2011 11:10 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Wiki was one source... but I checked the facts

And they all appear to be correct. His quotes are everywhere, for sure.

To me, the real heroes of the movement were those that followed King’s lead. You don’t beat hatred with more hatred. And yeah, he liked Red alright. Who wouldn’t?

But I have to say…. after your first post, the rest is now moving into another area completely, one wholly unrelated to the Celtics. It’s now almost purely a question of the history of the civil rights movement in America. So history will judge him. I believe he will remain a very minor footnote in that story. I get that others think differently.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Btw,,,

…the wiki source is noted in the piece. And nothing (i.e. zero) was “lifted”.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

In the series of the top ten guards in celtics history, this picture is with K.C. Jones bio.

Bob Cousy, Rajon Rondo and the Top 10 Guards In Boston Celtics History By Zachary Stanley (Celtics Featured Columnist) on February 15, 2011 shown on Bleacher Report.

 Which one is correct? I’m confused.

Lygafe

Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix | International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ] | Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]

by lygafe on Feb 18, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

DrJ1

I think you should read his book ‘Second Wind’ with an open mind and you’ll get a much more nuanced view of the man. And this book was written well before the ‘marketing campaign’ you speak of. Also pay attention to what his former teammates say about him — Havlicek, Heinsohn, Cousy etc. The man they describe is not the two-dimensional figure you describe.

I followed Russell for almost all of his Celtic career. Always admired him, even as a kid. It’s been moving to see him reconcile with the city of Boston. I think it speaks well of him that he acknowledges the city’s changes and has gracefully put away past bitterness.

by BouncingBuckeye on Feb 18, 2011 12:07 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks for that

I’ll get that book.

Most people are complex, of course, and I was not trying to paint him in 2-dimensions (or 1). I listed some of the things he said (that were relevant to race relations) because the hero worship for the guy seemed over the top to me, based on what I remembered. I’m sure he’s no monster. Didn’t mean to imply that he is.

And yet…. shouldn’t we all be judged by the things we actually DO and SAY? Especially during the time we are on the big stage (if we are)…. as opposed to in retirement? (Logic for that last sentence is: that’s when most people are listening.)

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Two nice quotes by Bill Russell

“We learn to make a shell for ourselves when we are young and then spend the rest of our lives hoping for someone to reach inside and touch us. Just touch us—anything more than that would be too much for us to bear.”
— Bill Russell

"Once you reach a level communication where you have an exchange of ideas and some shared experiences, then eventually you get to the point where the color of your skin or your background is no longer what you use to describe a person. Now the coach-player relationship has more depth because it’s based on more sincere feelings and respect."…..Bill Russell

Is it Soup Yet?

by Master Po on Feb 18, 2011 12:36 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you, Master Po.

You are wise in the ways of sharing Master Bill’s wisdom!

by mmmmm on Feb 18, 2011 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

and a funny one

“Look for a rate hike.”

—when Bill Russell was asked how much money he made for a telephone commercial

Is it Soup Yet?

by Master Po on Feb 18, 2011 12:40 PM EST reply actions  

He did miss the big $

…unfortunately. I bet he would have been happier making $20 million/year. Probably would have happily signed a few autographs then….:) Given his talent level, there’s no begrudging him whatever $ he can make now.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't have time to read the comments, but this is ludicrus.

First, Russell was raised at a time when blacks were still being lynched and segregation still existed. His prejudice, assuming he had some, was come by honestly. Now, I can tell by your post you don’t get that. How many rich black kids didn’t have to go to Vietnam?

Just so you’ll know, the Staples Center has statues of Magic, Gretzky, Hearn and De La Hoya, so there’s no harm having one of Russell. As a matter of fact, It’s Long Overdue.

Now, maybe you don’t think he deserves the Medal, but that get’s handed out to many different kinds of people. Perhaps it should have gone to Tommy Smith instead (my old track coach by the way, and it was an honor to know him – however breifly).

by eastie Rich on Feb 18, 2011 12:42 PM EST reply actions  

I don't disagree with your points

Not sure what is ludicrous then.
Your last point is a particularly good one, made first by Roy_Hobbs, above.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

What I would consider ludicrus is holding

unsavory views against someone who grew up in a seperate and unequal society. It’s easy for us to criticize never having been there.

