Danny's Folly
by Roy_Hobbs on Feb 25, 2011 12:19 PM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
Email
Print
Let me preface this by saying that I'm not as smart as Danny Ainge. Celtics fans don't need me to recite Danny's resume, but suffice it to say that it's more impressive than mine. I'd like nothing more than to look back in a year, and sing Danny's praises about the brilliant trade he pulled off. That said...
I fundamentally disagree with Danny's thinking on the Perk trade. Simply put, I think the Celtics took a step backward this year, and I think that when you're as close to a title as the Celtics are, you need to do everything in your power to maximize those title chances. Rather than maximize our chances this year, I think Danny focused a bit too much on the future.
We've all heard the stories about how Danny criticized Red Auerbach for his reluctance to trade Larry Bird and Kevin McHale as the Celtics faded from championship contention in the late 80s. I look at this as Danny's Red Auerbach moment. Rather than stay loyal to his veterans, Danny looked at Perk's impending free agency, and decided that he needed to get something for him rather than risk losing him. Danny saw an opportunity to remain talented in the present, while getting younger and adding assets for the future. In a lot of ways, this was the equivalent of trading an aging Larry Bird for Chuck Person, Herb Williams and Steve Stipanovich, or moving a banged up McHale for a younger Detlef Schrempf and Sam Perkins. It fundamentally changes the look of the team in the present, while giving the team a (hopefully) brighter future.
It's this thinking that I think is folly. Frankly, I don't care if this deal makes us slightly better in 2012. I don't care if the team was worried about Perk re-signing in the off-season. Teams aren't given trophies for remaining relevant, or for making the playoffs. The only reward in the NBA is a championship, and today, we're farther away from that goal than we were yesterday.
From a video game / statistical perspective, Danny made out pretty well here. On paper, the decline from Perk to Krstic isn't a huge one, and the addition of Green over Nate is a massive upgrade. Danny got OKC to throw in a Clippers' draft pick? Icing on the cake, right? And hey, think of all the cool players we can sign off the waiver wire. Troy Murphy, here we come!
The logic makes sense, except these players don't play on paper or in video games. Judging this trade solely in terms of talent ignores the role of chemistry. It's that chemistry that is almost universally hailed as the reason that the Celtics have the best record in the East this year. Everyone -- from sportswriters to Dwyane Wade -- acknowledges that it's this chemistry that has set the Celtics apart. The players had a synergy on the court that in part was learned from playing hundreds of games together, and in part seemed to spring from the perfect fit of the five pieces on the floor. Doc was fond of saying that our starting five had never lost a playoff series, and I think the team genuinely bought into that. When on the court, the team thought they were unbeatable.
Along with his great defense, Perk brought a toughness and swagger to the lineup. This is a guy who recently busted his hump to come back early from knee surgery. A guy who stayed with the team during his rehab, putting in long hours at the team's practice facility. A guy who just yesterday said that he'd try to play on this road trip despite being injured because "I'm a Celtic, man." When asked about his upcoming free agency, Perk admitted that he had talked with his wife, and couldn't imagine playing anywhere but Boston. He literally shed tears when he was traded. In other words, this was a guy who embodied Celtics pride.
Nate didn't have quite the impact on the court that Perk did, but he seemed to keep guys loose in the locker room. It's hard to say whether that chemistry was worth the $4 million the Celtics were paying him this year and next, but he seemed to have a real bond with the veterans on the team, particularly Pierce, KG, Shaq, and BBD. His twitter videos during training camp seemed to bring the team closer together; rather than the fractured locker room we reportedly had last year, there seemed to be a rebirth of ubuntu that was visible early on.
I think that Danny is fooling himself if he thinks that the team won't miss a beat with these trades. With the two new players, plus J.O. hopefully returning, plus up to three free agents joining the team, Doc will be asked to incorporate up to six new players. He's going to have to do this in 26 games (or, in the case of free agents, in even less time). We've heard Doc and various players say in the past that the Celtics sets aren't easy to learn, either on offense or defense. It's going to be hard for these guys to become proficient in the Xs-and-Os of the system. Even worse, though, the Celts will be losing that almost telepathic connection that comes from a lineup that has learned to play together. Like a married couple that can finish each others' sentences, the Celtics have learned to cover for each other. These are things that can't be taught.
Perhaps as important as on-court chemistry is the stuff in the locker room. Perk was an extremely popular player, and Nate seemed to be, as well. Will the five new guys fit in in the same way? Jeff Green by all indications is a good guy, but will he bring the toughness and leadership that Perk did? Will the new players learn to adjust to the eccentricities of KG, Rondo, and Ray -- all of whom can at times be difficult teammates -- as well as the departing players did? They very well may, but it's no guarantee. (Indeed, the fact that the Celtics vets were reportedly "livid" with the trade can't be a good sign for the future.) At the very least, Doc is going to have to earn his pay check doing some mending in the locker room that wasn't previously necessary.
In an ideal world, Shaq fills 90% of Perk's role, Krstic and the buyouts improve our bench, and Jeff Green morphs into James Posey. However, I can't help but think that the best thing for this team would have been to trade Marquis and Semih for Anthony Parker, while rolling with the other existing championship pieces. Danny had a team that believed it could beat anybody in the world, and it was in need of minor tweaks, rather than an overhaul. Instead, Danny seemingly got caught up a little bit in dreaming about the future, and forgot how important it was to maximize this team's strength in the present. This was a team that was good enough to win a championship. Whether they still are today is now an open question.
836 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
very good post
When you add 5 new players into the system with less than 30 games left, ubuntu is near impossible to achieve. The Celtics are all about being together as a family, but that’s broken now.
keep it in the family -
danny likely knows things we don’t – perhaps perk is hurt more than we know (hope he passes his physical) – - i have faith in the man that was instrumental in hanging banner 17 -
.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
I think Perk's knees are in worse shape than advertised...
He came back from the knee injury faster than anyone expected…and yet, he went back down with another knee injury just a few weeks into his return.
You have to assume that Ainge knows something that the rest of us don’t.
Maybe...
But OKC has pretty astute management, as well, and they just gave up Green, Krstic, a #1, and took on salary for Perk. He’s got some value.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
No question about it.
But Ainge saw the value for his team getting Green higher than Perk. For OKC, who’s only major weakness was a tough interior defender, and has Ibaka who can step in for Green and have that team not miss a beat, Perkins value couldn’t have been higher.
Hollinger had it right (shocking, I know) it made sense for both teams.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
if his knees were bad then we didn't really have to worry about losing him then did we?
a physical would have revealed that at season end and we could have resigned him for something doable…you can’t have it both ways
Is it Soup Yet?
yeah, I don't like the 'his knees are bad' argument
any more than ’he’s not really that good’ arguments.
Both are just off base. We didn’t trade Perk away because he sucked or was damaged goods. We traded him away because he was a valuable asset that we could afford to trade because (in Danny’s view) we had a surplus of talent at that spot. And because we had a compelling shortage of talent at the SF spot.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I beg to differ - an idiot's take on the trade.
This post substitutes subjective sentimentality for objective reality! Like most of you, I love Perk, but from a business perspective, Danny’s moves are solid here… Roy puts too much emphasis on locker room chemistry without discussing the equally important managerial processes that have been put in place over the past 6 years by the Ainge/Doc regime. It is thaose processes that enabled Shaq, Sermih, Harangody, et al, to fit into our system rather quickly. Nate Robinson’s positive “Donkey” buffoonery not withstanding, his locker room impact is practically nil. In fact, he was one of the players who had trouble learning our system.
I just don’t see how adding 5 new players is supposed to make ubuntu near impossible to achieve. Ubuntu is a concept, not something that is embodied by any single individual, it can survive any particular player or group of players. The processes that the Cs have put in place will take care of integrating the new players into our system (unfortunately, the importance of processes is not appreciated, but without processes systems would not work. – for example, we can have the best cars, best drivers, and best roads system, but unless everyone motorist agrees that red light means stop, and drives on the right side of the street, we would have mayhem on our roads. That’s how important processes are to making any system work. Processes are the thing you can see or touch, but without processes, you got nothing).
Danny has it right, the Cs have been doing without Perk for some months now, so he’s had an opportunity to see what the Cs would look like without Perk in the mix. His thinking about the future is also spot on, and I think his decisions have been informed by his own experiences on the Celtics back in the 80s. There’s no one better qualified to make these strategic moves than Danny given the uniqueness of his experiences. We don’t
The look of a team can always change, that should be expected and planned for. Keeping the same look does not even guarantee anything because players get older, break down, retire etc. So better plan for it than just let nature takes it course.
Will the team miss a beat without the traded players? Of course! But the team did miss beats occasionally even with those players around, so that point is a weak argument to make. Is it important for teams to be relevant? Absolutely! Thus I disagree with Roy’s assertion that it is irrelevant to be relevant unless you win the NBA championship; one of many benefits of being relevant is that you attract quality players as a consequence. From PJ Brown to Shaq, some players chose to come to Boston because we had become relevant. Relevance creates possibilities for the ultimate goal of winning the trophy
How about chemistry? Well, we acquired a bunch of players last off season – Shaq, Sermih, Luke, J.O – all of whom have featured in games for the Cs, and that didn’t affect chemistry. And before Nate came to Boston, the knock against him was that he was not a good influence in the locker room. Having 5 new guys will of course require some adjustment, but again, I go back to the processes management had perfected over 6 years to integrate players into our system is more important than we might realize.
Where I do agree with Roy is that this team has taken a small step backwards in terms of win now. But it is also possible that they will rally to win it all once the initial “mourning” period is over. One can only hope that it passes by quickly.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 8:19 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
FURTHER -
I get upset to read that the players are LIVID -
KG is making $18,832,044 this season ALONE – there’s no need to be LIVID
Fans, sure – I was as shocked as anyone, but as it set in, I became okay with it – Danny has the team’s best interests at heart – and I trust him.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
the word "livid" was Adrian Wojnarowski's word
I suspect “upset” and “sad” and “disappointed” are more apt words to describe the reactions I saw in interviews. And all those are perfectly reasonable.
I agree, this was Danny thinking about the best interests in the team now and in the future and I think this was a brilliant move – though we do need to wait to see how these last few pieces fall into place.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
The Yahoo yahoos are overreacting
This move makes sense. Greg Anthony has the most reasonable take that I have seen. Dwyer and Woj like lividness for lividness sake. I love Perk’s play, but he is gimpy and not 100%. For all the chemistry class notions, he is by all indications was show-me-the-money this summer. I like the deal.
by Gabby Hartnett Where are You? on Feb 25, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
By "all indications"?
Like what ones? He talked repeatedly about coming back to Boston, told his wife he couldn’t leave, and seemed receptive to $7.5 million per season. He may have left, but I don’t think he was going to the highest bidder, necessarily.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Okay, by some indications
including that he even had to tell his wive that, and OKC puts him back near his Beaumont roots. How did he seem receptive? I am not crazy about the deal, but I understand it. Doc seems to be at least as excited as Danny—especially about having the Posey-like options to the offense. I certainly don’t think this is all Danny or a “folly” by any means.
by Gabby Hartnett Where are You? on Feb 25, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Corrections
Processes are the thing you can see or touch, but without processes, you got nothing
I meant to say… Processes are the thing you CANNOT see or touch, but without processes, you got nothing.
We don’t
My unfinished thought, should read… We don’t know what these managers know about Perk’s health. His shoulder issue was the reason I was all for him being traded two years ago. They may know more than we do. the deal they made looks good on paper. Of course, we will see how it all works out on the court.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
+1
A bit of the present was sacrificed for a bit of the future. But do they want to win now or later?
I don't think integrating new players into the team has been perfected in any manner...
Every mid-season addition we’ve made has struggled statistically compared to their previous norms, including Cassell, Nate, Starbury, Moore, and even Brown. It’s hard incorporating new talent into the mix on the floor, let alone in the locker room.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Good point., but....
I agree with your premise, yes, it is hard, that’s why so many teams get it wrong. But I think with each successive year, we get better with the integration process. PJ, Cassell et al feels like eons ago. Nate’s is more recent, so let’s talk about that… The question is, was the difficulty in integrating him into our system due to Nate’s own issue or was it a reflection on the Cs system? I believe the former is true in that Nate was the problem. In fact, the Celtics system can be credited with actually taking a troublesome guy and making him fit into our system. Let’s not forget who Nate was before he came to Boston:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4679727
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicklehead_qwguEsDku1kKMjDJiP0WTN
It may have taken a bit longer than usual, but credit Boston’s system and management with making Nate the matured player that he is today.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Thank you
for showing me that I’m not the only one who is thinking through this without emotion. Stop weeping, people! Step back and think about this before you make a decision—there’s still more to come! It’s the whole Randy Moss situation all over again…
by FlippingtheBIRD on Feb 25, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
And how far did Randy Moss' team go lat year? Oh that's right, they didn't even make the playoffs.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Apples to Oranges bro.
And the Patriots were a better team without Moss, they happened to win 14 games last season.
But a young defense showed it’s true stripes, and some untimely and uncharacteristic mistakes from Brady kept points off the board.
So ya, if we want to compare them, FTB is right, severe visceral reaction based purely on emotion. Time will judge it in the end.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Actully, my point was...
…that the Patriots first round exit has nothing to do with Randy Moss, nor was the Titans not making the playoffs Randy Moss’ fault. We put way too much into a single individual player even when we’re talking about TEAM sports. LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, and even Michael Jordan all found out the hard way that they could not win championships by themselves. I recall a game – Bulls vs Celtics – where the young Jordan touched the Celtics for 60 points and the Bulls still lost that game.
Perkins is no Jordan, LeBron or Kobe. He is an important piece that has been made better by the other talents surrounding him. We’ve seen what the Celtics were able to do with and without him. That doesn’t mean he will not be missed. But it also doesn’t mean his absence dooms the Celtics by any means.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
A more apt parallel would probably be Lawyer Milloy
Like Perk, Milloy was a very much loved and respected veteran teammate. Like Perk, he was shockingly, unexpectedly traded – in his case right before the start of the 2003 season. Just 5 days. All the fans and the pundits across the land screamed and cried and said the Patriots would suffer from broken chemistry and would fall to pieces. When the Patriots promptly got smacked down 31-0 by the very team they had traded Milloy to, they all seemed correct.
ESPN’s Tom Jackson famously asserted, “The Patriot players hate their coach!”
Well, as we all know, that was total BS. Jackson was and is an idiot. The players did not hate their coach. And they did not crumble to pieces due to broken team chemistry. After stumbling for the one game against Buffalo, they tore through the league and won the 2nd of their three SuperBowls.
The Patriots did that because they knew and practiced Ubuntu before it was a word Celtics fans all started chanting. A team is more than any one player. It was more than Lawyer Milloy. The team was everybody still in that locker-room wearing the colors.
By the middle of next week, after the 1st, we’ll have a list of players who will be wearing The Green. And THAT is who our team is going to be. They have to suck it up and play for each other.
Mourne the brothers you have lost and don’t forget them. But live and fight for the ones that you have.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
This right here is why 18 this season most likely went out the door
I think it is near impossible to remake a team into a championship team in 25 games. If Doc does it, it will be the coaching job of the century.
Sweet.
Then why are you still here?
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Sorry, didn't know disagreeing with Danny was not allowed
I hate when the unofficial board police are all over the place
Complete allowed.
But all you do is throw doom and gloom. “This sucks, danny sucks, we can’t win, championship is over” if you want to debate the trade, make some valid arguments, go ahead. But the doom and gloom gets annoying, so I’d prefer if all you want to do is come on here and scream “Danny sucks Boston is screwed!” That you just go away.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Why is doom and gloom not ok?
I think his perspective is as valid as any other. It may be pessimistic, but he can cite historical evidence to back up his position just as well as any optimistic commenter can do the same.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks, love ya too bro.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Well if you feel annoyed by people expressing how they feel then maybe
You should stay away!!
What's with this thing of showing people the door?
We can disagree without being disagreeable.
Exactly!
Having different perspectives is what makes discussions fun. I wouldn’t want to only be around people who all agree all the time. In fact we can use more differing viewpoints here.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Hey it's a start, right?
Very soon we’ll be chugging beer together :)
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
just wait and see...
anything’s possible!!!!!
by jaimsitecom on Feb 25, 2011 9:50 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Pierce's thoughts
“You just hope [Celtics president of basketball operations] Danny [Ainge] and Doc know what they’re doing,” said Pierce. “We put our trust in them, so it is what it is. We can’t use any excuses and cry over spilled milk. So, hopefully the guys we have coming in understand what we’re trying to do around here. It’s still a championship goal.”
“To me, [chemistry is] everything,” said Pierce. "It doesn’t matter what type of talent you bring in or what type of talent you have on your ball club; people underrate what chemistry brings.
“This is one of the tightest units, one of the most together teams that you could probably think of, especially because we’ve been together for so many years, it’s just a number of things. How we roll on the plane, in the hotel, the camaraderie that we’ve been able to gather over the years. And, when you lose that, it’s tough. So, hopefully we can integrate the guys that we’ve got coming in and they can pick up things pretty quickly and make the adjustment [in] lifestyle to just how we are off the court.”
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
That’s sobering, but it sounds like they are prepping themselves to make the change and stay on course. As you would expect out of professionals.
Exactly.
I still have concerns about Rondo. He’s much younger and doesn’t understand the business as well yet, he hasn’t been through this before. It’s telling to me that he declined interviews after the game last night, when the other guys spoke. I think he’s having a hard time, understandably so. I just hope they can keep him on track and get through this.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
He's 24
He’s not a bewildered 10 years old kid
by OsirusCeltics on Feb 25, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
24 is very young for the NBA.
And this a situation he’s never been through before.
Just saying I’m concerned, I still have faith (or is it “Blind faith”? Jeff, Po?) that he’ll be fine, but I’m definitely more concern about the effect on Rondo than the rest of the guys.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Huh?
You mean Rondo didn’t see half our core leave us in that trade during draft day that brought us KG and Ray Allen? That sounds like an example of Rondo being through this before to me.
He hadn't built the kind of relationship with those guys, that he has with Perk over the past 4 years.
And longer really, Rondo just lost his closest friend on this team. So no, he’s never went through that before.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
It can't be called broken
Until our guys show it’s gone. It’s possible that these guys are gonna rally around this.
That being said, Ainge did the wrong move in my eyes. The microclimate we had was fantastic.
Last night's game is a prelude of things to come....
by Ol' Green Boyz on Feb 25, 2011 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
What? The Celtics are going to play the rest of their games with just 9 players?
And maybe call up a different D-Leaguer each game to play key rotation minutes?
And play all their games on the road?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Good post, Roy
But I have a few quibbles, not the least of which is, the consummate professionalism and leadership of players like the Big Three (and their coach) are what helped make the Celtics so successful. Hopefully they’ll help get them through what’s going to be a challenging transition period. I’d add I don’t recall Allen ever being a difficult teammate. Ever. That said, while I’m trying to keep an open mind on this one and see very intriguing upside, my heart is with the overall tone of your column, and that is that Ainge may have panicked on this one. One thing is clear: the Celtics, under Danny Ainge, will never be boring.
The professionalism will help...
… but this trade will at the very least be a temporary setback. The team was noticeably down last night, and I’m hoping that that doesn’t linger.
As for Ray, there have been multiple reports about how his “borderline OCD” and perfectionism has caused him to have clashes with his teammates. They’re not major things, but all of the “big three” talked about how they needed to adapt to each other.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Rondo is my biggest worry.
The veterans will be ok, Paul, KG, and Ray have been through stuff like this before, it’s not their first trip to the rodeo. It’ll take a week to adjust, they’ll be hurt, and then they’ll get right back to work.
But Rondo is young, he hasn’t experienced this kind of upheavel in a locker room before, and he was closer to Perk than anyone else on that team. There are going to be some serious fences to mend for Doc and Danny in order to keep Rondo checked in with this team.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Just conjecture really.
I could be wrong about it all. But I don’t think it’s a stretch to say you’d be more worried about a young player, who just lost his best friend, than an old player who’s been around the block, and then went around again.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
So wait wait
What about those deals that infact did bring in KG and Ray, and sent out guys like Delonte West, Al Jefferson, and Ryan Gomes?
See above, where you said the same thing.
Different relationship. Perk was his best friend on that team, it was widely known. So no, Rondo has never in his career went through a situation where he lost his closest friend like this.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
'Hasn't lost his closest friend.
’Lost having his closest friend be his coworker.
‘Not saying it doesn’t hurt. But its not like they aren’t still going to be friends! :-D
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Buying out players???
I don’t quite understand the concept of buying out players after the trade deadline. Can someone please explain????
by Ambar Srivastava on Feb 25, 2011 4:25 AM EST reply actions
Teams have players on their rosters they have no use for. To save a little money or do a player/agent a favor, they will pay the player an agreed upon amount and the contract effectively ends. If those players are bought out before a certain date (I think it’s usually March 1, but not sure about that), they are eligible to be on playoff rosters; if after that date, they can still be signed by other teams but wouldn’t be allowed to play in the playoffs.