And Roy Hobbs beat me to it, good for him. He sure knows how to hit the long ball. By the way, do you even know who Tommy Smith is?

by eastie Rich on Feb 18, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting reading- both the article and following comments.

 After reading drza44’s piece and then this one, along with the comments after this post, I must admit to having enjoyed the arguments stated, in an intelligent manner, without some of the idiotic comments that often crop up in a controversy. It led me to read the Wiki piece on Bill Russell, as I was not familiar with the celtics back then, nor was I a basket ball fan in those days.
 
 However, I came from the city that actually broke the color barrier in baseball; no, not Brooklyn, but Montreal, Quebec, where Jackie Robinson played for the Montreal Royals before he was signed by the Brooklyn Dodgers. Racism of the sort that Russell faced was never an issue in Canada, or at least was almost completely muted, and hardly ever felt.

 Not long after my sister married, and left Mtl. for Richmond, Va., I went by myself on my first trip to visit them as a 17 year old, just after graduating high school in 1960, and it was then and there that I encountered racial prejudice and segregation for the first time. It was a shock to me to see Black Americans having to drink from segregated taps, e.g., and to hear the way they were addressed and talked down to. I was very happy that I didn’t have to live in that type of culture.

 I can empathize with what Bill Russell and all those who preceded him and followed him went through in their struggle against racism, and give full credit to those who were able to rise above their past, and to allow those who followed them, to have an easier path.

Lygafe.

Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix.

Lygafe

Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix | International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ] | Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]

by lygafe on Feb 18, 2011 12:43 PM EST reply actions  

+1

Thanks. Great post.

I must admit that some of my antipathy for Russell may… I say MAY… have sprung, in small part, from my childhood, which was spent in….. ummm………. New York City. (gulp)

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Russell`s EXCESSIVE PRIDE...

Bill`s “Good” Pride——It fueled him to incredible athletic greatness. It enabled him to rise above life`s slings & arrows. To defeat opponents on the court, and the small minded people who tried to undermine him off the court.

Bill`s “Bad” Pride——-He lacks the humility to bring himself to apologize {or at least clarify} some of the comments he made decades ago. He likely fears it would show “weakness” on his part.

By painting Boston as the most racist city in America, he brought lots of damage to this city, and hurt countless white Celtic fans who loved him. The bigots who gave him a bad time in Boston were very much in the minority, yet his comments wrongly suggested the opposite.

He has mellowed with age, but he really should apologize and retract aspects of what he said years ago.

by Title 18 on Feb 18, 2011 1:00 PM EST reply actions  

If he hasn't apologized

…which I can’t know for sure, because it’s a negative statement… I’m pretty sure he no longer holds those views.

However, when we judge people for medals and statues, I think we need to count most heavily all the things they did and said when they were on the stage, as opposed to years later in retirement.

by DRJ1 on Feb 18, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll keep it simple

The good HEAVILY outweighs the “supposedly” bad. Give Bill a Statue.

by Mub33b on Feb 18, 2011 4:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

as someone who grew up often getting into fights over racial/cultural incidents

when I became aware of Russell later in HIS life (when he became the Sonics head coach) but still very early in MINE, I had tremendous empathy for his story. Despite your portrayal, I viewed Russell as a teacher of how to get through the bigotry. How to endure the ignorant and treasure the ‘true’ people, independent of race or culture by being true to yourself. Russell was a teacher and if you really listened you would have found much to learn from him.

I don’t know how to respond to this article other than that it smacks of the citation cherry picking that used to infuriate Russell with the media back in his playing days.

by mmmmm on Feb 18, 2011 8:10 PM EST reply actions  

Can you back up that last sentence?

…with, say, explanations from Russell (contemporaneous, preferably), quotes, errata…. anything that ameliorates the negativity of his statements quoted in the main post?

There have been quite a few objections in the comments, but NOTHING in the way of actual repudiation, or even argument, as to his worst issues. The only quotes have been from Master Po, and those were undated and apparently from long after he retired.

People love their heroes. I guess I do too… I just find them far less frequently than most.

by DRJ1 on Feb 21, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Holocaust denial

is rampant throughout the interwebs. Should I expend the exhausting amount of time and energy it would take to go and refute all the long, detailed, fully-cited diatribes that so many loons around the web keep posting and propagating? Or perhaps I should go tackle the many ‘Obama is a Muslim and not even a US citizen!’ crap?

At times, an argument is posted that is so stunningly off-base that one just can’t decide whether it is even worth getting into it. I think that is what many of who have seen this are feeling. It is hard to tell: Is this guy serious? Is he just trying to be shocking? Is he some sort of smart-ass? Is he, like 12 years old? Is it worth my time?

by mmmmm on Feb 21, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Typical

All the quotes, sources…. ignored. Blanket statements with no backup whatsoever. And, as is often the case when you can’t win an argument, you’re the only one with this type of response. Whatever… excuse me while I ignore you.

by DRJ1 on Feb 21, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, fine.

I will respond on just two points from your article.

1) Your snide dismissal of his deserving of the Medal of Freedom award relative to others:

Oh… but none of them could dunk a basketball.

2) His ‘most infamous quote’ – since that surely is the worst, being the most infamous:
His most infamous quote was: “I dislike most white people because they are people… I like most blacks because I am black,” in which his view that only blacks, for the most part, were worthy of approbation was made crystal clear. Russell never could make the leap from guys like Red to other white people whose intentions were just as honorable, though outside of his small sphere of personal experience. In that sense, Bill Russell was, in his prime, a man of little vision, and plenty of hate.

BOTH these are addressable by looking on and actually reading the very page (195) of John Taylor’s book that you probably took that snipped quote out of context.

On (1), Russell himself says:

“I consider playing professional basketball as marking time, the most shallow thing in the world,”

The summer of Medgar Evars murder, Russell attended numerous Civil Rights activities, putting himself in danger and playing both an active and symbolic role in the movement. Do not trivialize what it meant for one of the most recognizable sports figures in the US to go down to Mississipi in that hot bed of tension and conduct interracial basketball clinics. Oh wait – according TO YOU, he never did anything about race except “when it directly impacted him”. That line of yours is so full of it I have to admit it made me incredibly angry.

On (2) in the same SI interview where he trivializes the fact that he “…could dunk a basketball” he of course continues with the statement you quoted. But the full context is as so:

“The Muslims say … the white man is evil. I wonder about that in the sense that I wonder whether all men are evil. I dislike most white people because they are people. As opposed to dislike, I like most black people because I am black.”

Read this very carefully. He is not saying he dislikes white people because they are white. This is a very powerful but subtle questioning of whether all men are evil and specifically questions his own biases.

This in an atmosphere where black people were being openly beaten and murdered.

Russell got one thing wrong when challenged on this in the subsequent text where he says “I was misquoted.” Taylor is probably right in that he was not misquoted. But he most certainly was misunderstood. Those statements are NOT simple and black & white like some folks – you seemingly one of them – like to pretend they are.

Russell expected people to earn respect and to be respected for what they earn. He kept true to this right up to his words to Obama upon recieving the MoF.

Was Russell an angry, defiant man who often seemed to pour fuel on the fire instead of turning the other cheek? Yes. But that does NOT define all that he was. He was also a symbol of succeeding on his own merits in the face of bigotry while refusing to give an inch on what he believed. And also not giving in to his own anger. He questioned whether he could be a pacifist in the movement given his rage when confronted with violence. Yet he was not violent.

Russell has had a whole life for the last 35 years in Seattle that I’ll bet you probably know nothing about. Yet you say things like “Bill Russell was not that great a man.”