Yes, March 1st is the date.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I totally agree
This trade doesn’t make sense to me no matter how much I think about it. We needed 1 SF to fill a hole in the roster from an injury, nothing more. Who knows how chemistry will be affected from this, Rondo not speaking to the media tonight says enough about how the players feel. I just don’t get this move, really made me a lot less optimistic about the rest of the season and playoffs, I just hope that turns out to be unfounded.
by Josh88 on Feb 25, 2011 4:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Agree
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
We started out the day as championship favorites, and instead of fixing one real but not gaping hole with Parker or Butler, Danny blew it up.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
I Still Think
That I am in shock from what has happened today. I left my class today knowing the recent updates that it looked like we were trading Daniels and a pick and probably Erden for Parker. I was content, we got the wing and didn’t give up too much. I drove home in a great mood, only to have my day spoiled when I turned on my computer and found we had traded Perk. I didn’t get it. I’ve calmed down some, but I am still confused by the sudden change of a goal here. If we wanted to work on the future, why did we resign Ray Allen and rebuild our core. I don’t get it. Jeff Green I think will be good here, but I don’t know if he makes us better now, which was the whole point of getting depth in the offseason and building a championship team to make a run this year and maybe next year. Ugh. We better get a good buyout player, my dream scenario would be Dalembert, but thats extremely unlikely.
As much as any player on this team, Perk WAS Celtic Basketball
The chemistry is going to be a major problem going forward. I’m not sure they can overcome it, as professional as they should be or are.
Perk was/is a brother to these guys. He’s been through too many battles to count.
Now its gone. Can they get it back.
I’m suspect.
by KG's Knee on Feb 25, 2011 4:54 AM EST via mobile reply actions
morphs into posey?
jeff green is twice the talent of posey… i believe he’ll be pierce’s successor eventually
imagine a more physical odom with consistent 3pt shot...
plus once he buys into our team defense, he’ll be even more deadly overall
Actually he's not as consistent with the 3 point shot
Only about 30% from downtown with 4 attempts per game.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."
- Bill Russell
by Marjun Raposon on Feb 25, 2011 5:04 AM EST up reply actions
That's just this year: .304 for the 3
In the kid’s young 4-year career, including this year, he’s shot .338 for the 3—and he’s still only 24.
Yes I was talking about this season, .304 is the number I was looking for.
Hopefully his 3PT attempts per game lessens as he picks his spot better with us so that his % will come up.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."
- Bill Russell
by Marjun Raposon on Feb 25, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
True, but as clover said.
He’s a better shooter over his career, and shot nearly 40% for 3 just two years ago (.387 in 2009.) So he’s perfectly capable from beyond the arc.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
The fact that he's shot so many threes
is a by-product of OKC’s mis-use of him. They’ve used him (wasted him, imho) by using him as a stretch-4 whose primary purpose is to screen space and stretch the floor for Durant and Westbrook.
For analogy: Think about Sheed last year. Because of man-power issues, we kept having Sheed rollout off screens in order to stretch the floor. And unfortunately if the ball ended up in his hands with just seconds to go, he’d (per Doc’s orders) take those damn shot-clock-threes that we all hated. That is the same thing that has been happening to Green. He is being mis-used.
His more optimal position is as an SF working from the top of the key in and posting up …. you know, the exact same game we expect from Paul Pierce!
In his splits as an SF, Green is much more effective because he is bigger (6’ 9", 235lb) yet extremely athletic and fast. In the 2nd unit, he will be playing Pierce’s roll and be a primary scoring option instead of the last-ditch guy. He’ll be posting up and driving inside more instead of rolling outside and taking shot-clock-threes. He’ll get to the FT line more as well. Green has the ability to play defense at the 2, 3 & 4.
On the Celtics, we should primarily want Green to play SF, as sub for Pierce, except when we go all small, in which case he’ll play PF (with KG at C). This will be a MUCH better use of Green’s skills and athleticism.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
He is a lot closer to Posey than Odom
Maybe a shorter Odom without the rebounding, outside shooting, or efficiency.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
34% from 3 on his career.
With a nearly 39% number in 2009, ya. He has not outside shot huh?
He also averages about 6 boards a game. Not huge numbers, but not exactly nothing, for a guy who we’ll be using as a 3/4 wing player backing up Pierce and in those “small ball” line ups that Doc absolutely loved in 08 when he had Posey.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Yeah, his team role will be similar to Posey
except he’s a MUCH better player. Taller, faster, stronger.
Like Posey, he’s also a very high-character guy. Smart and well liked by his teammates.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
What i worry about
With the Posey comparisons, is he going to be expected to shoot 3s? A small PF to me, is going to need to do that, I’d say. Which does not play to Green’s strengths.
As has been said in this thread a few times.
But is getting pretty big, so easy to miss.
Green is a very capable 3-pt shooter, he’s struggling a bit this year (around 30%) but over his career is about 35% from deep, and had at least one really great year under his belt in 2008, when he hit nearly 40% of his 3s.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Eh
Your numbers appear off. One year he shot 39%, career wise he is under 34%. So far one good year, 2.5 pretty bad years. He was also awful in hte playoffs last year shooting under 30% while taking 4.5 3 pt attempts per game. He’s just not a good 3 pt shooter at this point.
Wow, I was 1% off on both accounts.
I sincerely apologize, can you ever accept my apology?
Career 34 instead of 35, 09 39 instead of 40… whatever was I thinking.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
You don’t have to be sarcastic. My main point is slightly below 34% isn’t good. Sure he had one good year, that doesn’t make him a capable 3pt shooter. Right now he’s trending towards the opposite of that.
It's league average.
Which to me, is exactly what I would describe as “capable” but I suppose that all depends on your definition then.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
For those who like stats too.
He has a very respectable +14 PER, if that means anything at all to anyone (not sure it does, but whatever.)
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
League average is 36%. Regardless, me personally, I’ve never thought of a 34% shooter as someone I want taking 3s as a regular part of his game. Hopefully this is all a moot point, and Doc will have him going to the basket and getting to the free throw line.
The, we can agree on.
Here here.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Let's be clear about what has been going on with Mr. Green.
OKC has been playing Green at PF 80% of the time this year, and only 16% of the time at his natural position, SF because they like to put Durant there (naturally).
When he plays SF, his splits are dramatically better in almost all categories because he goes from being a slightly undersized PF to being an oversized SF – but with no speed or quickness disadvantage.
Returning to his role as a PF with OKC. OKC runs their offense overwhelmingly through Durant and Westbrook – those guys’ utilization numbers are through the roof. So Green was more and more used as a ‘stretch 4’ – setting screens and rolling outside to make room for Durant/Westbrook to attack. This left Green as a kickout, last-option on offense, often taking the outside shot as the clock would expire.
This has killed his shooting numbers this year. He’s also rarely been getting to the line in this offense when playing ‘stretch PF’ because his stuck outside looking in. Almost all of his FT attempts have occurred while he has been playing SF instead because in the SF spot he posts-up and drives to the hoop.
What we should expect to happen is that when Green comes to the Celtics, he will be expected to play the majority of his minutes as SF, backing up Pierce. In our offense, he’ll be expected to do many of the things Pierce does – post up smaller SFs and use his speed and athleticism to attack the hoop. He’s 6’ 9" and 235lb with quickness and is also a very good passer. He’s got superior length for an SF, but is slightly under for a PF – and doesn’t have the massive bulk to make up for that like BBD does.
OKC got 6’ 10" Ibaka to play PF and that’s a better fit for them for what they want out of PF. Green is a great player who has simply been mis-utilized in their system.
Green should be a perfect fit for us in our system.
He’ll still be expected to shoot the 3 on occasion, but it should (on the 2nd team) be as a primary target of the play so should be based on the play generating an open look, rather than as a last-second bail out.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
made up statistic?
he’s shooting 30% last time I checked nba.com
THE SKY IS FALLING! oh wait it’s just raining out.
Chemistry is my only issue with this trade, assuming that the big 4 don’t go into a long bout of depression I think this trade makes us much better.
people making perkins out to be super star don’t realize how much he benefited from the system he played in. He is slow, a terrible finisher, and a poor FT shooter. He’s an avg shot blocker, and frankly an avg rebounder for his size. We all love him for his work ethic and helping us win a title, but ya’ll are making him out to something he’s not. To try and claim our championship hopes hinged completely on perkins is lunacy. Yes yes we say last year’s game 7 would have been different with perk. Well it would also have been different if KG was on two healthy legs, we had shaq, JO, and Kristic as well.
"Take it to the hoop, there's a dance involved." - DJ Tommy
by WillyBeamin on Feb 25, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Completely.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Exactly...
you’d think after reading most of the reactions here, that we just traded away the second coming of Olajawon. Love Perk but the fans really overrate his contributions to this team.
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 25, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Let’s not fall into the “sour grapes” syndrome.
Our chances of a title this year took a big hit, but objectively, Green is waaaay better than Posey ever dreamed of being.
A Rondo/Bradley/Green/Baby group is something to build on.
But our title hopes definitely took a hit.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
They take a big hit if Shaq isn't healthy for the playoffs.
That is true, and there’s obviously some real risk there.
But if Shaq is healthy, honestly, the first 40 games of the year, this team was better with him on the court than they’ve ever looked with Perk. And that’s just the truth.
I love Perk, but he was not the sole reason we were going to win a Championship this year.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
We will miss Perk`s defense, bulk, toughness....
We will not miss his offense or injuries.
As long as the new additions to the roster hustle and put team first, there will be no “chemistry issue”.
Yea seriously
People seemed to love SHeed, but depending on who you ask, he was compromising our chemistry cause he was supposedly lazy on defense and just “chucked up 3’s” on offense.
If anyone has any indication that Krstic or Green may do either, then you have a case.
I was expecting just a small move too. I hate to see Perk go but it is what it is.
We can’t do anything but hope for the best and trust that Danny has more moves up in his sleeve.
I hope everything will be good after the dust settle.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."
- Bill Russell
Da has made some bad moves in the past. But this may be a good move. The c’s are 41-14 without kp
by vgarcia890 on Feb 25, 2011 8:24 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
so is signing JO a big or small move?
Cos he certainly got that one wrong
On balance, I like what Danny has done...
… but even some of his big moves have been poor. For instance, the Antoine trade — and taking back Raef’s contract — was a pretty large mistake, even if I understood Danny’s reasoning. Luckily, we came out of that one okay, although we did have to surrender a lottery pick to get out from under one year of Raef’s contract.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
It could be worse. We could’ve been sitting with just 1 small forward going into playoffs. Now we have some backups going into the playoffs.
Yes, JO is a wrong move. Yes, the Antoine trade didn’t pan out. But DA got the best player in this trade. I think we’ll be ok and we can’t judge until after the season is over
Warrior, battles...a lot of drama
I think you´re exxagerating quite a bit here. I mean,, telepathic connection? They won a championship in their first year together. Ubuntu is a mindset, not an exclusive advantage this group had over other teams. And to be honest, I haven´t seen a whole lot of Perk´s “leadership” on the court. Perk was a part of last year´s team, too, and that group wasn´t screaming Ubuntu, either
Don´t get me wrong, you make a valid point. Winning a title now is definitely the priority over concerns about the future. But the sad truth is, and I know that´s the hard part for life-long fans to accept, Perk was simply the most expendable from our core. Perk has not a single skill that makes him invaluable, or that can´t be offset by his replacements.
I don´t like Krstic, but he´s a superior offensive player to Perk, and that´s really not that hard. By all accounts,
Perk wanted to earn a big paycheck this offseason, and that was simply not going to happen, since there´s a) a new CBA on the horizon and b) he´s just not worth a lot of money. Even under the current CBA, 7 million is the absolute max a player of his quality should earn per year, in my opinion.
Redz said it best in one of those “blame Danny” threads. Ainge took a calculated risk, and they pay him the big bucks to make the hard decisions. Perk could´ve left us in the off-season, but Danny would still be here and would have to deal with the consequences.
We are not done,yet, and are now a player in the buyout market, which makes any assessment of Danny´s moves incomplete at this point in time, anyway.
Maybe the new space on the roster allows us to get a guy like Troy Murphy. I know I´d rather see him in green than on the Miami Heat.
But please, let us wait with the melodramatic expressions until we actually lose a playoff series. Because, by all indications, we are still a very strong team with a great win-loss record this season, with or without Perk.
by Casperian on Feb 25, 2011 5:09 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I disagree ONLY with "he's not worth a lot of money"
The fact is, he’s worth what the owners will pay him and based on last year’s numbers (see Haywood, Brendan) he’ll almost certainly get paid a lot of money, probably in excess of $8M per year.
In other words, the problem isn’t that Perk is not worth a lot of money. The problem is that he IS worth a lot of money.
So the question isn’t whether he is worth that money. The question is whether paying that much for him works for the Celtics. Danny has a cap number to worry about going forward.
As a restricted FA, we’d have the right to match, but the ultimate price would be set by other teams. OKC sources have indicated that even without this trade they were going to go hard after Perk this summer. And so, apparently was Miami. That almost guarantees that Perk’s price would go way up.
Now, one option is to wait for that to happen and then do a sign & trade to get value back then.
However, in addition to worrying about the cap hit, Danny also had to think about THIS year. And he had a glaring hole in the roster where Marquis used to be.
When presented with the ability to fill this hole with a player of the caliber of Jeff Green, and not drop off too much at the C position by adding Krstic – it all becomes a no-brainer.
By doing this trade, Danny has lost a little at the C position (which may get shored completely back up, depending on remaining moves) but gained dramatically at the SF position. Plus he’s also got more chips for the future than before the trade because not only are Krstic and Green both young enough to play key roles in the post-KG world, but he also picked up the protected Clippers pick.
By the end of the buyout FA signings, this team will be significantly stronger for this year AND for the future than it was just 24 hours ago.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Sounds like you have an inside line on who they are going to sign
What if Miami, Orlando, the Knicks, etc. get the guys that you think Danny is going to get? I think it is safer to wait and see, and that right now the team is weaker than it was. IF they sign the right guys, the team may be stronger, but that it to be seen.
But Danny has that inside
and he´s the one who made that decision.
Semantics, but I have to agree
You are right, he´s worth whatever an owner wants to pay for him. You´re also right that this little fact does play a role.
Let me rephrase that:
Considering the cap (as you mentioned above), he´s not worth such a significant percentage of our cap space.
danny has no choice but to let perk go,
i understand we all get hurt b0ut the trade..celtics fans and the c’s players have a c0mm0n b0nd wre lyk family here..but u must have 2 understand perk wants a taste of free angency. Chances 0f getting dat 18 is stil there as l0ng as danny fill the empty r0ster sp0ts wid buy0uts lots 0f candidates in a buy0ut..you have camby, parker, hamilt0n, etc. h0pe danny can pull it 0ff. Danny b0i is ryt even with0ut perk and wid all th0se injuries the c’s can stil pull 0ut a win the c’s d0esnt give up they have da hart of the champi0n. N0w lets jst pray shaq and J..0. wil get healthy c0me play0ffs time. Chances of 18 is stil there wre n0t d0ne this year yet.
Of course Danny had a choice
He could have kept Perk, acquired Anthony Parker, and still had two open roster spots. We coulr have dealt with Perk in the offseason, including signing him to a bargain deal, or dealing him to another team in a S&T. Instead, Danny focused on the future, and put all his eggs into the O’Neal Brothers basket. I worry that 26 games isn’t enough time to become as good as we already were, let alone better.
When Doc was asked whether this trade makes us better he said “We’ll see”. That’s not the type of reaction I want when the team was previously the title favorite.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
The unsaid thing here is:
What’s up with Perk’s health? Did the MCL injury convince Danny that like Shaq and JO Perk will be out every other game?
TP for the Stipanovich reference
next time I “see” you over in the forums. I was trying to think of him the other day.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
I think you are wrong
They can’t sign both Baby and Perkins, so they went with Baby. I think it’s the right move.
Was the off-season that important?
Why couldn’t we play out the season to make that decision? The only consideration for the team should be winning a title this year. The “future” and free agency should have been dealt with in July, when we still would have had the right to sign-and-trade Perk.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
No, I'd say the only one
Titles are rare; teams need to grab them when they can. I know a lot of folks are hung up on the elusive “future”, but chances are we’re in for another painful rebuilding process, with or without Jeff Green.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
They could have kept Perk and BBD
and then let them both walk, with marginal talent that’s usually the best option – see James Posey, overall I’m glad we let him walk.
Well
I’m not sure our title chances took a hit by trading Perk. I just put up a fan post arguing that they aren’t: <http://www.celticsblog.com/2011/2/25/2014643/ainges-thinking>
Sign-and-trade?
I’d rather have our backup SF now if it meant we got another competent center in the trade. Oh look, Nenad Krstic. Yes, Perkins is a better defender than him, but he has nothing on Krstic’s offense. Oh, and we got a pick. 1st round one, too. It was either we Perkins or we trade him for something now this year. I wouldn’t feel half as good if we didn’t win this year THEN traded him for guys we coulda used this year.
Overall, if all you’re truly worried about is whether we get Banner 18 or not….we may not know about that until the playoffs. I mean, we could still do very well for the rest of the regular season with Krstic and Green and whoever we may get in a buyout, and probably should. If that happens, are you gonna spin that into “it won’t matter in the playoffs when we gotta face so and so, who has so and so, who will kill so and so on our team”?
We still have the Big 3. I can’t go on another site and speak well of Rondo without someone reminding me of Rondo doing well because of them. It’s almost shocking people around the league respect Perk’s defense that much to ignore his offensive efficiencies, considering the criticism Rondo gets for his shooting, even though he does everything else well for a PG. Now, assuming Krstic starts, Rondo gets to play with another guy who can spread the floor (and people may not cringe when he takes a shot instead of BBD), opening up more lanes for him to drive to the hoop or even just to operate.
Assuming Krstic is off the bench for assumingly Shaq, then paired with Green, we have a bench of West/Wafer/Green/BBD/Krstic that can all spread the floor, and guys in Wafer and Green that can drive to the hoop, heck even West can at times.
What makes you think Danny didn’t consider this year when making this trade? At least let us wait and see as the possibilities play out with our new additions.
Nenad Krstic is not the answer...
Our entire defense is predicated on having strong defenders in the middle to stop penetration. Krstic is not, and never has been, a good defender. The marginal upgrade in offense isn’t going to make up for the defensive deficiencies.
Green has the chance to be a really good fit, but I’d rather have Perk/Parker than Krstic/Green. Parker is less dynamic, but he’s a better shooter and at least as good of a defender.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
A bargain deal?
Roy, how can you guarantee what deal we could have signed with Perk?
As to Doc’s reaction to the trade, what did you think he was going to say? Doc and Danny have been playing this good cop bad cop shtick to perfection, and it is still working. Danny does a deal that players don’t like, Doc reacts as if he agrees with the players perspective, but has it occurred to anyone that this may be intentional to give players the impression he’s sympathetic to their feelings? Do you really think Ainge is acting totally without River’s knowledge? These two guys have figured out how to win off the court before winning on the court. Give them a little credit.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't guarantee anything...
My quote: “. . . signing him to a bargain deal, or dealing him to another team in a S&T”. In other words, Danny could have chosen option A, and if it wasn’t available, then move on to Option B.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Sign and trade only really has value.
If you have another capped team who will look to pay him more than they can afford under their own cap, allowing you to use the bird rights to sign him to a larger deal, and move him.
It’s unlikely, any team willing to put up the kind of money that Boston wasn’t (anything over 8mil, more than likely) would also be looking to add any considerable assets to that deal to buy Boston’s cooperation.
Meaning, in a sign and trade, you’re lucky to get anything more than maybe a weak 1st round pick. If Ainge had any inclination he would not sign Perk, waiting for a sign and trade was the worst thing he could do. Rather than a weak pick + trade exception, he just got two very good player and a very good 1st round pick of the Clippers. I’d say that’s a considerably better deal.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Again...
The present is more important than the future. I would have worried about Perk walking when the time came. Also, if rebuilding for 2012 is the goal, then a $8 – $10 million trade exception and draft picks isn’t such a bad thing.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
And again...
If Danny can swing a trade that can do both, then it is his duty.
The “this team can be better now, and in the future by this trade” argument admittedly relies on the health of the Oneals, and is a risk without doubt. But if it works, he’ll have accomplish a great thing. He’ll have done exactly what we’d all want from him, exactly what you want from any GM of the team you love, do whatever it takes to make the team better both now, and in the future.
You can’t fault him for trying to do that, whether or not it works. That’s his job.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I guess people will just have to agree to disagree at this point and see who gets to say ‘I told you so’. :) To early to say what the verdict on Ainge’s decision. Management knows more regarding the health of the O’neals than any of us that they’d be willing to part ways with the Perk and Semih. They also saw that we did quite well with Perk not on the line up. Still have the buy outs we can look at as well with the 3 roster spots available. Its not the end of the world, certainly not the end of the goal for #18 this year.
Perk was a huge loss, but not something the team can’t adjust to. And with Robinson, sure he brings that ‘energy’, but he just takes that energy back out with the poor shot selection and decision making. He shot himself out of this team.
And to say this season was already over like majority in this blog did, wow, just.. wow.. Don’t we still have KG, Allen, Pierce and Rondo? As long as there are games to be played, #18 is never impossible.
by thatswhatshesaid23 on Feb 25, 2011 5:24 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Well said...
it’s like there are more people ready to jump now than when KG got hurt earlier this year. As long as the Big 4 are healthy I still love our chances this year to win #18.
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 25, 2011 5:33 AM EST up reply actions
Nobody is saying its impossible...
… just less likely than it was yesterday. Do you agree or disagree?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Disagree
Though it depends on a couple of things. If we play Orlando in the playoffs, we could be hobbled. But I don’t think we will. The Heat, who have an easy sked and a bunch of home games, will get the first seed and so will play fourth seed Orlando in the second round, and beat them.