I am done with this. I have not the time nor energy to devote to debating on this with you. I simply implore you to learn more before you post on this topic again. Posting something ill-informed and ‘shocking’ is not cool just because it generates a lot of responses. Its still ill-informed. I hate responding in part because part of me worries if this is all just an attention troll in which case I have been successfully baited.

by mmmmm on Feb 21, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't believe you took the time either. Though I admit

I’ve been checking the thread to see your response. Below, I just wrote “wow” because I can’t believe the opinion being defended. It’s just mind blowing.

by eastie Rich on Feb 21, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And you really believe?

… that this post rises to the level of Holocaust denial? Or ‘Obama is a Muslim’ posts? I don’t think you do, I think you were just ticked off…. but in case you do: you are seriously out of touch.

This post noted facts, and facts only. These facts can be interpreted in several ways. I posted my way, and asked for counter-opinions. And this is “like Holocaust denial”? I think I’ll quote our loquacious friend Rich and say ‘Wow…just Wow.’

Taking your points one by one: Russell’s basketball abilities is why we and Obama ever noticed him in the first place. That is obvious, and not debatable. And yeah, I find that a kind of trivial reason to give someone the highest civilian award in the land. As it turns out though, I learned that they do that all the time. So that’s that. It is what it is, and not something I care much about.

What’s more, Russell is someone I don’t care much about either. Don’t think — and I have not claimed — that I did acres of research for this one post on a basketball blog. I looked at what’s out there, put it together with my memories of the man, and came to these conclusions.

If I were wrong, I figured someone would correct me. Didn’t happen, so far.

In your 2nd point, you misquoted me. I did not say that Russell “never did anything about race except when it directly impacted him.” I said “he did so MOSTLY when it directly impacted him.” Which is true. I have no accurate count of how many civil rights events Russell attended. I actually found just two: in 1963, when he participated in those integrated basketball clinics in Jackson, and was with King in Washington. I don’t know of any other such major activities.

And finally… to your biggest stretch of all: the explanation of his “most infamous” quote. The first thing to note is that this quote generated a HUGE brouhaha in the Boston media. This was not just tossed aside. If your explanation were so clear and correct, if Russell truly had been, as you say, “certainly misunderstood” — there would not have been such an uproar. But there was, and your explanation is dubious at best.

I get that maybe he was waxing overly philosophical about the nature of man. (How one comes to the conclusion (or even the realistic notion) that ALL PEOPLE are evil is beyond me, but let’s just press on.)

The key point is this: for all the context and clearly-weird philosophical musings surrounding the quote, the words “I dislike most white people” cannot be altered or explained. The man was a bigot. You can say he had good reason, and you can explain the context… but the quote is there, naked and obvious for all to see.

When he left Boston, he also hurled ‘racist’ accusations at the Boston press. Was that true? I don’t think so.

My conclusion remains that Russell did more harm to the civil rights movement than good. That he alienated almost the entire city of Boston during his time on the stage. And that other people — much wiser and better people — won the main fight.

You make it sound like this POV is weird, an “attention-grab.” Have you forgotten the reaction of most of Boston’s media at the time? Huh? What am I missing here?

Note: That Russell suffered from the injustices of the times I recognize, but find meaningless. As I noted below, suffering itself is universal, and by itself deserves no awards. It’s how we REACT to suffering or injustice that counts.

And btw — btw because it’s beside the main point — I object to the condescending, arrogant, weakly superior tone of your last paragraph. I’m not even going to explain why, it’s so obvious. You haven’t earned that right.

by DRJ1 on Feb 21, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions  

You may take offense, but he made some very solid points. Rather than interpreting his disagreement as an attack on your character or your validity I think it’s worth your time to re-read what he had to say. Yes he came off a bit contentious, but it didn’t read as consdescending from my perspective. You asked him to support what he had to say, he did so.

To be honest some of your responses are coming off more condescending than the ones you have accused of being so.

I think you have discounted some of the racism that has existed within the Boston media with some of your comments. Especially when you look at the experiences of the African American Baseball players that have come through Fenway over the years.