Which means we get Chicago in Round 2.
And this trade, actually really helps us match up with Chicago. So if you’re right, good.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I think so
I just put up a fan post explaining, and defending, what I think Ainge was thinking: http://www.celticsblog.com/2011/2/25/2014643/ainges-thinking
Oh lol
We’re already saying we’ll be the #2 or #3 seed when we’re still the #1 seed? Come on, man. Let some games be played first.
Again, why can't people have opinions that differ?
I think the Celts will end up with the 3 seed behind Miami and Chicago. Now I guess everyone jumps on me because the only right thing to say is the Celtics will be number 1, this is a great trade, and the Celtics will win #18.
I think
he was responding to me, someone who is in favor of the trade. And I agree with you. The Celtics will be second or third. Which is fine. I’m not worried about home court.
Yes, I was responding to you
And I don’t know what I said that implied to vinnie that people can’t have opinions that differ. I simply thought Krstic and Green should get to play before we assume they won’t work out, let alone that we won’t keep the #1 seed in the East.
I think the same thing...
I obviously hope not, because the #3 seed has a tremendously difficult road in the playoffs, but Miami and Chicago are both breathing down our necks, and don’t have to incorporate several new players into their rotation.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Maybe, maybe not.
I vaguely recall in 2008 there were a few people saying “This can’t work, they can’t find the chemistry, the personalities won’t match, it’s going to take time” and then they came out, fit right in like it was always meant to be that way, and set the league on fire from the word “Go!”
Not saying that’s going to happen here, just saying. Let’s wait and see before we make and broad declarations.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Disagree.
We still have to see how the final chips settle into those remaining roster spots, but if they fall in as I think they will, this team by the end of next week will be much stronger overall for THIS year than it was just a day ago.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
jst give them a month to rebuild their chemistry wid the new guys..
0ur 0nly c0ncern n0w f we can have our bigs healthy heading int0 the play0ffs..Shaq and J.0.
I'm with them.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
+1
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
A month??? I wish!
If adding just one guard in the middle of the season (Marbury) was hard enough to make him learn the Celtic way due to the lack of time for practices, can you imagine with all these guys coming in??? We might as well forfeit 10 games and let them practice.
That is kind of how I see it
Although the starters will still play well together, so we should continue to win most of our games. Our late-season additions have for the most part really struggled here. All have had their moments, but Cassell, Starbury, Nate, Finley, Moore, and even Brown were largely underwhelming.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
That's probably what he's trying to avoid
By filling a fairly key role (Green) with a player that’s better than what he usually gets from buyouts and trading spare parts.
Please don't equate Marbury to...
Any human being on earth.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
At least not the sane variety
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Please do not compare
Marbury to Krstic or Green. Insulting.
Some really good posts here. Well done.
by itsgabriel on Feb 25, 2011 5:39 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Are the Celtics under some bizarre spending constraints from the FO or something?
Why does there seem to be no money to give to guys like Posey, Tony Allen and now Perk? Perk was asking for a contract worth $8 mil more than Boston was offering and the Celtics balked? They just gave $11 million to Jermaine O’Neal last summer! I mean, I understand wanting to look to the future and all, but uh, Perk is only 26 years old. An analogy for the Auerbach not shipping Bird or McHale thing late in their careers would be sending one of the Big 3 away, not one of the youngest guys of the team’s core.
When so much of the team’s core players are nearing the end of their prime years, you need to make a firm decision to either go for as much as you can now, or if you think the future holds more promise then you need to blow things up and start over. The Celtics were absolutely legit title contenders this year, so trading Perk away like that is just foolish. As Roy said, who cares if this is gonna make Boston better once Pierce can’t bring it any more. Is Jeff Green really gonna be able to carry the team on his back in a pairing with Rondo once the youngest of the Big 3 is too old to play up to his usual standard? I can’t see it.
The Celtics have/had a chance to win now, but it looks like they’ve weakened their chance to do so just to hedge against the future. When you have an aging team, that is definitely not a wise direction to go in, not unless you’re willing to start over building from the ground up (i.e. around Rondo with the Big 3 traded for younger guys and/or high draft picks). Ainge did the team and its fans a disservice today.
In the NBA there is a salary cap.
It is not simple to explain in a short post. There are numerous articles explaining it in detail. If you are really interested in understanding the answer to your first two questions, then you’ll need to do a little research. Try googling, “NBA Salary Cap Explained”.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
my guess is perk is becoming too injury prone
at a young age, ang being prone to shoulder and knee injuries, would be warning signs
you nailed it Roy
this trade was about making us better and better positioned for next season and beyond – that’s great and all, but if it ends us costing us this year, it isn’t worth it
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
I’m really surprised on your outlook on the trade. You seemed the optimistic type from the articles i’ve read from you over the past few years.
optimism is different from blind faith
I hope I’m wrong, but this deal seems to take us a step back this year
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
We simply don't know enough yet to form a strong opinion.
Simply in terms of this season, trading Perkins and Nate for Green and Krstic may or may not have been a good thing. Perkins health is too much of a question mark. Meanwhile, we don’t know what to expect from the two O’Neils. And since we tossed out Semih for essentially nothing (and he certainly would’ve been handy to have had around last night), then it only makes sense that other, more valuable players are likely to be arriving soon. We’ll have to wait and see.
I'm taking the wait and see approach
gotta wait till all the pieces are together and see how they gel before I make an assessment
and that’s just for this season, we won’t really know how great or terrible all this was until the draft picks come in a couple of years from now, (or if the picks are traded in a package for someone big)
trying to guess Ainge is like trying to play against a chess master that 10 steps ahead of you
It's a small step back.
With the potential for a huge step forward.
If Shaq is healthy, title chances this year haven’t been hurt one bit.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
True.
But we’re not exactly talking about trying to argue that Vin Baker was still an All-star when they signed him.
We’re talking about defending a trade that is bringing in two young, starting quality players with tremendous upside, plus a valuable 1st round pick, all while removing a contract that was dead weight all season. I hate losing Perk as much as the next guy, but I’d say it’s fairly reasonable to be optimistic about that scenario.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Sure.
Long as you don’t call it “blind faith” again.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Jeez, the hyperbole is crazy today...
Krstic is not young (he’s 27), he’s not starting quality, and he certainly doesn’t have “tremendous upside”. Green has two of those things, but I don’t think he has all that much upside. Of course, he’s already a pretty good player, I just wouldn’t expect an explosion from him.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I don't think
the Celtics are interested in signing Green. He’s going to ask for, and maybe get elsewhere, more than the Celtics want to pay a backup 3-4.
It could be...
Hopefully he at least accepts the qualifying offer next season.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
27 isn't young?
Wow. News to me.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
You consider 27 year old players to be young?
At that point, they should be established vets, without much more “upside”. If 30 is “old” in this league, what is 27.5? I’d call it closer to “middle age” than young.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
It's young enough.
That he could still show improvement, and have better years ahead of him.
My point is, he’s not so old that he’s unable to change because by the time he was mentality prepared (i.e. he’d “learned” what he needs to do to improve) he’d be physically unable to. So I would say yes, he is young in that, at 27 he is more than capable of learning from how KG and Shaq approach the game as big men, and apply that knowledge before it’s too late in his career, physically.
So yes, depends on your definition of “young” of course, but I’ll rephrase it for Krstic; young enough.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Green has boatloads of upside.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
We'll see...
I don’t expect him to get appreciably better than he is now. What areas of his game do you expect to take a big leap?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Playing the correct position, for a start.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I agree with you there...
… although most of the talk surrounding Green has been about how he can “defend multiple positions” and how he can fill the Posey role and allow us to play small. That means the Celtics envision him as much as a 4 as they do a 3, I think.
But even if the team plays him exclusively at the 3, I expect only modest improvements, rather than some explosion of “tremendous upside”.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
"That means the Celtics envision him as much as a 4 as they do a 3, I think."
Uh, not exactly.
If you envision him in Posey’s role, he was primarily a 3, who was able to play the 4 when Doc wanted to change up the pace and get out in transition. He liked those “small ball” line ups late in games, because it forced teams to cover 4 shooters, and not pack in the lane, this gives Rondo room to operate.
But that certainly doesn’t mean that see him as a 4, Posey’s primary role was still to play the 3 and back up Pierce. Green is taking over that exact role, and gives them a versatility they haven’t had since Posey left; and more, since he is a far more talented player than Posey.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
But what was Perk's upside?
Was he ever gonna develop a short jumper, become a decent FT shooter, or suddenly become Dikembe Mutombo? Heck even after 8 years and working with Clifford Ray he still has the nasty habit of bringing the ball down in the paint. No I think we’ve seen Perk’s best days behind him (much like Leon) and Danny made the right decision.
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 25, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not.
But I don’t think we’d see him suddenly develop a polished offensive game, or handle we hadn’t seen before. So I’d agree with you in that aspect. It’s been 8 years, Perkins will always be an offensive liability.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Krstic isn't starting quality?
His offense is starting-caliber the way Perkins is on defense if you ask me, assuming Krstic can actually shoot 18-foot jumpers. A center that can spread the floor usually has a very good chance at a starting job in this league, like he had in OKC. Think Big Z, Udoh.
Krstic has logged the most minutes at Center for OKC this season
and their record is 36-20 and they lead their division.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Wonderful argument.
I see you backed it up with some great evidence and solid proof to make your point.
Oh, wait a minute…
Either way, even if you’re right, if Oneals are healthy for the playoffs (as Danny seems confident in) then all Krstic will be needed for is to take Semih Erden’s spot. So at least there, if he’s a passable back up center, that’s all we need him for.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Kristic will be Shaq's backup
At least with Nenad, you can feel a little confident he wont get injured while trying wear his jersey like JO does!
these are always unknowable
outside of the C’s winning the title, we won’t know if they made it further than they would have with Perk.
Et tu, Jeff?
Jeff, we had all these guys the past three years, so how come we only won one out of three? Is it possible that even if there were not trades this year, we still would not win the title?
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Of course it is...
But there are probabilities, and if people think this gives us a lower probability of winning, I think that’s legit. Nobody is saying we were guaranteed a title.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
banner 18 is suppose to b this year..
if we cant make it to the finals this year its tough for us 2 get 18 nxt year. We dont kn0w what wil happen to the c’s roster if we cant make it to the finals it will be a maj0r dissapointment,
Trade shows Doc's staying
On a slightly positive note, i think the trade (which of course Doc was well aware of) shows that Doc will continue after this year, and this is for me a great news. I think if Doc were to left the team next year, he would have strongly advise against this trade.
I still hope DA will land some more bigs (like Leon Powe, if the Cavs indeed bought him out).
Interesting thought, but I think you may be right.
In 16 months, when the C’s may be picking 11-15 in the draft with that Clipper pick, if they also win it all this year, everyone on celticsblog will be posting how they loved the trade from the start.
Right now this Clips are 8th worst
So at least tracking the pick will be a fun “change of pace” over the next year or two or three, depending on how long it takes the Clips to climb out of the basement, if ever.
I like Mo Williams for Baron Davis in that respect. Baron turned into “Skippy” Blount II.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
LOL - we now have to root for the Clippers to be good
but not too good!
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
If the world ends on Dec 21st 2012 this is our next to last chance for a another Banner
and maybe JO will be healthy before then….and Shaq will have invented an ICY Hotpack for his entire body….imagine how much gooey ICYHOT that takes though….
…the good news for OKC is that Nate will have a growth spurt in 2012 and become 5’11" but will still shoot erratically
Is it Soup Yet?
Haha, nice.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Chemistry may miss a couple of beats
… but I don’t see a reason to believe it won’t be back as strong as ever. The core has not changed. And besides… all the chemistry in the world did not help this team win the championship last year. And that was when Perk was here…. but down, as has OFTEN been the case with him. He has a suspect shoulder, and issues with both knees. I believe Danny made the right move. Not the VERY BEST possible move in the world… but a solid one, a necessary one… albeit a very tough one too.
I’m sure others have noted how well the Cs have done this season with no Perk until just a few games ago. And now he’s down again, this time with the OTHER knee… I can see how that could have been the last straw for Danny. I think he did right: he looked to the future, but mostly worried about right now… and struck a good balance.
And one more thing: the picture is not yet complete. How can we make a final judgment so soon? We must wait, and see. Already we’ve seen good things from C Johnson. Let’s see who else walks in that door, and what else happens, before we call this folly.
Tell you what I think: the team will be stronger than ever before this thing is done. Nothing that has happened moves me from believing this team wins it all this year.
You were doing okay there until you mentioned Chris Johnson.
Good gravy, the guy was shoved around the paint last night like somebody’s little sister. If he’s any indication of what might be walking in the door soon, then we’re in heap big trouble.
You didn't see any good things from Johnson?
When was the last time Perk hit an alleyoop? Johnson practically jumped out of the building to hit that one, and he was in a pretty awkward position too. Well done. Plus 3 blocked shots — reportedly his specialty. So he got pushed around ONCE. So? He’s not supposed to Shaq in his 20s. Point is…. there was much to like. Some more of that, and we’ll be good to go.
"Pushed around once"? Seriously? I have a vacuum cleaner that hasn't been pushed around as much as Johsnon was last night.
I appreciate that you’re trying to see the positive side of things. But let’s not go overboard.
You guys are cracking me up :)
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Chris Johnson is just filler on a 10-day contract.
Considering he had no clue on where to be on offense and defense – especially the latter, which requires a lot of practice time – he didn’t really play all that bad.
But he is NOT likely to be filling one of those roster spots more than a few days.
Congrats to the kid on getting a second (and much more significant) cup of coffee at The Show. And maybe this will help his longer term career. I wish him well. But he’s almost certainly headed back to the D-League next week.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
He looked great considering his circumstances.
And had the blocks and jumps. I don’t think he was bad at all.
we disagree
he had one block and “jumps” (what is that?)
He looked like he could turn out to be very serviceable but long way to go it appeared
Is it Soup Yet?
3 blocks
according to the stats
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Feb 25, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Many have said Perk's injury in game 6 cost the C's the title
This wasn a questionable desicion AT BEST.
From my perspective, add losing Erden and it’s pure stupidity.
Perk would have “taken less” to stay…
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:09 AM EST up reply actions
I love Perk
…but am glad he’s gone. Too much glass there. As you point out, we already lost one championship because of his glasshood…. enough. I believe… and it’s certainly possible…. that before this is over, this team will be stronger than ever.
Wow
Might as well be glad, since nothing can be done about it now.
Too bad it sets up the Lakers 17th title !
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
No he wouldn't.
Or he would have taken the extension that was already offered.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
It could be 2009 redux
A team that simply did not have enough healthy bigs.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
Hope you were crossing your fingers when you typed that
(which means you typed with 1 hand).
Was Perkins with the team when he was told about the trade or back in Boston due to the new injury against the warriors-
by bbeingphilled on Feb 25, 2011 6:06 AM EST via mobile reply actions
this trade kinda hurts the fans and the celtic nati0n..
perkins s a true celtics he has dat green bl00d in him we surely g0nna miss perkules.
Another angle is the fact that...
the 2 OKC players are both restricted free agents after this season, right?
Hmmm.. I just can;t wait to find out who we get to fill the last 3 spots ;) Time to move on, guys! This is our Celtics now! It’s either yer in, or yer out ;)
its all ab0ut 18 is our theme this yr.
so no matter wat it takes g0 get dat 18! 18thbanner 2011 g0 get it green! if we cnt get 18 this yr wat will be our theme nxt yr? ita all ab0ut trying 2 get dat 18 again?
Stop panicing
First, while I love Perk as much as anyone, he is not Larry Bird or even Robert Parish for that matter. I think sometimes we overrate Perk’s actual skills and abilities because he works so hard and has come so far. Yeah, he is a very good post defender. But he can’t jump and he doesn’t move really well. Worse still, he is getting injury prone. Do you guys want to bet 60+ million on a guy with a marginal low post offensive game and now two bad knees? I don’t.
Jeff Green fills a desperate need. I don’t buy him as a starter. But I love him off the bench. The Celtics can give hm a half year try out and see if he is worth keeping. If not, the Celtics will have tons of cap room in 2012. Danny didn’t give away Erdin and Hargoody to Cleveland unless he knew he was going to get some help in the buy out season.
The Celtics are going to fill the inside hole with buyouts and have the depth on the parameter they have been missing since James Posey left. And they got a 24 year old player who has a decent ceiling. They will still win this year.
if shaq can be healthy this c0ming playoffs and J.0. is contributing in the bench.
we can stil be a danger0us team.
Yes
And they play Davis and Garnett down low in crunch time anyway. They don’t need that much from the big guys on the bench.
by John C Kluge on Feb 25, 2011 6:49 AM EST up reply actions
danny made a risk high reward calculated decision ..
So far this season, per 36 minutes:
Shaq 16.7 points 8.8 reb 2.2 blk
Krstic 13.0 points 7.5 reb 0.7 blk
Perk 10.1 points 11.2 reb 1.1 blk
the chemistry in the locker room comes from DOC RIVERS…and the emotional leader of the team KEVIN GARNETT….not kendrick perkins….KP was a great defensive roll player AT BEST….im sorry but i was never that high on KP in the first place, i loved his heart and toughness but his basketball skills outside of being a hard hitting defensive guy are nothing …as people have already stated…NENAD is an offensive UPGRADE !!! thats not saying much for KP….i cant wait to watch jeff green catch a bunch of crisp passes and finish at the hoop aggressively…..DOC talked about how GREEN was going to help the celtics play a specific lineup…a lineup they used often in the playoffs during their title run….i can see how rondo allen pierce green garnett could be really good…..REALLY GOOD….and NENAD …well….watch him start wailing on this dude from behind after the guy took some cheap shots at his teammate when he was down…..
Of course it is risky...
We just changed the core of the #1 title contender. With that comes inherent risk, both on the court and in the locker room.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Far less chance for a title today than yesterday
Huge surprise from a team that was 2nd best in the league.
Is Danny looking to move to OKC?
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:12 AM EST up reply actions
That's just not true.
But Roy’s right it’s a huge risk.
If Shaq is healthy, title chances haven’t taken any hit whatsoever.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
its all about getting healthy heading int0 the play0ffs.
we stil have the big 4 c0me on! it aint 0ver yet! go get dat 18!
Have had time to breath
The negatives: 1) we are going to lose more games down the stretch while these new guys try to fit in. This trade tells me that the Doc and Ainge had all but given up on this team winning first seed in the East—and maybe they were right given the injuries we were dealing with 2) If we face Orlando or LA in the playoffs, we will have a big hill to climb 3) Chemistry 4) Obviously we are a poorer defensive team without Perk, possibly a poorer rebounding team as well 5) The bench still lacks character and cohesiveness, but that has been missing all year due to injuries.
The positives: 1) Lots of fresher eager legs coming on board with a potential championship in their grasp—-this should give the veterans plenty of rest down the stretch so we hit our stride at playoff time 2) we are absolutely a better offensive team in a variety of configurations with Perk off the floor—remember when we couldn’t seem to buy a basket at times versus the Lakers last year? 3) The additions give us more options guarding the Wades, Lebrons and Kobes of the NBA—-we needed that BIG time after Marquis went down, that need cannot be understated 4) Players’ defense seems to “magically” improve when they get on this team. And the nucleus is still there. Chemistry could be much less of an issue if the new players immediately come on board and earn KG’s and Doc’s respect.
Lots of people know (and think they know) better than I do how this trade will affect our team’s fortunes. I can’t compete in an argument about that and don’t want to.
But I will miss Perkins greatly. I’ve rooted for him his whole career, I’ve admired his work ethic and growth as a player, and it feels like there’s a big old void now.
This is one of those moments when the Celtics seem a little more like just another NBA team hustling players instead of the uniquely special organization that has values beyond just the product on the floor. It’ll take me a while to get over this.
Good luck Nenad and Jeff. And Chris and Tiny.
by Thruthelookingglass on Feb 25, 2011 7:00 AM EST reply actions
maybe wid this trade danny has a plan 2 get dweight howard wen he becomes a FA.
dweight and rondo could b a gud pair th0u.
people forget, as Doc and Danny said, that during the playoffs they often went with Posey instead
and Green is the new Posey now. Perk rode the bench for long stretches in 2008’s playoffs
lets hope
that Green is better than posey.. I don’t know if you can say we are the best defensive team in the league anymore, we are going to have to win differently now.
by JunkyardDawg on Feb 25, 2011 7:46 AM EST up reply actions
Yep.
Doc closed games with that “Small ball” line up, a lot. He loved putting 4 shooters who can run around Rondo at the end of games.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Nice article but you are assuming that the banged up guys were going to be A-OK physically come playoff time. They havent been healthy all season and the more games played, the more banged up you get. I believe Danny also assumed this and that’s why he made some moves. He got rid of 2 banged up centers and retained 2 banged up centers. We are not out of the woods yet, by any means.
Plus now we are going to have to deal with some improved teams in the East with our banged up team. Of course we will miss Perks(somewhat). But Im sure the decision makers thought about it and weighted all options – and remember, the NBA is a business for the owners. We watch the pipers play but they pay the Pipers. They can assume they found out thru internal discussions with Perk’s agent that they were going to lose him. That we could have gotten better value for him? We cannot know- We were’nt there. That we are going to be without a top center- most probably. We now depend entirely on whether Shak and JO recover, but Im not putting my money on that. Unfortunately, the injury bug flattened us down this year. Before these trades, I was weary of the physical status of our core players come playoff time. Now we got some new non-injured players players but with more uncertainty – specially at the Center position. Murphy is not a center, even if we get him. We now got two injured 5’s instead of 4 injured 5’s. Wow – We’re improved! Or are we? Time will tell.
Actually...
I think it is Danny relying on banged up guys, namely Shaq and JO. If they’re not healthy this trade will be a flop. I hope he’s right.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
That is correct.
If the Oneals can’t help come playoff time. This trade hurts the team, there is no question.
It’s a gamble, but if Danny is right, he just accomplished a great thing. He positioned the team to not only still get Banner 18 this year (which, if the Oneals are healthy, they are still every bit as capable of) but also drastically improved the future out look of the team.
If the Basketball gods smile on us, and keep Shaqs achilles intact, and Jermaine knee from shattering, this was a wonderful trade and a great move from Danny. If not, he’s significantly hurt the teams title chances. But I still wouldn’t blame him.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
well, almost
I think Dantenina’s point is that Danny is trying to move from having FOUR banged 7 footers to having TWO banged up 7 footers plus at least two healthy ones.
He’s so far moved two banged up centers away (Perk, Semih) and brought one healthy one (Krstic) in.
It is likely he will be trying to bring at least one more healthy big man in via FA (i.e. someone like Murphy).
The risk on Shaq and JO remains the same as it was before the trade.
If we come out of this with, say Murphy and Krstic, while neither of those guys is the defensive presence of Perk, overall they represent an upgrade over Perk and Semih, especially in terms of health.
Having two healthy average Cs can help us NOW by helping us win games in the regular season towards HCA. In the mean time, we don’t need Shaq until the playoffs, so Doc & Danny are going to take their sweet time before bringing him back out.
That’s a key point. If we didn’t make this move, it was looking like we would have to ride Perk for 25-30 minutes a game before we even get to the playoffs. PLUS we would have to keep riding BBD at both PF and C. If one of those guys wore down we’d be screwed.
And of course I don’t even want to think of how bad off it would be if Pierce wore down and we didn’t have a stud like Greene available. If Shaq never got 100% back, as long as Krstic and Player X (i.e. Murphy) are healthy, we’d have enough bigs to still be a contender. If Pierce got injured, and we didn’t have a player of Green’s caliber, we’d be screwed. No way would we win with a journeyman like Parker or Butler. They’re decent, but they aren’t in the class of Pierce. Neither is Green – yet. But he has the talent to BE as good as Pierce.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Not that it matters a ton...
… but Murphy isn’t exactly “healthy” either. He’s as banged up as Perk is, at least.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Tru dat...
but if the O’Neals aren’t healthy then it doesn’t really matter if we have Perk or not. Especially now that he has a bad wheel, it wasn’t like we could play Perk thirty some minutes a game and have him be effective.
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 25, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'm realizing more and more why Danny did this...
…but in the end it was a bad move. Bottom line, we had a championship team in front of us, and now it is uncertain.
Having said that, we would have had no flexibility going after this season. Say we re-sign Perk next year, and the “big 3” have one more (big if with the impending lockout) possibility for a championship in them, then after that we basically have Rondo and an overpaid albeit well-liked defensive big man and whatever else we get from the big 3… we would have been in serious rebuilding mode and would have been in a rut for years to come. Hopefully DA makes a run at D Howard now. But who is to say a core of Rondo, Jeff Green and Howard (best case scenario?) is a championship-contending team and not a pretender? Esp with the Heat/Bulls likely getting stronger as time goes on.
I have to think DA is smarter and more knowledgeable about this team than I, but I think he, like many people, underestimated the difficulty in building a truly championship-caliber team here. We had a championship team right in front of us, and Danny broke it up.
We has a championship team, and now we dont? by trading our only non all star starter? who was injured all year and had virtually nothing to do with us having the best record in the east? we were better when shaq was healthy and playing, plain n simple…big 4 healthy? put doc rivers out there and we still have a chance..
you can't argue with a championship
we had one with perk playing an instrumental role. regular season games tell us nothing. i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, we had a championship team right in front of us. why change it? to have a borderline playoff team in a few years?
by JunkyardDawg on Feb 25, 2011 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
+1
C’s were arguably the best team, clearly and indisputably the 2nd best.
Roy is right – this is folly, indeed
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
People were saying we were screwed without a backup SF to give Pierce rest
We got that backup SF, and a very offensively-competent center, AND may get someone in a buyout.
We’re fine, ESPECIALLY for the playoffs, if we’re healthy.
Defense and rebounding win titles...
As of right now, we’re worse in both areas. We obviously needed a SF, but Anthony Parker would have filled that role adequately while still preserving our size and defensive advantages.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Roy...so glad I am not alone....you speaking my position well
and lots of people on here totally respect your opinion ….so I have that going for me LOL
Is it Soup Yet?
As has been stated many times.
Boston went 33-10 without Perk, and still had one of the best rated defenses in the league, spending a lot of that time at #1 (in fact, they’ve fallen out of #1 since, and that has been since Perk has been back.) So this whole “Perk was the cornerstone of the D” stuff is blown out of proportion.
I love Perk, he was fantastic for this team for a long time, but the team will be fine without him, just as they were almost all year. When they’ve lost games, it’s because of a difficult in putting the ball in the hoop, Green and Krstic can do a lot in that aspect.
Defense a rebounding wins championships, but you still gotta score points.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Let me start by saying I love Kendrick Perkins, but i think alot of people are completely blowing this drastically out of proportion..Perk was a big part of our success…the last 3 years…this season? Had virtually nothing to do with us having the best record in the league, and offensively we were worse with him starting then any of our centers and he just flat out couldnt stay healthy, in the biggest of games no less.
I just cant get over the fact that people are so blind to the fact he had NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR GREAT START TO THE SEASON AND WE INSTANTLY GOT WORSE OFFENSIVELY WHEN HE CAME BACK
What you’re not seeing is that Perk was around the guys every day in practice, and he was FAMILY…and that contributed so much to us having the best record in the league…think about it…
Nope thats just silly…I agree the guy was a huge part of the celtic family….but him being around the team being a reason we had the best record in the east is absurd to the point i think youre being sarcastic
why do you keep talking about this year?
this year means nothing. regular season games mean nothing. we were 4 points away from a championship last year with the 4th seed. all that matters is the playoffs, and we knew we had a winning combo for the playoffs. why change it?
by JunkyardDawg on Feb 25, 2011 9:02 AM EST up reply actions
Bob Ryan's take
He has a video on the Globe site (which I’m sure will be posted here soon in the morning links). While he concedes it’s a gamble, his general, conventional-wisdom take is, anytime you have a four-player deal and you wind up with the best player in the deal, you’ve done well. And he considers Jeff Green the better player (even given his weaknesses). Very interesting take.
He's absolutely right.
The #1 rule for NBA games is any deal you make, get the best player in it.
I clearly think Danny did that, and he also did it while grabbing a valuable 1st round pick, and unloading a bad contract with Nate. Oh, and for a little icing on the cake, he grabbed a starting quality Center who is young, and who’s play with a major reason why his team was able to push LA to 7 games in the playoffs.
Ya, I’d say he did ok.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
He definitely got the best player if Green plays up to his potential
However, that does not mean they will now win the championship this year or that their chances are better.
Sorry, but I am not sold on Krstic.
It also doens't mean they won't.
Or that they would have even with Perk, there are no guarantees in this world.
Oh, and I’m not sold on Krstic either. But he can score, that I can tell you. Any defense he can bring is a bonus.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
+1
Green is easily the most talented player in that pool.
He has star potential and the Celtics are a MUCH better system for him to be in.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Except they DIDN'T "push LA to 7 games in the playoffs"....
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
My bad. 6 games.
With a 1 point nail biter at the end.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Perkins was dreadful this season, contributed next to nothing, barely played in many games, Couldnt stay healthy in big games, and made us worse offensively by a large margain.As doc and danny keep saying when we won the championship we went with a small lineup with posey in the biggest of games, and Jeff green is better than posey
But we did not win last year because we needed a bigger lineup against the Lakers
A rotation of Perk, Shaq and JO (I am using the latter two because DA seems to think they will be healthy for the playoffs) would be more than enough to win it all. All we had to do was get a backup wing and we were set. I think the Cavs would have taken Luke, Semih and Nate for Parker and a lesser player. So, I am not feeling this trade. Perhaps I will change my mind over time, but it does not make sense for this season, when we have a great shot at the ring.
Even though I support the trade, I totally disagree with this.
Perkins has not been ‘dreadful this season’.
He’s only played in 12 games, but in those games he’s been fantastic at rebounding and his defense has been terrific. Even though his offensive game is weak, at 10pts and 11.2 rebounds per 36 minutes, he’s far, far from ‘dreadful’.
Just because trading Perk was the right move to make, there is no need to artificially trash his level of play.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
We eliminated the size we spent the off season accumulating.
Rondo said as much in an interview shown during the game last night. Said he expected to at least see Semih starting, but even he was gone. Still doesn’t make any sense to me that Ainge did this after a night of sleep.
Am I missing what Perkins did for us this year besides make us worse?
Love him as a guy, love what he previously did for us but cmon people
He frustrated me offensively, too...
Sometimes to no end. But you can’t put a price on the chemistry and the desire for the FORMER team to get back at the Lakers for last year. They had a chip on their shoulder that is a little lighter now. Watch the first episode of “The Association” for details.
Ive seen it
We were a better team when Perkins was injured this season and got the best record in the east, without him…I love the guy, never been a hater of his but im stating facts. We still have 4 all stars starting for us…I think im ok with it
I'd tend to agree with you.
But I think he did bring a lot to the defensive side.
But the point is, if Shaq can’t play, losing Perk hurts, a lot. If Shaq can play, I 100% Agree, we were a better team with Shaq on the floor.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
And i never bought into the whole “we wouldve won game 7 if perkins was healthy” well first of all he wasnt, and continually got hurt in big moments in big games…that and we sound like lakers fan in 2008 when they whined and moaned they would have won had bynum been healthy…blahblahblah
Perkins wasnt playing good in that series and wasnt reboundin well either
Continually?
Like when? What big games had he missed prior to the Finals?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
He missed a game in the 2008 finals, his shoulder popped out against the Magic in a few different regular season games…i dont have exact facts but his shoulder and knees were fragile
We had a double digit lead in that game, I guess perkins was gonna be a crunch time player and rebounder? when he hadnt even played well in the series? nd again i loved perkins but I think his role on this years team is being drastically overstated…he had almost nothing to do with anything the celtics have accomplished this year, except maybe that win against the cavs at home in his season debut, woo
Unreasonable statement
Fluke injury, and Perk played VERY well after a minimal recovery time.
HUGE loss for the C’s title aspirations.
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:15 AM EST up reply actions
lol
Really? the celtics were worse offensively across the board the instant he came back and showed no signs of improvement defensively…with shaq healthy the celtics were much, much better this year….sad, but true
Also when we won the championship, in all the most win, big games in the playoffs we went small with posey at the 4
Talk is cheap
Show me how "the celtics were worse offensively across the board the instant he came back " (while at perhaps 70-80% healthy)…
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:26 AM EST up reply actions
Watch with your eyes bro, they were playing the best they had been playing in YEARS while perk was injured, rondo averaging more assists, ray shooting his best percentages ever, KG having a resurgent year, dude..seriously they got worse as soon as perk came back..eye test
Or...
The offense took a slight dip due to players becoming banged up over a long season. Was Perk coming back responsible for the Pierce and Rondo injuries?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Offense was better with Shaq...
..of course there are other factors to consider, but Shaq’s offensive presence on the post was helping balance out continuity and creating better spacing. On top of that, the defensive numbers were exceptional as well.
While Shaq/JO health is a question, the team’s ability to play at a high level with them is not….and factoring in the OBVIOUS upcoming additions to the empty roster spots, the team will have depth at center to compensate for the fragility of the group.
Troy Murphy, for one, will bring excellent rebounding on par with Perkins’ production and his ability to shoot the 3 ball will further open up Rondo’s offensive game. While everyone will harp on his defensive ability, the Celtics have consistently shown that their system can take players with tools and will and turn them into functioning cogs.
Its a gamble in some ways – chemistry being the biggest unknown. But the team can indeed be better from a skill standpoint and i’m not about to call it a day before i see it in action first.
by BillfromBoston on Feb 25, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
In other words, FAIL
Perk coming back was a must due to Grampa Shaq and useless JO’s injuries. It would have been WORSE had Perk not gone the extra mile in rehab needed to exceed expectations and get back on the court so quickly.
So you’re claiming Perks return affected Rondo’s assists, Ray’s shooting, and KG’s resurgence?
Balderdash!
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
Perk's return may have influenced all of that, but the reality is there was no other option.
With the O’Neals on the shelf and Semih limping (figuratively), the alternative to Perk was ugly indeed. He came back so well so quickly that we’ve forgotten that he is still recovering. He probably won’t be fully back until next year, when, if he really wants, he probably has the option to play with the C’s again anyway. I think he’ll settle in at Oklahoma with their generous upcoming contract offer just fine, however. Heck, this move may be what keeps Perk from landing with LeBron.
Yep.
I’ve heard that both OKC and Miami intended to go hard after Perk in the off-season. Trading him to OKC enables THEM to match any offer which should keep Perk there, forcing Miami to look elsewhere for a big.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Nope, he was
Now welcome in Jeff green, new family member
Yep, how many current players have been with the same team for 8 years?
These guys are not robots. They feel the loss of Perk on and off the court. It has to affect them, at least in the short term.
This is true.
It is silly to pretend that Perk wasn’t important to this team’s personality. All of the guys repeatedly described the team, especially the core, as ‘brothers’ and I believe they are sincere.
But as KG would probably say, the NBA is a war (analogy alert!). And in a war you sometimes lose your brothers. You can’t stop fighting when that happens because your other brothers need you.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
And they got new brothers
Even if it may not be appropriate to call Green and Krstic brothers yet, they’re there now and will be for the rest of the season. I’m sure they may like the idea of possibly getting a ring this year, too.
Good article, Roy
I feel, however, that Danny did not see today’s Kendrick Perkins being able to handle the 5 spot against tougher teams, based on his knee conditions. He took a big gamble, and may not have accurately factored in the price of chemistry (hard to do), which is the biggest point of your story.
You need to spend just 1 minute with KG, Pierce, Rondo, and Ray…just 1 minute..and let them tell you what you need to hear
What you’re not seeing is that he still contributed mightily, just by being around and inspiring his brothers…
haha
This is just grasping at straws, u sound like youre being sarcastic its so farfetched…so an injury riddled center who will never make an all star game inspired 4 future hall of famers, 4 current all stars to the best record in the east?
omg people
Like I said, the only way you’re going to have a chance to understand is if you listen to KG, Rondo, Paul, and Ray…
They lost a brother they been to war with…ehm ok? they will get over it and be just fine, trust me on that, theyre not going to throw a party because a friend got traded, but at the same time they understand the buisness and quite frankly they got the best player back in the deal and traded someone hes been injured all year and made us worse offensively…Perkins didnt die, he didnt even go to a horrible team with bad fans…he will be fine and so will we
When you get ready to hit the front lines for war, you go with those you’ve trained with as a unit…especially with a unit that has been together for several years…
Wait a sec...
Perk there probably did make everyone practicing feel better. How does that mean that him being gone will ruin us when we get back two competent players in Krstic and Green? Same for Nate being gone.
I’m sure they’re all hurting, they said they were. I understand that. That doesn’t mean this year’s over.
Perk's fault, unfortunately.
Perk could have prevented all this by simply signing the extension. Is he worth more than that? Probably (but who knows with the new CBA). But if Perk was really so sad to go, he, or his agent, should have realized that in not signing the extension offer there was a risk of a trade. He should have sigmed it if he really wanted to stay. You can talk about “loyalty” all you want, but the Celtics offered Perk the max extension on his contract. And he turned it down to seek more money. That’s what precipitated this.
not perks fault at all
that wasnt a real offer and everyone knows it. And did DA did what was good for DA instead of doing what was good for this team now.
So they wouldn't have traded him if he signed the (below market value) extension?
How do you figure?
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
Would u pay Perk more than market value?
Would u pay Perk more…I would of offered him about 30-35Million, but nothing more.
The total is less important than the amount per year and number of years.
It is the per year amount that hits the salary cap.
$30-35M over say, 4 years is not far off from what Perk may get in free agency. But it is more than Danny thinks the Celtics can commit because that’s an $8M+ cap hit.
$30-35 over 6 years would be a nice tiny cap hit, but would leave Perk underpaid. And Danny might not want to have such a long-term commitment.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
It was a lowball offer...
Perk made the right call turning it down. Starting centers are simply worth more than $5.75 million per year.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Not the whole story?
My understanding is that the offer was the max that could be offered as an extension until after the season. Am I wrong?
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
No, you're right...
… but the team can’t have expected him to take that deal. It was lowball in terms of value, and nobody should read into Perk rejecting it.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Agree
I thought it was symbolic to send a message to Perk that he was wanted (as opposed to NOT making an offer and the message that would send).
But apparently my thought that Perk was a key to this years title hopes was way off…
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
He was an important piece.
Who was replaceable. That’s a cold philosophy because Perk did embody a lot of what we call “Celtic Pride” but the simple fact is, this team starts and ends with the Big 4, always has, always will. Perk was just a piece around that who while important, isn’t irreplaceable.
I mean look at it this way, in 08, Doc often went with the small ball line up with Posey at the 4 and KG at the 5, Perk averaged about 26 minutes that year. His offensive game, anyone can tell you, has not improved at all, and while he is a better defender now than he was then, the Celtics defense was still one of the best in the league through 40 games while he sat the sidelines. So don’t tell me he was that vital to this team.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I don't agree that it was a "lowball."
We don’t know what starting centers are going to be paid under the new CBA. And it’s not like Perk is an All-Star. He is role player who plays fantastic physical defense in the post, but is limited in just about every other area of his game (and somewhat injury-prone). If he really wanted to stay in Boston, he could have lived comfortably on nearly $6M a year. And he pretty much would have guaranteed he wouldn’t be traded since he would have been good value to the Celtics for the money. I wish he would have just accepted the extension, for both his and the team’s sake. This smacks of agent’s advice gone wrong.
Agree
Perk would have been happier just taking the offer and being a Celtic for life.
I betcha he gets a new agent before signing his next deal.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
This is just fantasy land.
At a minimum, both Miami and OKC were going to be bidding on Perkins this summer. No way he would end up making less than $8M per year.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Miami couldn't offer that much though.
They only have the MLE to play with. So unless Boston facilitated a sign and trade, that wasn’t happening.
OKC is a different story though, they definitely would have made a serious run at him. It’s possible they let Krstic and Green go in the off season (since they were RFAs) giving them money to spend on Perk. Pulling the trade off, allowed them to acquire his Bird rights, for two players they may not have kept anyway, and increase their ability to make a real offer for his long term services.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I think Green is the only RFA
Krstic can go where he pleases
by GetYourSoxOn on Feb 25, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
The sky isn't falling
For good reason we all loved Perk, Perk loved the Celts, and his team mates loved Perk. But love clouds facts, he’s a very good role player, but not elite. His defensive value is very high, but it was mitigated by his offensive lack of skill. There is also a risk profile – they needed to move one of the big three injured centers, and realistically Perk was the most tradeable for what teams would want and from the good of the team going forward (Shaq and JO signed for next year.) The alternative would be to trade BBD (something that wouldn’t have bothered me), but his durability and positional flexibility was probably higher valued. Bringing in Murphy is probably easier with only two of the Shaq / JO / Perk mash unit on the roster.
Secondly Green gives us more depth at PF (KG, BBD, Green are all viable candidates for minutes in a big time game) and a legit big 3. With Wafer at the wings, and West at guards I think their depth is good (but I’d like a third string PG better than AB.)
Finally Perk got traded to the team I hoped he’d go to if the C’s couldn’t resign him. Moving him to OKC gives LAL and SAS a harder path to the finals and gives OKC the inside track on resigning there (him signing with Miami would have been devastating IMO.)
Unfortunately time won’t tell – we’ll never know if 18 happens if KG isn’t injured two years ago, we’ll never know if 18 would have happened if Perk played game 7, and we’ll never know how good the team would have been if Perk hadn’t been traded.
But 18 this season just faded into extremely unlikely
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
Please explain how it faded into extremely unlikely....
because I don’t see it that way, and neither does the math… could it be maybe your heart is effecting your judgement?
by incoherent. on Feb 25, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I would say that depending on the health of JO and Shaq is pretty risky
This is why I think it is unlikely. I also believe it will be too difficult to integrate all of these new guys into a championship caliber team in 25 games.
If you don't have the O'Neals healthy...
then it really doesn’t matter if we still have Perk. #18 is less likely if you have to rely on a center rotation of a recovering/oft injured Perk, a less than healthy Semih, and an undersized BBD.
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 25, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
It's likely they will now not get the #1 seed
And to me the odds of Perk being a healthy championship-level starting center were far better than Shaq, Krstic, or (especially) JO
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
And you making any point in this entire thread.
Is looking extremely unlikely.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Excellent ancillary point..
Perk is what OKC has been missing and his arrival extends Boston’s chance at contention viability in the East by blocking him from Miami. It also makes OKC stronger against SA/LAL, though that can eventually hurt us obviously.
by BillfromBoston on Feb 25, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
As much as I hate OKC (the team, not the players or city)
Landing Perk there is pretty much ideal.
Its ideal for Perk because its a great team to have around him. A very good fit for his skills since they won’t be expecting him to score at all (not with Durant and Westbrook each taking 20 shots per game!).