Sometimes glass glitters more than diamonds because it has more to prove.

by Kungfuguy on Feb 22, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Bill Russell

My first question is : HOW OLD ARE YOU? Did you grow up during the Bill Russell
era? I did. Do you have any Idea at all what Bill Russell went through just to live in the town of Reading?? Do you know what ignorant people used to do to his house? Did you read about how he travelled with his team and they were not allowed to stay in certain hotels, eat in certain restaurants, go to the bathroom in certain bathrooms?? Yet, he stayed here, played his entire career here, gave the city of Boston a winning team to follow for 13 years.

What you have written is not the truth. Bill Russell started the Mentoring program when he was here in Boston, and is still involved with it along with his daughter.

I suggest you sit down and read a real autobiography of Bill Russell, see what kind of a man he truly was and is.

He is the greatest basketball player to ever play the game, he changed basketball completely. Points were not everything, he lead the Celtics to 11 titles in the 13 years he was here. I thank God I was able to be a season ticket holder during part of that time and watched him play.

by rosalie on Feb 18, 2011 9:39 PM EST reply actions  

Yes

I know someone who baby sat his children in Reading. She indicated that it was pretty ugly. I feel that his recognition that both he and Boston have moved past that time is good, though I wish he would be more explicit about that.

Separately, it drives me crazy that people suggest that Jordan was the greatest player of all time.

by Silverlock on Feb 20, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Old enough, unfortunately

But haven’t you ever heard the saw about not asking a lady her age? Well, here on CelticsBlog we don’t discriminate against men.

I’ve noted the racial trials he went through. But… this doesn’t make him a hero, or even special, because at that time, every single black person in America was experiencing the same things.

If you have actual explanations for the stupid/hateful things he said — as quoted in a thousand places (including here above) — I’d love to hear them. In my view, there is nothing Russell or anyone can do to change or polish the reputation he built when he was on the big stage.

And speaking personally now… every time I see his too-big smile and hear his too-awkward laugh, I think, “Wow, bad actor. Go away, old man. You’re done.”

by DRJ1 on Feb 21, 2011 2:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Try to think of it as Russell having moved along with the times - they have changed.

 Think of Russell as having fought the demons, both without, and perhaps, within, and that he’s now more at peace with the world, and has mellowed out. Give the man his due.

 He wasn’t an actor then, and he isn’t one today.

Lygafe

Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix | International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ] | Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]

by lygafe on Feb 21, 2011 6:22 AM EST up reply actions  

It's too late now

… for him to have a change of heart that counts. He must be judged by what he did then. And when you do what he did then, you don’t get to say “oops” in your old age and suddenly become everybody’s “hero.”

But what ticks me off the most is the notion, evident in the comments here, that suffering ennobles the sufferer. That Russell should be looked up to because he suffered racial injustice. Nothing is more irritating.

Because what Russell went through — the prejudice, the name calling, the crapping on the bed — all of it amounts to a relatively minor sort of suffering, as suffering goes. You want to know about suffering? 500,000 soldiers died in the Civil War (out of a population of ~30 million), so the slaves could be freed (in part). Most died miserably, alone, in fields and forests, with no pain medicine or any medicine available. They just bled their lives into the ground. Oh, and almost all of them were white.

Later, a whole new kind of suffering was invented in Europe, as millions were murdered, tortured, burned. You want to talk about suffering? That’s suffering.

And yet, no one ever thought they deserved a statue for having gone through all that. Why? Because suffering does NOT ennoble the sufferer. Suffering just is. Everybody suffers. Russell suffered. So far, we are equal.

Heck, my own father suffered a hell of a lot more than Russell did. Where’s his statue?

No, Russell gets ZERO credit for suffering. Credit depends on how one reacts to the suffering one is forced to endure. And in that, Bill Russell failed miserably.

We forgive too easily, forget too quickly. I say no statues for that guy.

(And so, the conversation evolves. Life intertwines. Didn’t expect to get into all that, but there it is, after all.)

by DRJ1 on Feb 21, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

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