Its ideal for the Celtics because it blocks Miami from getting Perk and also throws more competition into the west.
[fwiw – I hate the Thunder because I grew up a Sonics fan.]
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
OKC has his bird rights.
While Miami can now only offer MLE money.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Should say, they've always only been able to offer the MLE.
So if OKC was willing to pay more to get him, having has bird rights now makes it a lot easier.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
When you get ready to hit the front lines for war, you go with those you’ve trained with as a unit…especially with a unit that has been together for several years…
Whoa
This isnt war.
And even in war, there is a thing called “replacements.”
"Celtics bring order and structure to a chaotic world"
It is a war in a sense
We call our players warriors and heroes. They have a ton of responsibility to perform well and act as a team every day.
And btw, please don’t use the word replacements when referring to a real war. A lot of good men have died in the wars and they are not replaceable.
but to carry out the analogy
you don’t stop fighting because one of your brothers has gone down.
You still have to keep fighting.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
This will make for a very interesting episode of the NBA-TV reality series on the Celtics
by bbeingphilled on Feb 25, 2011 8:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Stern is crying tears of joy right now.
The Association, Episode 4 is going to have Shaq sized ratings.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
i hoped and prayed
when the trades happened something was going to be revealed to have all of this make sense. That danny had some sortv plan to bring someone in which would require to strip half our team with only a quarter of the season left. Now its pretty clear these moves leave us high and dry and desperate to get some of these buyout guys. And of course our various rivals will realize all they have to do is aggresively take those buyout guys and the celtics are screeewed.
I'm trusting in Danny and their ability to patch together the center spot among all their options this year.
And who knows? Though Oklahoma seems like the ideal place for Perk, there’s even the possibility that he could sign with the C’s over the summer—whereas Green is only a restricted FA.
Alot of overreacting here cause we traded a guy who has barely contributed THIS SEASON…baby has done much more for us this year and im sure half of you were chomping at the bit to trade him, just weird.
We get the best player back in the deal, a versatile player who fits the james posey mold..ya know the guy we won a championship with playing the 4 spot?
best of luck perk, but we just got better and people are being emotional and irrational
Have a good day yall
if it was just perk
id be getting over it. But DA dumped too much at once. Semih was a good option for us in a team with dwindling centers. And he pretty much just blew up our roster.
We have 3 open spots on the roster now
to fill with players that will be bought out in the next few days. Do you really expect Doc to rely on Semih ,who has battled injuries himself all year, in big games in the playoffs?
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 25, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Slept on this trade and like it even less
Have Shaq and JO returned from Lourdes where they have been miraculously healed of all of their injuries? Did Nenad Krstic all of a sudden become a tough guy who will keep people out of the lane and be a Celtics’ enforcer? Has Danny signed all of those great buyout guys he has on his rdar? Answer to all of these is, “no.”
On the other side, have the Celtics lost the chemistry that made them what they were? The answer is, “yes.”
I hate this trade and hate listening to talk radio today. The way most of the callers are talking about Perk, you would think he is the equivalent of Mark Blount.
+1
Perk’s huge presence defensively can’t be replaced, and how DA thoght that Erden was only worth a 2nd rounder just boggles the mind.
I remember seeing Perk in the 1st couple of games back and marvelling at his defense.
Dwight and Pau are “singing in the rain”
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Like Gody, but he was at best, a moderately useful bench player, in a couple years.
And with Danny’s track record in the draft, those guys are a dime a dozen.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Plus CLEs 2nd rounder should be a good one
I’d guess that second rounder is better than Semih and Gody combined. In the meantime neither of those guys is a difference maker in the playoffs. Kristic is a significantly better player than Semih right now, and I think toughness can rub off. He’s not going to be an enforcer, but I expect he’ll put in better effort on this team on D.
Entirely possible.
Actually I like grabbing a high second rounder next year, there is a huge parity is next years draft. No clear front runners, but a lot of talented players deep into the 30 and beyond picks.
Bad time to be picking 1-10, great time to be picking 20-40.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Is it?
I can’t find a link right now, no one is talking about that trade with the Perk thing, so it’s hard to get info.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Correct
It’s Minny’s #2.
They’ll still suck in 2013, have no fear.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
Haha, truth.
Good ole Kahn.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Great Post!
Team chemistry beats taent all day! Don’t believe me look at what the C’s did to the Heat this year…
This is the main reason number 18 is out of the question this year
And why I have hated the trade from the beginning. There is no way to work all of these new guys into the celtics system and to rebuild the chemistry this team has before the regular season ends. Jeff Green hopefully be a good player here and maybe Danny will sign one or two valuable buyout guys, but it is about the chemistry and nothing else. How many stories have we read about how this the guys on this team were tighter than any other team in the NBA? How they really shut out all of the other guys and formed this nucleus of guys? How it was us against the world? All of that is gone now and so are the chances at 18 this year.
Working 4 or 5 new guys into a complicated densive scheme in 25 games is not going to be easy
Plus, I don’t care what anyone says, the Celts lost their true toughness with Perk going out the door.
I don't think it's out of the question...
… but it’s going to be an uphill climb.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Funny
Here we go again, eh? You’re gonna have another ‘gee I’m so glad I was wrong’ moment.
Not this year
You don’t rebuild a team — which is what they are doing (yes, with a great core though) in 25 games.
I like the trade
I think you will too, before this is over. (I already like CJ, and he’s only on a 10-day. Ever see Perk alleyoop/dunk like that?)
Please give it a rest on Chris Johnson
He is an almost 7-footer that barely weighs 200 pounds. If they keep him, it will be as the 15th man on the roster, and even that is a stretch.
Agreed.
I actually did like him a lot too. I wouldn’t mind if they kept him around for awhile, but obviously he’s not solution for this team right away. At best maybe he’s a useful 10 minute guy for the future.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
'boy needs to sit next to BBD at meal time
to learn how to EAT!!!
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Since they have no chance.
Feel free to buy league pass and watch Miami the rest of the year, I won’t mind.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Since #18 is out of the question...
can I have your finals playoff tickets? :)
by Las Vegas Asian on Feb 25, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
The C’s are 3-0 against the Heat this season. They were 2-0 against Miami when Perk was injured and Shaq started and 1-0 with Perk starting and Shaq unavailable.
The common denominator in the 3 games: Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett and Davis all played.
All five of those guys are still in Celtics green and I’m also sure all five of them would take serious issue with your implication that they are talentless in comparison to the Three Wannabes.
Our chemistry did not disappear when Perkins was traded. Our core group of players remains intact, and we have now added two additional pieces to bolster an offensively challenged second unit.
Seriously?
They’ve played the majority of the season without Perkins and chemistry didn’t appear to be an issue. They’ve started games with 4 different players at Center so far this season and still have the best record in the Eastern Conference.
We had two glaring weaknesses on this team. A legitimate backup wing and scoring punch off the bench. This trade significantly improves our second unit with better scoring options. We also now have a big that can spread the floor a bit with his range which is another option we were lacking.
I’d be happy to tell the players that Perkins is not the sole carrier of the magical chemistry elixir. Of course, they already know this and don’t need to be told because at the end of the day, they all know this is a business.
by King Coebra on Feb 25, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
So now, they will be at best a 3 seed...
And expect Shaq to be the staring center and (?) the backup center – with JO on crutches.
This will be tough to watch
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
Ya, because Krstic hasn't been a starting quality Center for the past 3 years.
Who played LA incredibly well in last years playoff.
Man, this guy is going to suck coming off the bench.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I think "incredibly well" is probably a bit overstated...
He played okay, but shot 40% from the floor and allowed Bynum to be very productive scoring and on the boards.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Ok, he wasn't a liability?
Good enough?
He’s also be a bench player here, so my point is. He’s been good enough to be a pretty productive starting Center for a couple years now, I’m fairly confident he’ll be an even better bench Center.
Honestly, I think Krstic is right up there as one of the best back up Centers in the NBA now, second to Gortat.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Decent on offense, bad at rebounding and defense
You know who was a better backup C? Shaquille O’Neal. ;-)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
"Bad" is a stretch.
Let’s say not great. And again, defense is a system, he’s very young, and can learn a lot from playing with Garnett, if he’s of the right attitude to do so. That remains to be seen obviously, but let’s not jump to conclude he has no chance to improve on D just yet.
He averages under 6 rebounds a game, so I’ll give you that. But I think that weakness is offset a bit with what he can bring offensively.
Oh and by the way, we now have a 7fter who shoots 80% from the FT line, I cannot say enough about what that can do for a team in crunch time. In close, late games, you have a guy you can put on the court who’s only job will literally be to be big and catch the ball, and teams can’t instantly foul him like they can Perk and Shaq, or he’ll make them pay. Major asset there.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Krstic is pretty much purely average at rebounding
Not bad.
Not great.
It would be sweet if we could pickup Murphy – he’s a beast at rebounding.
I do agree about the FT shooting.
Late in games if you can put Rondo on the sideline (they can’t foul him) to pass in, and you have 4 guys he can pass to who can all make free throws, AND you don’t have to give up rebounding height to get that combo – that’s huge.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Doesn't Danny have to fill those three remaining roster spots?
He better fill those positions with veteran talent or else he’ll look bad to the public.
He says two of the spots, anyway, with a big man and a wing.
Another guard is a possibility, I presume depending on who comes available.
But there are other teams that will also want to sign the best players
No guarantee that the Celtics get the guys they want
Ainge: Celtics Were Great Even Without Perkins
I think there’s something going on that we don’t know about. lol
http://celticshub.com/2011/02/24/ainge-team-was-great-even-without-perkins/
If the Cs are "highly confident" that JO will be ready
for the playoffs, that changes things.
But I’ll believe that when I see it, thank you very much.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
You Really Nailed It Roy
Pierce said it best. It is about chemistry. Plenty of talented players in the league and I am sure we will get some good talend on the FA market in the next week or so. But you cannot replace the chemistry and the bond these guys felt for Perk. The Heat have plenty of talent but many of us have been saying all season that they will not win a title because they have not played long enough together. The Magic completely busted their team chemistry after 2009 and have not sniffed nor will sniff the finals again. Granted, the Big 4 are still in tact, but the team lost some of its identity and grit yesterday. If we win Banner 18, I will relish it because I am a lifelong Celtic fan and bleed Green. But it will not be as enjoyable without Perk.
Yeah, I know a lot of the players echoed similar concerns...
Rondo, Pierce, Delonte. I wrote the article last night, so I didn’t have the benefit of the morning papers and interviews.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I think Krstic and Green are both good guys, which will help.
I sure hope Pierce doesn’t mind bringing in a young stud behind him, rather than just a get-by veteran.
Celtics won the title first year together....
Chemistry is a KEY element to winning, but it doesn’t require multiple years together, especially when the skill sets of the new players fit well together….we’ll see who we add to what we just got, but based on the rumors as well as the pieces traded for, I think they have a very good shot at incorporating them quickly. Not adding core stars, but vital role players – Murphy/Kristic, Green, perhaps even Hamilton and possibly Baron Davis – there are going to be a lot of talented players bought out, the Celtics only need role player production to bolster their core.
by BillfromBoston on Feb 25, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Good Point about chemistry
But when the players left are livid over the deal, then it is obvious to me that the trade will affect chemistry this year. To play on this team requires mental toughness. Perk brought that every night and it does not show up on the stat sheet. So the new guys better have that attitude as well because this team does not take slackers or malcontents.
again 'livid' was Adrian W's word.
Most other descriptions and the vids I’ve seen suggest ‘upset’ and ‘sad’ would have been better, more appropriate words.
Just FYI – Jeff Green in particular comes with a stellar rep as a high-character guy. He was the team captain.
In many ways, both on and off the court, Green is like a younger, less polished Paul Pierce. You will like this guy.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I have always believed that Boston should go all out this year.
This year is their best chance for banner #18! Boston is actually the favorites to win it all before the trade. Even if the Spurs have the best record, the Celtics are the odds on favorite! Next year or 2 years from now you can never be sure.
Even if Boston, lost games they should have won, you can see the intensity and focus the players have. How important it is to win this year. And the belief that they realistically can win it all this season.
Now the chemistry is questioned. And not only that, the confidence and swagger they had might get shaky. They just might doubt themselves if they still can win the title.
Having the defense they need against the LeBrons of the league is more important than misplaced swagger.
The C’s top competition has changed—and Danny hasn’t missed a beat.
Scouting reports seem mixed
I’ve seen some that say he’s smart / works hard, very tough on 3s and smaller 4s, but struggles against big 4s. I’ve seen some that say he’s abused by PFs.
He's never been awful.
But he’s a bit out of position playing as a full time 4 in OKC.
Now that he’ll spend time at the 3 more, and switch to the 4 only dependent on match ups (i.e. going small ball against team like Orlando, Chicago, Miami, who don’t play bigger, more powerful PFs) I think will improve him.
He’s also, from what I hear around OKC, a very intelligent, high character guy who his teammates really loved and was a leader of that that. I’m supremely confident he’ll adapt to the system well and learn from the veterans. And as we’ve seen so many time before, great defenders is more about the system than the individual, the right attitude, the right approach, makes all the difference.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Let it go. Perk was not the best.
As much as I appreciate what Kendrick brought to the team, and his fierceness
on the court, he was not without flaws, flaws which limited the impact of our team
in this league. We are in a league where other teams are very fast. They have legs
that do not tire backchecking on defense, and are not offensive liabilities. Perk can’t do a fast break.
When a 39-year old Shaq is a far superior offensive center than your
starting 26 year old, something is wrong.
Perk’s defense was intense. The way he clogged up the paint will be missed.
But you have to give up something to get something new. Danny wants more points.
We need more scoring, guys. How many times did you see Perk’s hook shot hit the rim ? How many times did you see him setting screens called for foul, or drop the ball, or pull it under ? Let’s end the sentimentality. The argument can be strongly and
convincingly made that Mr. Ainge did the right thing. When you are offered Green,Krstic, and that pick for Perk and Nate, you know that opportunity is not likely to repeat itself.
Jeff Green is a stud. As a young player, he was shaped by the Thunder system. In our
system, expect Jeff to be more agressive in the paint. He “gets back” on defense.
He is a fast moving target for Delonte, and compliments Baby’s skill set by adding a missing piece. There is a good chance Baby and Green will be starters on this team after the Big 3 era. Green can relieve both Garnett and Pierce successfully. He’s big
enough for PF and nifty enough for SF. He’s 24.
Concerning Nate, Semih, Luke, Marquis, these guys are all plug-ins, with the exception
of Marquis who was a forced injury problem, they never were anything but cannon fodder, moveable pieces in the arrangement.
We’re bringing in at least two more veterans soon. Danny insists that Jermaine
will be back and very healthy, better than before. Danny is a believer in Jermaine O’Neal, as a part of this team. Like Danny says, “He’s only 31”.
Good luck Perk, but I like the trade.
I feel much better because Danny is a believer in JO
I mean the guy has already played I think 9 games this year, right? I am sure he is going to be playing like a spring chicken when he finally comes back and that he will be 100 percent dependable.
Yeah, his belief in JO disturbs me also.
Why Danny even mentions JO? When we can all see with our own eyes that his health is shot, when we see him at all.
I don't think more offense is the path to #18...
This trade made us worse on defense, worse on chemistry, and worse in rebounding. In other words, we weakened our two greatest strengths, and weakened what was already a deficiency.
I guess I’ll believe the stuff about JO when I see it. We’ve been assured multiple times this year that his return to health was imminent, just to have him suffering from the same issues. I like the guy, but I’m a little skeptical.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
we need better scoring off the bench, Roy
this team will not win playoff series in the East or a ring
without scoring from the bench. We need the bench points
to maintain leads achieved by our starting 5, which I may add
contains 4 hall of famers and Rondo still.
I just fundamentally disagree...
We won a title in 2008 without a great scorer off the bench. We made it to the Finals last year without one. We had the best record in the East this year with BBD in that role. I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to weaken your strengths to shore up a supposed deficiency that really hasn’t hurt all that much in the past.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Posey was a great scorer off the bench.
Not sure if you were paying attention.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
lol. Posey was the x factor off the bench
Clutch 3s, length, guards like Artest, doesnt need a shrink, takes offensive fouls. C’s missed that which is why they traded for Green at Perk’s expense. Scoring and spacing off the bench is what they need which you would hope Green will provide.
7.4 points on 41.8% shooting is "great"?
I guess Perk’s 7.3 points on 66% shooting in roughly equal minutes must be, what, other-worldly?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
With Shaq this year adding 9 points per game...
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
You got more than a "capable back up" though.
You got a dynamic and versatile scorer who can play 3 positions. He adds a versatility to that bench we haven’t seen since Posey left.
Green is a player, were he on this team from the start, would without a doubt in my mind, be a front runner for 6man of the year. I cannot say enough what his presence can do for this bench. They’re under the gun to develop some rhythm as a unit is such a short time, no doubt though. But the tools he brings to the table is something we just flat out haven’t had. At least since Posey, maybe ever.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Again, you got a lot more than someone who "serves the role well"
But you have to give value to get value.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
My point is the trade was not needed.
Parker is value and we all were reading yesterday how the Cavs wanted a big man for him. If the O’Neals are healthy, as DA seems to think, then send the Cavs Erdin for Parker. That is vaule for value. We keep Perk and preserver our defensive core. Use JO and Davis to end games. With West returning, we were all set under this scenario.
Perhaps.
But if Ainge wasn’t going to pay Perk 10mil, and was convinced someone else would (and Perk would take the money rather than accept 7mil from Boston) why not get a player like Green, and a useful 7fter back for him? Oh and a valuable 1st round pick too.
Not so bad, if you ask me.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Parker would have been adequate as a bench sub
so long as Pierce stayed healthy.
Green is good enough that, god-forbid, if Paul got hurt, we’d STILL have a great chance at the title.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Please knock on wood.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Team needed more offense...
…and the team is the same as the one that was 33-10 with Shaq a s starter…if you want to question Shaq being available for the playoffs fine, but that is different that saying the team is “worse” – Perk wasn’t here most of the year and the team was outstanding.
by BillfromBoston on Feb 25, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
You hit the nail squarely on the head
If Shaq is not healthy (I say forget about JO), then this trade makes the team weaker.
I see why people are skeptical of JO
But why trust that Perk will be fully healthy the rest of this season? Bad right knee, bad left knee, bad shoulder.
I think people are assuming healthy (i.e. first half of 2010 when he played his best ball of career) Perk for the stretch run – I don’t think that’s realistic.
The other thing is BBD has been a very adequate C in his career, this move lets them use that positional flexibility – since Green can play PF. Right now it’s been KG and BBD, and… Luke, that was a big drop off.
If the two C are healthy (and we don’t bring anyone in) we get a rotation of:
Rondo 35+ MPG
Ray / Pierce / KG 30+ MPG
West, Green, and BBD 20+ MPG
That leaves like ~40 minutes per game for the three or four centers to split (assuming they get Murphy). That’s probably a reasonable expectation across Shaq / JO / Murphy / Kristic as a group. And they can probably extend BBD a bit more at C and Green at PF if they want to reduce that dependency.
I don’t know that a rotation that puts Perk in for Murphy and Kristic and Parker in for Green is any better.
The bigger risk is Rondo, but I think any injury to starting guards or forwards is a show stopper anyways, and they are far enough ahead in the standings they can struggle through a regular season loss of Rondo without it being game over.
exactly.
He’s done a fine job there. But if we can minimize the need to put BBD at C, he can spell more of KG’s minutes at PF. And we avoid length matchup issues.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Its pretty clear that Danny's plan is to come out of next week
with 2 fully-healthy, competent big men in Krstic plus a buyout FA. IF he can land Murphy, that will give us Murphy and Krstic as two healthy bigs to get us through the regular season. That buys time to get Shaq 100% healthy and maybe even JO healthy too.
Having Green totally boosts our SF depth. Suddenly, assuming this takes shape the way DA wants, we will be VERY competent, two-deep at every position:
C: Shaq, JO?, Murphy?, Krstic <—- if healthy that’s EXTREMLY awesome set of bigs.
PF: KG, BBD, Green, JO?
SF: PP, Green, Wafer
SG: Ray, Wafer, Green, West, Bradley
PG: Rondo, West, Bradley
Obviously the ‘gambles’ that DA is making are where I’ve put question marks. We don’t know if JO will come back. We don’t know if he’ll land Murphy (or an equivalent big).
But if either of those things happen, the above is a VERY solid team with incredible depth.
And Danny says he’s going to pick up another wing and a guard as well as a big.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Again...
Murphy isn’t necessarily healthy. I’d put him in Perk’s category of “not fully recovered from injury yet”.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
everything i've seen seems to indicate he's pretty much fully healthy
do you have something otherwise?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
He's coming off multiple injuries...
… and I read a report several weeks ago saying that the Nets were concerned that his legs were completely shot. That could just be excuse-making from Avery Johnson, but since he’s looked terrible on the floor this year and hasn’t proven that he’s healthy, I’m not ready to call him any healthier than Perk yet.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
True statement.
But let’s be honest, as we’ve said, one of the Oneals has to be healthy this year, everyone can agree on that. Anything Murphy can bring would be a bonus, chip a few minutes away from Shaq, hit a couple shots, grab a few boards, sit back on the bench.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
The biggest question I have is this
How can anyone trust the Celtics when it comes to injuries and when players are going to recover?
can't
but you can make reasonable guesses about what’s going on.
Danny is not here to destroy the Celtics. His also not stupid and incompetent. He’s also not insane. It simply would NOT make any sense for him to deal both Perk and Semih if he was not very confident in his alternatives. We know one alternative is Krstic, and that’s solid, though not necessarily spectacular. I wouldn’t rate getting Krstic alone as enough to instill that amount of confidence. So it is reasonable to guess that Danny has more in his pocket than that.
He may have more knowledge than any of us about the state of Shaq or JO’s progress that makes him that confident.
He may have a sure-thing inside track on another big man that makes him that confident.
It could be a combination of those. Or, knowing the way Danny keeps things so close to the vest, it could be something we haven’t thought of.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
WOW
Larry Legend and Kevin McHale have got to be humbled to be mentioned in the same breath as Kendrik Perkins.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
"You take a team with twenty-five assholes and I'll show you a pennant. I'll show you the New York Yankees." - Bill "Spaceman" Lee
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 25, 2011 9:14 AM EST reply actions
Fair enough...
But the concept is the same: Danny has always expressed a desire to trade core players to soften a team’s decline.
I’m of the opinion that you should maximize championship chances, stay loyal to your core players (within reason), and worry about rebuilding when the time comes (and when that time does come, you need to start over, instead of trying to rebuild while being a mediocre lower-seed playoff team.)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Constructing a championship team in the present and building towards the future aren’t mutually exclusive.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
"You take a team with twenty-five assholes and I'll show you a pennant. I'll show you the New York Yankees." - Bill "Spaceman" Lee
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 25, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
No, but the focus needs to be on one or the other...
… and yesterday, the focus was on the future, to the detriment of the future. A coach shouldn’t ever answer “we’ll see” when asked if his championship favorite is better or worse due to a trade.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Let me rephrase my post...
Into one you can more easily understand. Putting together a championship caliber team, and building for the future can be done at the same time. Also, I’m confident Doc said “we’ll see”, because the team is not done making moves. Hard to comment on moves not yet made.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
"You take a team with twenty-five assholes and I'll show you a pennant. I'll show you the New York Yankees." - Bill "Spaceman" Lee
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 25, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
I still disagree...
“Putting together a championship caliber team” isn’t the same as “maximizing your title chances”.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I see a difference...
… between “putting together a championship caliber team” and “maximizing a team’s title chances”. I think Danny should have pursued option #2.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
It is interesting
Danny and the ownerrs seem much more convinced that this will work than Doc and the players. But maybe that is always the way it is when big moves are made 2/3 through a season.
I think you are snipping Doc a bit.
He said, “I think so.” right next to that “We’ll see.” in the interview I’ve seen.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
He said whoever gets the best player in the deal wins...
… and he said it’s an open question regarding who is better, Green or Perk. My point is, trades to break up a championship roster in mid-season should only happen when there’s a clear-cut net gain.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
When the Sox traded Nomar, they didn't get the best player in the deal
Yet, they won the championship. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.
Cabrera, at that time, was playing better than Nomar.
He was huge for that team.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Cabrera:
Proof that defense and chemistry wins championships. ;-)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Haha. Well played sir.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Depends who you ask.
But ya, I’d be willing to concede that point.
But I’m not sure we can compared Basketball and baseball.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I didn't take the time to read the other comments.....
So maybe this has already been addressed.
You said:
Rather than stay loyal to his veterans, Danny looked at Perk’s impending free agency, and decided that he needed to get something for him rather than risk losing him.
The funny thing is, we traded for a player in Green that is also a FA to be, and he might also be “unsignable.”
I don’t understand why so many fans are having trouble understanding this. We have other options for center. Both on the roster, and guys that we can pick up. Shaq will be healthy soon. We’ve won a lot of games this year without Perkins. The problem is, it appears Danny was having a hard time finding a backup SF that had any upside. Green has that. Danny already said that Green can play the 4 like Posey did to close out games. He is also insurance for our starting SF that isn’t a spring chicken, is banged up already, and plays WAY too many minutes.
I won’t say we won this trade going away, but based on the fact that Perkins probably won’t ever be 100% this season, I like it. Besides, this team’s problem in recent weeks has been offense, not defense. Maybe Green can bail us out with his offense a few times. That alone might make this trade worth it.
Shaq will be healthy soon?
If so, for how long?
It’s not like he was a great defender or rebounder…
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
Okay, let's assume "worst case".....
Shaq and JO aren’t around much for the playoffs.
We’ve put some pretty good defensive teams on the court without both of them, and without Perkins, this year. You say Shaq isn’t very good, yet we were good with him starting. So couldn’t be plug a guy like Krstic or Murphy and be just fine?
If they have to depend on Krstic or Murphy for big minutes at the center position
this team will be toast. Either Shaq or JO are going to have to provide 20-25 minutes a game. There is no way around it.
And I have faith
That one of them will. And don’t forget, we can still go small with Baby/KG for some minutes, and KG/Green for some minutes.
We’ll be fine inside. And by fine, I mean no worse off then we were. We still aren’t a great rebounding team, but we weren’t when we had Perk either.
i just don't trust
Shaq and JO will be healthy enough for us in the long run…plus as soon as Shaq enters the game he gets a foul,what good is he?always hurt and in foul trouble…sigh
by nanaluvsball on Feb 25, 2011 2:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why did we need a small forward with "upside"?
What’s wrong with Anthony Parker? We still could have added two buyouts, without having to move Perk. I like Green as a player, but I wonder about strengthening the backup 3 while weakening the starting center.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Because.....
We struggle on offense FAR more often then defense. Because PP has been banged up all year. Because of all our older guys, PP looks the “oldest”. He needs to be able to sit on the bench and rest. Even in big games.
And because we need another option that can guard the bigger 3’s in the league. I don’t want Anthony Parker guarding Lebron or Durant. Do you?
Our offense was fine
We’re #1 in eFG%, for instance. Our main problem is turnovers, and I don’t expect Green to help all that much in that regard.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Offense was hit or miss...
Absolutely the most efficient offense on the whole (dropping precipitously since Shaq’s been out) but they still have tremendous offensive power-outages. This is a system, jump-shooting offense. It was better with Shaq at the 5 because of the attention he commands and the fact that they can go to the post when jumpers aren’t falling. Jeff Green has legs and can attack the lane, as well as ISO/Post on the baseline to attack the rim.
These are positives – the negatives are possible chemistry destabilization and the inability to recapture it with some new pieces.
by BillfromBoston on Feb 25, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Umm ... Perk was only in for 12 games.
We lead the league in FG percentage because our Big 4 (plus role models) run the most efficient half-court offense in the league.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
We lead in FG%
But overall, our offense is not efficient, currently 13th in the league. Before KG got hurt and Perk came back, we were around 5th-8th. Too many turnovers, not enough trips to the line or three-pointers.
Lost rebounding AND defense - (ask Dwight)
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
If we had swept LA in the regular season
would DA have still made this trade?
No.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Exactly what I've been thinking
And agree with Sizzlack.
I'm guessing that trading Perk was still in the cards.
The reason Danny gave held true with or without Daniels’ injury. Probably would have been for different position players.
Amazing that they were able to keep the prospects of it so under the radar.
by Finkelskyhook on Feb 25, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Probably not.
Danny might still have unloaded Luke and Semih in favor of some healthier bigs.
But if Daniels is healthy he probably doesn’t go hunting for Green.
But on the other hand, there is a strong possibility that OKC is the one who reached out to Danny to inquire after Perk – they’d made it known they were going to target him in free agency.
If they did, and offered Green, even if Daniels hadn’t got hurt, he might still make that trade. This deal has just too much value coming in the C’s direction. I don’t know how he would have rejected it.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Right, that seems highly likely.
They came after Perk, and in light of what has happened, Ainge couldn’t say no. Seems the most plausible.
Makes sense for OKC to push to get him now, acquiring his bird rights goes a long way to enabling them to outbid Miami next year, and with Ibaka coming along so well, Green was an expendable (and highly valuable) piece they could use.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
It's a gamble.
But a calculated one.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Ainge said in the interview:
“Krstic should be here by Saturday and be ready to play,” said Ainge. “Hopefully we’ll have another few roster spots filled in the next week or so.”
http://celticshub.com/2011/02/24/ainge-team-was-great-even-without-perkins/
Does that mean Green is not gonna play next game yet?
Looking forward to it.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I think the bottom line comes down to this
Those supporting the trade believe that Shaq and JO will be healthy and all of the new guys will be fully integrated into the system quickly.
Those who don’t support the trade don’t think Shaq and JO will be healthy enougn and don’t believe there is enough time left in the season to integrate everyone.
Only time will tell and it will be fun to watch.
EXACTLY...
We don’t know what will happen – what we do know is this: there ARE going to be some additions made soon that will add necessary skills to positions of need. We WERE the best team in the NBA with Shaq starting a majority of the season…our chemistry was fantastic…
After that, we do not know how the end of the season will play out, but there are plenty of pieces there – new and incumbent – to be optimistic about.
by BillfromBoston on Feb 25, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
The Hinge
I agree that is where it hinges. I am not happy Perk is gone, but I’m willing to wait and see (what else is there to do?). The thing is, I don’t see or hear anything about anyone they can pick up as a free agent to bolster the center spot. And frankly as positive a defensive contribution JO can make, he can’t make up the toughness deficit. I think Shaq on the other hand can make up the toughness. I am very nervous depending on these guys but hopefully Shaq who is very competitive and now has even more on the line regarding his legacy (he ain’t gonna be the back up anymore) will step it up here.
I'm not sure
Shaq and JO’s health matters that much. Baby and KG will play 36-40 mpg in playoffs, so there are only a few other minutes to be filled, which can be done by Kristic and Green and even Pierce.
I think the bottom line is this: we are not any worse defensively and we have more offense off the bench.
If at least one of Shaq and JO can't give this team 20-25 minutes a game, they won't make the finals
Ya, that's probably true.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
And that was the case with Perkins.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Agree with this.
Especially if Danny can add one more decent big man off the buyout list.
If we hit the playoffs with no Shaq or JO, but have at least competent centers like Krstic or Murphy, and the Big 4 are all healthy, we can still be a threat to go all the way. Especially if our bench scoring is boosted by having a Jeff Green backing up Pierce.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Note - I'm agreeing with Ersatz
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I can't wait...
for this trade to come around in a few weeks’ time… when everyone settles down and this move pulls through as Ainge predicted, alot of people will be turning here and start praising all these new players and the trade move… i can see it now ;)
He does have a point in the “offense” side of our game… Case in point, our offensive collapse in the 4th Q of the Denver game. I still hope there is a way we could get Rip Hamilton – the wing – for one of the 3 slots! He’s an all star champ. And i’m sure we’ll get another Forward/Center type of player which still gives us more than enough bigs! Versatility on our rotation is what Ainge sees with this move. The possibility of shuffling forwards as centers for more offensive options especially with the 2nd unit.
This will also preserve PP’s & KG’s health in time for the post season which is definitely more important.
I love Perk too on this team… but we have to look forward now and stop whining. I love this game :P Go C’s!
the perk trade has me thinking about how really close we were last year to losing ray. do you think we would be sitting so pretty with caron butler here? i can’t see integrating all these new guys into our system without serious results. one comment i kept hearing all year— we don’t use half our sets because shaq,et.al. don’t know them like perk. and like all have said, shaq and jo are on medicare which is itself in danger with the republicans. we are counting on these 2 guys-one ina boot and the other, coming off surgery? i do like danny and god knows, he thinks outside the box. let’s hope he pulls one out because if he does he will become st. danny.
I truly hope the 64 percent of us who don't like the trade
are clueless and proven wrong at the end of the playoffs
If you polled the Ray Allen trade at that time.
More than 64% disagreed with it.
I remember the “We traded Delonte and a 5 pick for a has been with no ankle!” talk being all over the place.
Fans are good at one thing, and very good at it. Severe visceral reactions.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Ray Allen trade, however, was put into context when KG was acquired
And, all of that happened in the offseason giving the team a chance to get to know each other and giving them a full training camp and full season to become a cohesive unit. While I know there will be other guys signed, there is not the luxury of time this time around. That is the huge difference here.
I don't disagree with that.
Just saying fan polls are misleading, I’d say 40% of that 64% change their tune in under 2 weeks time. Fans are great at gut check reactions.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
yeah whats funny is there was exactly one guy who posted we just got Ray Allen so we can get Garnett
Sound of slappng ones own back..that was me.
Actually, it wasn’t. The Garnett trade evoked a similar spate of wailing about familiar disloyalty and whatnot. The only difference was the victim – Al Jefferson in this case. As soon as a favorite is traded, it’s like they died.
People need to realize that Ainge’s job isn’t to fall in love with individual players. It’s to craft the best team he can on the floor within the business constraints that he operates within.
+1
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
"You take a team with twenty-five assholes and I'll show you a pennant. I'll show you the New York Yankees." - Bill "Spaceman" Lee
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 25, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
I think people are voting their true feelings
I did not read the article. I did not like the deal yesterday and like it less this morning. This is the true reaction of the fans, regardless of the blog post the poll accompanies, I believe this is how Celtics blog members feel at this moment. Again, I hope those against are proven to be totally out in left field.
I also think people are voting more with their hearts... I'm angry and upset too
but I still like the trade
by incoherent. on Feb 25, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
You didn't read my article, vinnie?
I’m hurt.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Did you read the reaction yesterday?
Or check out the polls on boston.com?
The fanbase is largely against this deal. I’m not sure that that matters a whole lot, but that’s what the thinking in Celtics Nation is right now.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Fans are illogical.
They don’t think about the business or the future. They react on emotion only.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Not all of them.
But I’d say a large majority that are agaisnt it are working off pure emotion and loyalty to Perk. And believe me, I get that. I’m just saying, if you step away from that a bit, you can see how this makes some sense, both from a Basketball, and business stand point.
Assess the trade logically, remove your heart from the equation, and things look difference. Something most fans have a hard time doing.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I just don't get why those against the trade are working off emotion, but those for are not
Bottom line is more than 63 percent don’t like the trade. I hope we are all wrong.
That, we can both agree on.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Not entirely true...
I think it’s pretty valid to focus primarily on the present with a team positioned like the Celtics are. That isn’t necessarily an emotional or illogical argument. In fact, I’d say it’s a pretty sound one.
That said, fan reaction doesn’t matter a bit. Danny needs to use his judgment to make the best deals he can, regardless of whether they will be popular or not. (This is one of the reasons that I disliked the trade to bring Antoine back. It sold tickets, and made fans happy — including me — but it weakened the team’s future, when we should have been rebuilding rather than trying to sell tickets.)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
But here's the thing Roy.
I don’t necessarily disagree with you, and you make some great points, as usual.
But, ask yourself this question, if at the end of the day, Danny can make a move that, not only makes this team better this year, or at the least just as capable of winning it all, but only significantly improves the future of this tea,. doesn’t he have to do it? Isn’t that his job?
Can you at least concede, that although there is risk in that, due to the health of the Oneals. If he’s right, Shaq stays healthy, he’s accomplished just that?
Isn’t that exactly what we want out of our GM?
To me, anyone who says no to that, is someone, once that window is shut and the Celtics are at the bottom of the league again; would be hopping right off the band wagon and cheering for Chicago or Miami. (Disclaimer: I’m in no way calling you a band wagoner Roy, just trying to make a point.)
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Oh, if Danny is right, then he gets an A...
If we really suffer no downgrade from Perk to Shaq, and from Shaq to Krstic, then we essentially picked up Jeff Green and a Clippers pick for free. If our defense and rebounding somehow doesn’t suffer, but our offense and versatility improves, then again, what’s not to like?
I’m just a little skeptical. A month ago, the team was concerned about JO delaying surgery because he wouldn’t have time to get healthy for the playoffs. A week ago, the report was that Shaq’s injury wasn’t responding to treatment. Now, they’re both medical miracles, apparently, because they’re expected to be 100% going forward.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Fair point.
Only time will tell. I’m just not willing to call Danny a fool just yet. It’s a calculated risk, and I have to believe he’s sat down with Brian and Eddie before every thinking about this trade. If they didn’t have confidence that both ONeals will be contributing in the playoffs, then you are 100% right, it was a foolish move.
I simply have to believe the medical staff gave Danny some assurances that both those guys will be ready to go come May and June. I just can’t see how he would do this if that was not the case, Danny’s not a fool, and he’d have to realize what he is risking were he not to have those assurances.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Its a gamble for sure....
but the outcome of the season now depends on the health of both Shaq and J.O.
If they are both healthy and can play Danny’s trade yesterday and the pending moves he will make acquiring players via buyout in the coming days will I think make the C’s a better team heading into the playoffs.
If J.O. and Shaq breakdown I think Dannys moves have a chance to backfire on him at least for this season, though it still helps the C’s long term.
Just my 2 cents though.
Despite what other polls show, this poll is tainted by the article it's linked too
it’s science
by incoherent. on Feb 25, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Who cares?
If anything, this poll is friendlier for DA than others have been. Perhaps that’s because people are putting on their White Knight armor after a very popular GM and former player was criticized. But really, what does fan opinion matter at all?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
This is too gloom-and-doom
Too many of us (myself included) are very emotionally attached to Perk. After I took a few hours off from thinking about the trade, I don’t think it is bad. Yes, we lose some interior defense…but we gain a lot with having a potential stud in Green (who has been in systems ill-designed for him at Georgetown and OKC) back up the 3 and 4. Also, we were kind of okay without Perk this season. Throw in the likely pick-up of a guy like Troy Murphy (who boards better than Perk), and maybe Gadzuric or Dalembert or Camby, and I think we have a much better team. Yes, Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum will now do better against us. But the rest of the league probably won’t…and LA and Orlando will face more challenges vs. us in other positions now. Remember the championship run…our starting 5 at the end of most games was Posey at 4 and KG at 5. We can now run Green (who is better than Posey) at the 4 in those situations.
Well if Perk really wanted to be in Boston...
He should’ve told his agent that he would agree to take the extension deal and not test the free agent market after this season. It;s not as if he didn;t have a choice.
So his only choice was to take a low-ball offer well below his value?
Perk repeatedly said he wanted to stay in Boston on a reasonable deal. Unfortunately, the deal the Celtics could offer him at the time wasn’t reasonable.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
So you're saying his staying in Boston was condition based?
If he truly wants to stay in Boston, then don;t attach any conditions, low ball offers included.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, everything has its price.
But the CBA-restriced extension offer was not a market price. It was not set by the supply/demand of either the Celtics OR Perkins. It had nothing to do with anything, really.
If this chance to get Green had not arisen, there is a good chance they would have made a higher, more reasonable offer in summer when they could. Unfortunately, its highly likely that at least two teams would have bid even more for him. At THAT point, he would have had the opportunity to ‘show his Green Colors’ by taking the ‘home town discount’.
The C’s were likely never going to give up 8-10M of cap space for Perkins but they probably would have gone to 7-ish.
The contract was an issue, but the bigger issue was, imho, the opportunity to get Green who is just an enormous upgrade for our bench, without too serious a drop off in talent at C. Danny would have been negligent to the organization and to the fans to not take it.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
cheap cheap cheap...what's another 3 million per year...look what Scal got...for 5 years
Is it Soup Yet?
different situations
as i’ve said elsewhere, in this case, the contract problem isn’t the dollars – its the cap hit and the calendar – how it would affect the long term plan.
But like I just above, the contract problem was just a ‘background issue’. The real issue was the basketball issue: No depth at SF behind Pierce.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
the key to beating ORL is to let Dwight score and stop everyone else
Needing Perkins for ORL is an out dated theory
Truth.
And if Shaq is healthy, he’s probably the second best player in Basketball at bothering Howard. Oh and Davis has played him pretty well for a couple years now.
If anything, I think it helps us against Orlando (and I don’t expect to see them in the playoff anyway, but that’s neither he nor there) Green is a guy who can play the 3 or 4 and guard the Turkoglu and Ryan Anderson’s extremely well.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I think ........
Danny has improved some aspects of the roster with yesterdays trade since I think Green is a upgrade at the back up small forward position over Daniels and Krstic is a upgrade as a back up center over Erden at least in the short term.
We did lose Perk but if Shaq and J.O. get healthy and return and stay healthy the rest of the season, though there is a slight drop defensively without Perk, the 2 Oneals are not to shabby defensively (especially J.O.) and do offer much more of a scoring punch then Perk does so it can possibly be wash at center.
Now if Danny can also add 2 more bigs for example like maybe Murphy along with a defensive center like Camby or Dalembert as well as a combo 2 & 3 wing player to fill in the last 3 remaining roster spots.
The roster would then be deep, talented and would be very versatile with players capable of playing multiple positions:
Point guard: Rondo, Delonte, Bradley
Shooting guard: Allen, Delonte, Wafer
Small forward: Pierce, Green, Wafer
Power forward: KG, Baby, Green, Murphy, Camby
Center: Shaq, J.O. Krstic, Murphy, Dalember or Camby
But again the success of the Celtics heading forward depends on the health of Shaq and J.O. and the moves Danny makes to fill out the remaining 3 roster spots.
Though questions do remain if things break right which is possible the C’s could have a deeper more talented team then they had prior to the trade deadline as they head toward the playoffs.
Dalembert or Camby aren't happening
by nba is the worst on Feb 25, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Jeff Green on all accounts is an extremely level headed player who is great in the locker room
Chemistry will not be an issue and on top of that we wont get any more technicals from perk in tough situations
Truth.
Actually, I’ve heard a lot of talk in OKC about how they were sad to see him go, and that he’s been a huge leader for that team. A guy everyone in the locker room really respected.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
88 percent of the fans on the OKC blog think this is a good or okay deal for them
10 percent think it is a bad deal.
that is fine vinnie, it has 0% bearing on our situation
by incoherent. on Feb 25, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
but Sizzlak isn't talking about whether fans think it is a good deal or not
Fans can love a player and still recognize that it is best for their team to deal him.
Hell, sometimes fans want their best player to leave just to finally watch him succeed in the playoffs (Ray Bourque) …
I loved Perk – please note how often I’ve been defending attacks on his play – but this is a good deal. For both the C’s and for Perk. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt like hell. It is a gut punch.
But its a good deal.
Green is a great player. He’s going to be a great Celtic.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
How can you call Jeff Green a "great" player?
The word “great” used to mean something. Now a guy scoring 15 points a game is a “great” player. A guy shooting 30 percent from behind the arc is a “great” player. Jeff Green is a good player. There is a chance he will become a great player or there is a chance that he won’t improve at all. Jeff Green is not a “great” player.
Semantics.
All depends how you define “great”.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
"Green" is great...
Just not Jeff Green. ;-)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
You're opinion then.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I know that Jeff Green is not a great NBA player
He may be some day, but he is not great now.
You're opinion.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
My opinion.
Based on just knowing the player and following him and understanding how he has been mis-utilized as a stretch 4 in OKC. And how I expect him to be much better utilized here in Boston.
I could give a rats what a player’s ppg is. It does not define whether a player is ‘good’ or ‘great’.
In my opinion.
My comment there was all about how fans can love a player yet be okay with a trade.
Yet you jump on my use of the word ‘great’?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Really?
I don’t know what to think of this trade but to compare it to trading Larry Bird or Kevin McHale is just beyond absurd. I love Perk – he is not, nor he is close, to Bird or McHale.
To repeat myself...
Sigh. Nobody was saying that Perk and Bird are equivalent. It’s an analogy. Danny always said that he’d have no problem making a cold business decision over loyalty if it improved the team in the future (even if it hurt in the short-term), and the examples he always gave were Bird and McHale. On a smaller scale, this is an example of that philosophy at work.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
You are right. That's certainly obvious in how Danny does business
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
That's why no one here is a GM for a basketball team..
You can’t be too emotional in business. And the NBA is..well.. basketball & business.
OH CMON !
33-10 without perk
4-3 with him
were getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy to emotional
acting like yall females or something
i love perk but if you think paul isnt more valuable you guys have to be kidding me this move was made or 1 reason
SAVE THE CAPTAIN FROM WEARING DOWN also i think many at this blog or not valuing shaq & i f danny says j.o is coming along great we have to believe him
were not losing toughness ask anyone who comes in the pain if shaq is soft
j.o’s a shotblocker the combo of the oneals will make up for that emotional factor
but i think guys hating danny is 99.9999999999999 siding with thier heart were are MORE TALENTED than we were yesterday ,teams used to play 3 on 5 on defence now with shaq j.o & kristic u have to pay attention to them we’ll still have the same defensive intensity & now were that much better offensivly!!! guys come to terms
j.green is in green
oh and u do know leon power started in more games in the 08 finals than perk right?
I wonder when a more positive and hopeful story comes here...
…to comment on. Hehe. Great article though Mr. Hobbs! But i think we need to rally everybody once again back to 1 boat. If our C’s need adjustment to the new acquisitions then so do we, the fanatics!
I would imagine one of our many fantastic writers is already coming up with a pro-jeff green article
looking forward to it
by incoherent. on Feb 25, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Or probably start another guessing game on who will best fit the last 3 roster spots?
Or who’s still available to begin with…. We do know that Danny’s leaning towards the forward or wing area… Is it still Murphy? Parker? Is Rip totally impossible already now that he wasn’t bought out by Detroit?
I'd like an authoritative medical update
on JO and Shaq.
That’s what the season is coming down to. :-(
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
yeah but guys are acting like we dont have
4 all stars
paul who is going to benifit the most come playoff time
a top 5 maybe even 3 pg
best shooter of all time
defensive presence of KG (who can still score)
a future hall of famer & a 4 time champion in shaq which is more than capable of getting the job done
a better bench now
i cant see how kendrick was THAT MUCH OF A DIFFRENCE MAKER
if 1 of the big 4 was stuggling or hurt even with perk we wouldnt win it all
it all depends on the big 4 not perk
by stylo617617 on Feb 25, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Unfortunately, most of the staff is pretty down on this trade right now...
… but somebody will come along to add some positive perspective, I have no doubt.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
That's understandable.. Doncha worry.. in a few weeks' time, this blog site will be back "up'!
…so will our C’s ;)
Well lets get something positive up there...
if only to attempt to erase some of the pain we’re all feeling
by incoherent. on Feb 25, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Chemistry
While the trade is a gamble, I think the disruption to chemistry is overstated here. Of course Perk was a vital part of the team’s success the past few years, but they did pretty well without him in the lineup this year. If the argument is that the league recognizes a big part of what led the C’s to the best record in the East was their chemistry, they did the majority of that without Perk, so all that chemistry remains. Adding Jeff Green to the bench is a huge infusion of talent, something that is very difficult to do, I think we will notice that energy almost immediately.
Shaq’s health of course is key, but with Kristic, Baby, perhaps a buyout big and maybe Jermaine, the C’s should be ok across the frontline. Where they were weak., especially after the Daniels injury, was off the bench. This year is not last year, so whatever we lacked last year in terms of rebounding, matchups, etc. may not be as important. Chicago and Miami don’t present problems for the C’s in the post, but rather with their athleticism, especially at the wings. Perk had only begun to re-assimilate and it was clear, he was not an energy boost as he was still suffering the effects of rehab, that is, a lack of explosiveness.
I think we need to see who else is brought in, and realize the core components to the chemistry and the record of the 1st half are still on the team. Danny is just bringing in some reinforcements so Pierce, Ray, KG, etc. are not worn down by the time the playoff run arrives. The C’s will be different, but should be deeper and more versatile now.
What lays on Danny's desk............
is alot more information then we all have to make an informed decision……that’s what makes him smarter then we are and more informed. Danny has been good for this team….so the folly comment was imho was for sizzle….he knows what he’s doing and not flying by the seat of his pants…..he’s good….very good.
i second that...
…may i remind everyone that it was Danny who saw something special in Rondo when Doc couldn’t (at that time)
Well, I figured my first paragraph was a pretty large disclaimer to that effect...
Danny knows more about basketball than anybody on this board. That said, we’re all allowed to have opinions. (Also, the title was a nerdy reference to Seward’s Folly (an acquisition that originally was heavily criticized, but turned out to look pretty good in hindsight. I’m hoping this trade pays similar dividends, even though I disagree with it.)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
We assume he knows:
1. Shaq injury not that bad and just resting him for the home stretch;
2. JO’s rehab is ahead of schedule;
3. No way to meet Perk’s contract demands in the off seasons so get something of value;
4. He has some level of committment from some FA’s to come here (e.g Murphy);
yes to all 4
and even it was only a yes to 3 you pretty much have to make the same trade
by incoherent. on Feb 25, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
When you assume
You make an ASS out of U and ME.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
Thanks Po. And I like my coffee strong.
Geeze….I would never have guessed we would be talking about this today. I would rather be talking about how Perk got a T last night and we win by 20 with Parker on the way. I really thought that would be the topic….
Any news form the "sources"?
Can we find out who we’re looking at besides Murphy, Parker… Powe? Hmm… Kapono? Err..
I’m thinking about the last year. When Cavs traded to Big Z to Wizards, after some time he bought out himselft and returned to Cavs.
Maybe that’s possible with Perkins?
Has anyone thought about it?
It won't happen...
OKC acquired Perk to play him, not to buy him out. If they did waive him, a team with cap space or with a large trade exception (Cleveland, Denver, Toronto) would pick him up.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I thought buyout pickups have to be at the minimum?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Sheed is coming back for the playoffs
There’s no doubt about it now.
I’m gonna miss Perk but this is a trade you have to make. Perk wasn’t interested in a contract extension and planning to test the free agency waters next season. Danny knew he wasn’t going to be able to pay what other teams were going to throw at him so rather than letting him walk he gets a top talent in Jeff Green and the Clippers’ (scratching my head at that Mo Williams – Baron Davis trade) #1 pick.
Youtube “Jeff Green”. It will make you feel better.
No.
Sheed is done.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Rasheed Wallace - "I want another shot at Lakers in the finals"
he said that a month ago.
by whambulance on Feb 25, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
Lots of denials...
… including from Sheed himself yesterday.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Has there ever been a Celtics trade in which the Celtics community immediately felt it was a good move? Not even when we brought Garnett was the pulse of this blog a positive one, mainly because we were crying about Al Jefferson.
by BudweiserCeltic on Feb 25, 2011 11:15 AM EST reply actions
Pitino, much as I hate him, may have had a point.
See Roy’s signature above.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
This was a classic hoodie move.
I love Perk. Yes, it was emotional to see this happen, but… seriously, Perk has not been right physically. He is not the same and won’t be until next year.
Also I also don’t blame Danny or the organization for realizing that Perk would be gone at seasons end. Further, Perk would never start over Shaq this year. Shaq has played great basketball thus far and Perk (being injured) had less of a chance of making an impact this season. What would he get 18 minutes a game once Shaq came back?
For those who say number 18 is gone and it was dumb to break up a team that is in first place I have a question for you. Has Perk helped this team this year? No, I believe it was Shaq and company that did that. So, instead collecting a paycheck and bolting on the organization once the big three leave, Danny used this asset to acquire a young player with upside, along with a backup center. Green can help this club this year and for years to come. Danny is looking out for the C’s, not himself. Most GM’s in his position would have rode this wave and been gone when the crap hit the fan.
I realize that Perk was popular, but emotional fans and emotional players can influence management to leave things alone until the team sucks and has nothing left. This was a tough call for management and I think they made the best decision for the organization. Instead of ripping Danny you should thank him.
Anyone remember L. Malloy?
see my post waaaaaay up above.
LOL -totally agree.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I am/was emotionally "attached" to Perk as anyone here..I slept like crap lat night and Im a 51 year old man for heavens sake... HOWEVER
1. How can it not be obvious that Danny Ainge feels that Shaq, JO, Kristic, Baby, and KG at “center” is way way enough???? There are only 48 minutes to share. Playoff games will be seperated by days. JO is a good defender by the way. Even with Perk back we usually used Baby at the end of games. Im not there in the locker room but they must feel JO will be back and actually feel confident about it
2. For Perk you get Green who imho is a fine young player who will be a great backup to PP and KG. Kristic is not that bad, and we get a first rounder. Lets not talk about Nate who is completely a waste of space with Delonte back
3. We have roster space to add to whatever depth we feel like we need for margin of safety whether that is Murphy or whoever
Its going to be ok. We will win this year and you will have Green to carry forward. Any young center out there will know they are wanted. By April this board will have converted to a positive bias
Here's our Green:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojAJgQOzJ44&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuyvoIwceeE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCoCdImJHxk&feature=related
(dunk on Posey) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWJbornl46k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qfaqicJddg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okWrWEC4Fho&feature=related
(drive & dunk on Duncan) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXCtJROTgy8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRJMuQ6MkrE&feature=relmfu
more green minded stuff..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkdf_C6502A&feature=relmfu
DEFENSE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU3lssEBhvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpVYt7CAbYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h23-19PiRxY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSubPqMqmog&feature=related
interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XO3crA3MhI&feature=related
NENAD KRSTIC:
It's pointless analyzing done deals!
Here are our 2 new players… and i don’t know about you, but these guys are great pick ups too ya know ;)
It’s pointless analyzing done deals……when nobody knows who else we will sign to our roster.
by bigboyinboston on Feb 25, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Here here.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Agree...
Greena and Krstic are pretty good players and like I said elsewhere more importantly upgrades over Daniels and Erden.
If Ainge can add 2 more bigs like Murphy and a defensive big man like Camby or Dalembert and another wing player to the current roster and if Shaq and J.O. can get healthy the C’s still have a great shot at banner 18 this year.
then he's perfect!
a requirement by the celtics! lol
by jaimsitecom on Feb 25, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
I heard on the radio yesterday ...
on WEEI someone say the C’s may have interest in Camby and there are rumors he is going to be bought out (as is the case very year with Camby) since he is a nice veteran big man that many teams want to acquire.
Hope its true as he would be a nice pick up.
I hope not...
… because I think Camby is more likely to sign in Miami than Boston. Honestly, I hope the only big man to be bought out is Murphy, and that he signs here. We don’t need our competitors getting better, too.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Id like to see...
with all the health questions surrounding Shaq and J.O. the C’s fill 2 of last 3 open roster spots with 2 bigs.
Murphy would be a good pick up especially offensively but in addition to him it would be nice after the loss of Perk if the C’s could acquire a strong, big, low post defender (that Murphy is not).
Someone like Camby or Dalembert would be perfect.
I actually would have wanted
Dalembert over Perkins. So if they can get him with Green all the better.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
That wasn't my point
he’s a 10X the offensive player though.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Its a bonus ...
that Dalembert would be better on offense then Perk, but the reasoning to acquire him would be for him to help pick up the slack on defense with Perk gone, not to help the C’s offensively…though it would be a net plus.
I watched Dalembert through his entire Philly career
He blocks shots and grabs boards, but he is not a smart defensive player. He often gets out of position, and even this deep into his career, he has a fairly low basketball IQ.
Perk is a substantially better fundamental defender.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I agree with this.
I’m not as high on D’bert as some.
I think Murphy would, in the C’s system, do fine on defense, as will Krstic. This system is so solid and KG is the real anchor. He makes any C next to him look better.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I like Murphy..
and hope the C’s sign him as rumored, but if they do sign him they will still have 2 more roster spots open and since Murphy and Krstic are not a great low post defenders and Shaq and J.O.’s health are in question Id like to see 1 of the final roster spots go to another big if Danny can find a way to sign one via buyout.
Preferably Id like a defensive minded center who can guard the likes of Bynum, Howard etc.
Someone in the mold of Dalembert, Camby or any other legit center with size and low post defensive skills.
Just my 2 cents though.
Joel P. might be the best bet...
… although he hasn’t really been the same after coming back from injury. However, I do wonder if multiple free agents would want to compete for playing time.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Considering we lost Perks defensive toughness...
I think Dalembert would be a nice acquisition since he is a tough, physical type defender also.
He is not as physically tough or great a defender as Perk of course but he would help fill the void Perk left defensively.
Just my 2 cents though.
that's fair
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
word on the street
says that Dalembert’s not being bought out. Which makes sense, since the Kings are barely over the cap. A buyout wouldn’t save them any money.
Evans Clinchy of NESN...
is reporting that the Daniels trade opens up the chance for the kings to buy out Dalemburt.
Hope its the case and the C’s can get him as he would be a great pickup.
Its also possible...
Ainge made a back room deal to send Daniels to the Kings with the understanding the Kings would buy out Dalembert and allow him to sign with the C’s???
I have to believe that is this case.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
I don't buy it...
What’s the incentive for Sacramento? And what binds Dalembert to the deal?
I hope it’s the case, because Dalembert is a legitimate 5 (even as flawed as he is), but I’m not getting my hopes up.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
So why did they trade Daniels?
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
SAK had to add cash.
They were under the 75% rule which says teams must have a payroll of at least 75% the total salary cap.
So for the Kings, they get to add the salary they need without giving up any major assets. For the Celtics, they save money for a player who couldn’t help the team the rest of the year anyway.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Fair enough
that could be the case.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Also...
… we got a fairly decent trade exception to use in the next year. That could prove useful. (Around $2.5 million)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Good point.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I'm not sold on Dalembert.
But you can’t have too much size, so I’d be on board if he was bought out, no question.
So I hope it does happen.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
i would
Love to see Dalembert in Green,long arms and long Young legs.
by nanaluvsball on Feb 25, 2011 3:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
They won't buy him out. He's valuable to them, besides he already said that he'd be mad if he would be away from Portland (via trade at the time)
They won’t let him go without value in return, and the trade deadline is over.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."
- Bill Russell
by Marjun Raposon on Feb 25, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Perk injured all year, comes back and we don't play that great with him, then he gets injured again
Green is better then Marquis.
Nenad this year is better then Perkins this year.
Delonte is better then Robinson.
Fellas.. this is an upgrade to our roster and actually increases our chances of 18
Yes, but you have forgotten about one important thing…
… TEAM CHEMISTRY. Gody and Semih didn’t do any damage to TEAM CHEMISTRY by leaving, but Perkins did.
TEAM CHEMISTRY this is the thing I’m worried most. How quickly new players will get the system? When will Ubuntu happen?
Team chemistry is overrated. Plus, we still got the Big Three and Rondo. These guys make millions per year and are professionals at what they will do…will have to get used to playing with Jeff and Nenad now.
by bigboyinboston on Feb 25, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Not according to Pierce...
“To me, [chemistry is] everything,” said Pierce. "It doesn’t matter what type of talent you bring in or what type of talent you have on your ballclub; people underrate what chemistry brings.
“This is one of the tightest units, one of the most together teams that you could probably think of, especially because we’ve been together for so many years, it’s just a number of things. How we roll on the plane, in the hotel, the camaraderie that we’ve been able to gather over the years. And, when you lose that, it’s tough. So, hopefully we can integrate the guys that we’ve got coming in and they can pick up things pretty quickly and make the adjustment [in] lifestyle to just how we are off the court.”
Or KG:
“We lost Semih, we lost Luke — ’Quis, obviously,” said Garnett before taking a long pause. "It’s a tough day. A tough day.
“You made these connections with these guys; you get to know one another. We’re not just one of these teams that just talk about hanging out. Man, our whole team hangs out. If you see one of us, it’s like 11, if not 12, 13 or 14 around the corner. Hell, [Celtics media relations czar Jeff] Twiss might even be right there with us.
“That’s how we are. We were taught that from the minute we got together. That’s the formula that works. That’s why we’ve been able to be successful with that formula. The chemistry on the court, it’s something like the chemistry off the court. Today was a really difficult day.”
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
It’s the first day of the trade. Let them mourn a longtime teammate, they will move on with the pieces we have and the ones we will be adding over the coming days. Taking Jeff Green under their wing will be crucial to this team’s chances in June.
by bigboyinboston on Feb 25, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Green...
is the player to look out for.
He is the long, strong, athletic small forward I have always wanted to see the C’s acquire ever since Posey left and should be a solid addition to the roster.
He will help the C’s short term this year backing up Pierce both on the offensive and defensive ends of the court and will also help the C’s long term as well since he is a young player with alot of upside.
He's 10X the player Posey was in '08.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
I'll agree to this if he can at least match what Posey did
for the Celtics and Miami.
Good article, Roy
I do think it’s quite pertinent what our starting players think and feel about this.
Those quotes, to me, end the debate on whether the trades disrupt chemistry.
What better evidence than from the players themselves. These guys are pros but this will affect them for awhile.
It will, no question.
But that doesn’t mean they wont be able to soldier through just fine, and build new chemistry with the new guys, and be just as good, or better come playoff time than they were.
Only time will tell, either way.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
If that disruption of chemistry causes them to fall to the #3 seed...
… was the trade worth it?
That’s not the strongest point against the trade, but it’s something that has to be factored in.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
they had 1 less loss than Miami prior to the trade
to pin it on the trade is bit extreme.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
What he said.
We’re not sure how it would have played out either way.
But as the nature of trades go, either side is going to blame it on this trade. Those of us in support, should the Celtics still get the 1 seed will say “see, I told you so” those in opposition, if they fall to 2 or 3 will say “see, I told you so.”
That’s just the way it is.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
nenad is playing better than perkins?
that makes no sense at all. In perkins time back he has 8 boards per game. Nenad has like 4.
Offensively, Nenad is better. Defensively, Kendrick is better.
by bigboyinboston on Feb 25, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
by 3 tenths of a point per game
and thats with perkins still getting his groove back.
and another thing
were not looking for nenads beastly 7.6 points per game. We need him to play defense.
We do need him to play defense, and hopefully KG will take him under his wing. However, I’ll always take a center with a good jumper – and who can hit FTs. He’s a good backup to have.
by bigboyinboston on Feb 25, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
a center who can bring the Howard's & Gasol's outside...
therefore allowing PP, Allen, West to drive inside ;)
Excellent point.
Krstic on the court, moving out to 15ft forces those guys to leave the paint. He will kill you if you give him open 15ft jumpers all day.
This creates great spacing and allows Rondo to operate. Now obviously you lose something on the other end with the defense and rebounding. But still, there’s always some give and take, Krstic definitely gives you options offensively, and can make Rondo’s life a lot easier by opening up that paint.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
5.6 actually.
But ya, rebounding clearly is Perks advantage there.
But Krstic has one of the best mid ranges game of any 7fter in the NBA. So, there’s some give and take with the Perk/Krstic comparison.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Going by career numbers.
Yes, this years per game are a bit lower, at 4.4
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/krstine01.html
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
right
i was comparing perks numbers this years. as somebody alleged nenad was playing better right now.
Ya, but he's also have some reasonable years in his career.
Averaging nearly 7 a game back in 06.
So, I think it’s tough at this point to simply declare him such a weak rebounder. He’s not great, there’s no doubt, but with what he can bring to the offensive side of the court, I’m willing to accept average.
KG is one of the best DRB players in the game, and although he struggled last year due to the injury, he seems back on pace this year, and is near the top of the league int hat category again. So, on a missed shot, there’s only one rebound to get, and I think this talk about rebounding is a bit over blown. They still have the size to get that job done, and Krstic brings alot to the offensive side of the floor (spacing, Ft shooting, ability to hit the turn around shot out of the post.) So it balances a lot of that stuff out.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
i dont know
if youre counting the two oneals as the size needed to get that done, thats a huge gamble.
Why are we comparing using rebound totals?
Could we at least normalize to per 36 minutes!
Otherwise those ‘rebound per game’ numbers are meaningless!
(Not picking on you, Sizzlack. You were just going with the thread).
A better measure is DRB%. By that, Krstic is pretty much average at rebounding for a center. No where near as good as Perk.
Much better offensively than Perk, though.
As has been pointed out – different players have different strengths.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
This is by far the best article I've read on this topic
I couldn’t agree more with everything you said. Sums up my feelings exactly.
I wish the push button poll had been broken down into at least two questions.
The Perkins/Green trade was one thing, and hard enough to weigh as it is. But sending Semih and Luke to Cleveland for who-knows-what was another deal, and one totally unfathomable at this point.
Eh...
That one doesn’t bother me, so long as we sign some competent vets. We saved money, picked up an asset, and opened up some roster spots. Sounds okay.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
We could've won last night if Erden had been around. And I don't see how his presence could hurt us.
Davis and Krstic alone probably aren’t enough to get us smoothly through the rest of the regular season (not if home court in the playoffs is significant to us). So until Ainge tells us he has somebody better than Erden coming in at that position, I’ll be mystified.
Krstic is a much better player than Erden.
So the assumption of course is Shaq will be healthy, and taking over Perkins role with the starters. Davis was finishing games at Center all year anyway, so that doesn’t change anything. Krstic is a clear upgrade over Erden, and if all the rest remains true, it’s an upgrade overall in this trade.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
up much as i hate to admit it cuz i like erden
krstic is furthur along than erden and has a jumper and some post moves.
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Feb 25, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
His toughness will be tested in practice too.
Shaq and KG are going to go at him with full force in every practice.
He’s not known as a tough player, if anyone can toughen him up, they can. It should be interesting to see if he can develop at all.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
much to my chagrin I underestimated Erden
Had he been healthy he would have been very good…..so I hope I underestimate Kristic ….but I am never wrong two times in a row like that
Is it Soup Yet?
First time for everything?
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Simmons does it again.
Amazing analysis of the Perkins trade, which really hit home with me.
I literally almost cried.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/110225/part2&sportCat=nba
He gets it perfectly right, and I feel the exact same way. I talk myself into this trade, because I’m a fan, and it absolutely makes perfect Basketball sense to me; but I do all this while my heart breaks for Perk and I want to cry about the thought of him in another uniform.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Yeah
I think the trade is ultimately an improvement, but it breaks my heart to think about what Perk must be going through. So loyal, so determined. It’s going to kill me to see him in another uniform.
I'm going to cry.
And I’m not even ashamed to admit it.
All I can say is when he returns to the garden, that place better be so freaking loud that the backboards shatter. Perk deserves the biggest and loudest standing ovation we have seen in 50 years.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
One of Bill Simmons best write-ups.
I agree with everything he says about the Perkins trade, especially the emotional impact.
I disagree about the C- grade. But I understand where he’s coming from.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Maybe Leon is at Lourdes with Shaq and JO
How many more guys with a history of injuries and who can’t stay on the court can this team afford to sign?
JO makes Powe seem like someone who has good knees
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Let's hope for the door to be closed for Powe
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Site also states that the Knicks are looking for a pick for Brewer.
Do you think that is why we received the pick from SAC? To get him?
Trading deadline is passed...
So teams can’t give the Knicks a pick for him.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Just do us a favor and right a part 2
to this article after they play with each other so we can revisit the 66% including yourself who are against the trade of Perkins…
Thanks.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Do you only want him to write another article if the trade is a success?
Or if it turns out to be a failure, should he also write another article?
Sure let's revisit it even if it's a failure
What is failure to you Vinnie?
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Failure to me is not getting to the finals
I was convinced that if Perk was healthy they would get to the finals
Well it's hard to judge.
We don’t know what would have happened with the team were it to stay the same. Who says they’d of made the finals. So if they don’t know, I’m not sure it’s such a knock on the trade, although it’s likely to be taken that way.
Really tough thing to judge really. But I will continue to believe it was the right Basketball move for the team. On paper, it makes all the sense in the world, and I support Danny’s decision.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Ok but, it was going to be tough to get by
either Miami or Chicago with Perkins but, I would probably consider that a failure as well. Let’s hope you are wrong and I am right.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Yes, I do.
If it’s wrong, I’ll write one too.
And I’ll still say, I agree with what Danny did. It’s a risk worth taking.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Sounds good...
As I’ve said numerous times, I’ll be very happy to be wrong.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I'm amazed at all the love Perk gets?
I will miss his presence and rebounds.
I won’t miss his scowling, turnovers (3-4) a game, his stone hands and having to spend time on the bench in foul trouble.
I love that all the exerts hate this trade, they are the same ones who said we would lose every single series last year. They will be wrong again. Green will shine, he will bring a little bit of what Posey brought. Not so much the attitude but the ability.
What was one of the biggest troubling factors during last years run. Pierce needing a breather. Well now we have someone to spell him.
This was a good trade.
No problem that the experts hate this trade...
… unfortunately, the players do, too, which is a bigger concern.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
They played fine for the first 40 games Sans Perk.
They only hate it because he was their boy.
by Steal by Bird on Feb 25, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
So they are sad they lost a good friend in a trade
and didn’t throw parade for it and that means they hate it?
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
As of the moment, yeah, it seems like they pretty much hate it...
What word would you use?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Well I mean realizing the situation I would suspect
I would abstain from their opinions. I mean what were they going to be happy?
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Of course they do.
But that can all change very quickly once they start winning again, and see what these new guys bring.
But you can’t expect them to like losing a friend like that.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
If we win the title
one of my first immediate reactions will be to think of Perk. I am sure many of you will do the same, and I am sure the players will say it as well. It will be bittersweet because he busted his tail for this team and loved the team. He wanted nothing more that to meet the Lakers again in the Finals. Just will not be the same.
I agree with this.
Bittersweet is the perfect word for it.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
+1 JPV...you are keeping me from typing as you are reading my mind on each post
and Roy
Is it Soup Yet?
I would bet good money
that if the C’s win the title, that the organization offers a ring to Perk.
jeezus, if Pollard got one for 2008 …
Unless, of course, it is OKC as the opponent in the finals …. (which is not at all an impossibility).
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
another fine DA pick up ...POllard
Lafrentz, Mikki Moore, Kandi Man, the list goes on and on …..
Is it Soup Yet?
Players should just shutup and play
these guys are totally ungrateful. Who put this thing together? Without Ainge/Doc and ownership none of the big three would have a snowman’s chance of winning a title. So if management got it right withthem, why not with this new additions?
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Woah.
Take a step back there my friend. They aren’t robot, they’re human. That’s just crazy talk.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Players
are allowed to have feelings too. I’d be more worried if they didn’t.
Not saying they shouldn't emote
I’m saying they are being unreasonable. The same manager put their winning team together, so at least show him some loyalty that if he know what he was doing then, he knows what he’s doing now.
"You're about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest." Rowan Atkinson
by The Village Idiot on Feb 25, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Who's being unreasonable?
What has been done that is unreasonable?
You are tossing out charges here. Can you be specific?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
i cant say yes or no yet
i have to wait until the last 2-3 players are added.
at the moment im 50-50 on it. i like that we got rid of the erratic nate even though he was fun to watch at times. i like the addition of green. i like that krstic has decent jumper and some offense, that he’s and 80% FT shooter. i like the 1st rounder…
i dont like losing perks defense and toughness inside, or losing erden for a second rounder, or that it messes with team chemistry and leaves us relying on shaq and jo’s health.
we need to add at least 2 decent players through buyouts i think for this to be a win. a wing playe and a capable big, IMO. just dont know who will be bought out yet.
i will say that i am excited to see what a bench with green, davis and healthy delonte can do
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Feb 25, 2011 1:06 PM EST reply actions
"rather than an overhaul"
I don’t know how this was an overhaul for someone who only played 12 games this year? He’s also injured again. Shaq will fill the void when we need him too. The future looks a lot brighter.
It's an overhaul from the "starting lineup that has never lost a playoff series"
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
How do you know this?
How do you know Shaq can fill anything. He has an overweight player who has put a ton of minutes on those legs. I doubt he can play extended minutes in the playoffs or any other time at thhis point. He gave the C’s a good 25 games and then started breaking down. He wasn’t that great his last few games before this latest injury. That is part of the reason I don’t understand this deal. Banking on Shaq and JO? No thanks…the more bodies that can play defense at Center the better. Not to mention the fact that his teammates clearly liked playing with him.
Maybe he's using critical thinking
and assuming DA must think that?
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Ah, they lost last year. I wish people would stop saying that.
He didn’t play in Game 7. One game. Your tune will change in June when we hoist Banner 18. Danny will be GM of the year again.
By then everyone will be on board and this will be long forgotten.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
And if they lose in the 2nd round? My guess is that the supporters of this trade will still defend it no matter what happens.
Well you can be happy if that happens then
because you would be correct.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
nope
I will end up as miserable as yesterday when I heard the trade was made. I was a lot less disappointed by the valiant effort the team made in the finals last year when they lost to the Lakers in 7 games. Too bad DA doesn’t believe in that team anymore.
Or he has other reasons
like Perk not taking what they were giving and not having another wing.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
A huge gamble
The hardest part for many Celtic fans is seeing a team broken up that was brought back specifically to win another NBA title but now isn’t being given the chance.
Doc loved to use the mantra of how “this starting 5 has never lost a playoff series” which is now pointless. Doc made it clear the main reason he came back was to give it another shot with the same starting 5 that he led to the NBA title in 2008.
With many teams chemistry is overrated but not with the Celtics. This veteran group truly embraces the team concept more than any other team. To see them be broken up without giving them the chance to win another title is disappointing.
Danny is no doubt trying to build for the future which may turn out to be the right move eventually. Unfortunately for this group it makes no sense. Doc, the players and most fans were ready to accept that this team was in “win now” mode even if it meant sacrificing part of the future. Banner 18 is a worthy reward for struggles that may come afterward.
The team will adjust as they have no choice. If everything goes right Doc and the veterans will pull in the new players and quickly form a cohesive unit. The one possible improvement with these trades is that the 4th quarter offense may improve. The C’s biggest weakness has been a lack of scoring punch late in games especially down the stretch. Hopefully the new additions will make the team more potent at the end of games and give them more options when the offense becomes stagnant.
It’s alot to ask for this team to add so many new pieces and gel with so few games left before the playoffs. However there is no choice given the current state of the roster. Danny has made a huge gamble with his veteran players, coach and his own legacy as a GM, we can only hope it somehow pays off in the end.
It's always nice to be on Peter May's side
that tends to happen if you take the opposite side of most of the C’s fans.
Get it..?
Me and Peter May on contrarians. I’ll be here all week folks… < crickets >
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
There's too many comments for me to read if someone already said this but....
I think Danny is trying to kill two birds with one stone. OKC definitely looks posed to kill LA up front with a much younger front. The C’s still have bigs in repair and will probably be ready come playoff time, but the kicker with Jeff Green is that you get an atheletic dynamic against the Heat, Magic, Bulls, and Hawks. So, its a strange gut check the your GM just pulled but it might work out. If I’m wrong….Danny is probably….no surely gone
Atlanta will win a championship....someday
The passion of Celtics' fans is awesome
The number of posts here about the trade compared to the OKC main blog is about 10 times or more. We love talking about our team in a passionate way!
If you lived in Oklahoma the main thing on your
mind would be How Do I Get Out of Here?
Query
Everyone keeps saying it, but would someone please show me with numbers or something tangible that Perkins makes the Celtics’ defense better?
It's fair question when you look at their record
with him and without him this season.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Not all things that can be measured actually count, and not all things that really matter can be counted
Is it Soup Yet?
Cannot put a price on heart. Perk played with so much heart. It was a beautiful thing to watch.
He was a throwback to another era. Like KG and Rondo, he does not want to be buddies with the other team. He wants your lunch and your dog. When you look around at the NBA, not many players have that. And before Perk left, we had at least three guys (Perk, Rondo, KG) who were junkyard dogs. I can accept Perk’s flaws on offense because his heart trumped them every time. Can’t replace that.
Agree with both of you
Really going to miss that guy. I’m tearing up just thinking of it.
Not a lot of data for this year.
Can’t say much of anything about his impact in 2010-2011.
Its a complex thing, but if you go back to 2009-2010 (or prior years) you can examine 5-man unit stats at 82games.com:
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910BOS2.HTM
Now, pay attention to the number of minutes played by each unit – some units look great but if they only played a few minutes that doesn’t mean much. On that chart, though if you look at the top row (which is the basic Celtic starting 5 of Perk + Big 4) you see they had a Defensive Efficiency Rating of 1.00 pts per possession (which is freakin’ awesome, btw).
Now, just for background, for all the complaints about Rasheed Wallace’ game last year – almost ALL of his problems were on offense and caused by our need to misuse him on the perimeter as a stretch big which had him chucking up those stupid 3PT shots. Despite that, ALL of Rasheed’s personal defensive stats last year ended up at or better than his career averages. And his career rep was as a very good defensive player. Among all players who put in 1500+ minutes, Rasheed ended up with the 4th best personal Defensive Efficiency Rating. In the entire NBA. So despite the hate some on this blog had for him, the truth is, on defense, Rasheed was still very, very good last year.
That said, in line 3 of the table, where we substitute Wallace for Perkins with the starters, the Defensive Efficiency dropped all the way to 1.09 pts per possession. That’s still very, very good. Just not ‘freaking awesome’.
Granted also, the latter unit only had 182 minutes together so the error bars on that are large. Still, its a data point.
So, the net of this is that, yeah, Perk probably had a very positive impact on the defense with this team.
Whether he would have had a similar impact this year compared to say, Shaq or JO? Hard to say. Both those guys are pretty good post defenders as well, with different strengths and weaknesses. With Shaq+Big 4, we posted an identical 1.00 pts per possession DRtg earlier this season – though in only 208 minutes. The Shaq+Big 4 had a better offensive efficiency rating, though – 1.16 ppp (compared to 1.13 for Perk+Big 4 in 2009-2010).
I don’t know if these numbers help you out or not. Hopefully you find them interesting.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Thank God. Weei has all baseball guys on this afternoon
I hate this station
I feel like someone just broke up with me.
I don’t really care if it’s better this way, that it’s for my own good, that things are going to get better.
It still hurts, and I miss Perk already.
This sums it up: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/110225/part2&sportCat=nba
It pretty much encapsulates my feelings
except for the non factual portion about Rondo in crunch time which he continues to perpetuate due to lack of BB knowledge. But other than that a nice write up. Perk will be missed.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Ya, posted the same about that article earlier in the thread.
Can’t agree more.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
The saddest thing is,
winning banner 18 wouldn’t be the same without Perk. I know it. The team will jump and rejoice and look for team mates to hug, but it’s just not going to be the same without Perk.
Oh and that part made little sense as well
and really wish he left his dad’s feelings out of his articles. If they win it I’ll be just as happy as I was in 2008.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
I actually enjoy the references to his dad
I can relate since my Dad and I watched the Celtics from the days of Havlicek (and he was a fan before I was born). I have many fond memories of watching games and championships with him. I am sure many of us do.
Agreed the first 1000 articles
he referenced him. Now I’m past his pops opinions.
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
I’ll take Banner 18 with or without Kendrick Perkins. The nostalgia is going a bit too far. We kept our five most valuable players, and Ric Bucher says Troy Murphy is headed to Boston who is going to spread the floor, rebound, and be a great addition.
by bigboyinboston on Feb 25, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Gawd have mercy on your soul, vinnie.
I fear for you, dude. Take care.
Do NOT go the path of the D.B.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Danny has the stones of mountains
and he ain’t done yet
by thereallargejames on Feb 25, 2011 2:54 PM EST reply actions
That's one thing no one can
argue. Some might say those stones are in his head though. lol
"Do you know that nonbelievers create the most positive energy?" Davis said
Banner 18
Glad we got rid of the Clodhopper Perkins and the midget man wasn’t getting enough PT, Green should help tremendous plus Krstic well just as good if not better …….
Troy Murphy well be here soon and maybe Dalembert …….
Idiots???
Youmust be new here. We do not address ourselves this way. And we are Celtics fans whether we agree or not. Use of the word also takes away from the merits of your post.
I’ve been a Celtics Fan since the late 70’s so due to that fact I don’t get to emotional over roster moves like I did when I was younger because I have seen so many of them both good and bad(mostly good under Ainge btw). This is my take on the reaction of some fans.
It is okay for fans to only think about this season. It is okay for fans to get emotionally attached to players who have been a big part of a winning past as Perkins has been.
It ISN’T okay for a GM of a professional sports team to act like a fan and only think about this season with no eye on the future prospects of a franchise. It ISN’T okay for a GM to get emotionally attached to pl;ayers no matter whom they are or what they have done in the past.
Perkins injury history and rumored contract demands made this deal almost a necessity for Danny Ainge. He couldn’t tie himself to an above average low post defender, who also happened to be a liability on the offensive end and couldn’t be counted on to p[lay out or play up to the contract he was rumored to be demanding. It would have been completely irresponsible on Ainge’s part to allow Perkins to go into this off season knowing the Celtic’s had no intention of signing him to a deal that he probably couldn’t play up to.
I understand the emotional attachment to Perkins because I too am a fan. Danny Ainge though isn’t a fan and shouldn’t carry himself as one because his responsibility is to the Celtics and to do what is best for the Celtics’ not only this season but ALSO LONG TERM. The Celtics got the best player in this deal going forward IMO and I have little doubt about that so due to this I believe Danny AInge did the hard thing….and absolutely the right thing. Danny AInge couldn’t allow him to leave with no return to the Celtics as he almost certainly would have don’t to the highest bidder this coming off season. Not with his injury history. Not with his limitations on one end of the floor. Not when he was demanding more then he is worth.
fan since 1968...good post and I respect your words
But I am more like Bill Simmons father in the article he just wrote.
By the way that article was absolutely terrific ….best I have read in awhile
Is it Soup Yet?
The fundamental problem with all the flagellation that’s going on here is the expectation that Ainge should operate the Celtics as a fan. He’s not paid to love players, and the expectation that he should is foolish and a recipe for another 20 year dry spell. The above post is absolutely spot on.
There’s another fallacious assumption in this discussion: That we’re discussing a healthy Perkins. We clearly are not.
Totally support the trade, believe it’s clear that we got outstanding value for Perkins.
Good Post
I know Perk is a defensive monster, but all this hubbub about Danny seems over the top. KP has averaged about 6 and 6 over his career, has a nagging shoulder injury and knee issues. I hope he goes gangbusters for Durant in OKC, but have no regrets about the merits of this deal. The press coverage makes Perk out to be Bob Lanier and Willis Reed combined, and Green is apparently a reject from the Washington Generals.
by Gabby Hartnett Where are You? on Feb 25, 2011 5:17 PM EST reply actions
Why do people keep pointing out Perk's career averages?
It’s disingenuous to me. The first couple seasons of Perk’s career, he was developing and wasn’t seeing minutes. More recently, he’s been an 8/8 or 10/8 guy.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Not to mention those particular numbers (pts and rebounds per game) are such lousy measures
of Perkins’ worth. There much better stats to use. In particular his defensive efficiency, his defensive rebound percentage and the opponent’s FG% for shots on rim when he’s on the floor. THOSE are the kind of stats that measure why you have a player like Perkins on your team.
I’m on record as being totally FOR this trade. But people who keep trying to make it about Perkins’ supposed liabilities as a player are barking up the wrong tree.
This was about ADDING more elsewhere in the roster while not dropping too much quality at the center position. We traded an asset of one type and of great value for another asset of a different type of great value because we (Danny) perceived that the latter type of asset was more critical to the team right now and for the future.
Why do some fans always feel they have to rationalize the trading away of a player by ripping them down?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Yeah...
I respect those who are big fans of the trade. I just don’t understand where the Perk-bashing is coming from. It’s like all those who couldn’t appreciate a defensive role player are now coming out of the woodwork, like this somehow justifies their scorn.
Perk is a dang good player. If he wasn’t, OKC wouldn’t have given up Green, Krstic, and a #1 for him (while taking on Nate’s salary).
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I haven't seen 'bashing', per se
I’ve seen valid arguments such as…Perk hasn’t played most of the season, Perk’s injury may be more serious than we know, Perk is not the 2nd coming, etc. and that, to me, isn’t bashing. I think 99 percent of fans here love Perk and are sad to see him go. Yet one can love him and still like the trade.
I just haven’t seen any bashing.
Trust me, ther is bashing
Like the poster who called Perk the equivalent of Greg Kite
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
by Roy_Hobbs on Feb 26, 2011 7:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Trust me, ther is bashing
Like the poster who called Perk the equivalent of Greg Kite
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
by Roy_Hobbs on Feb 26, 2011 7:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
From my perspective, that’s an unfair comment. Perkins is being eulogized on this board and anyone who dares disagree is “ripping them down?” Seems to me this comment is outside the bounds of the rules of respect on this board.
He didn't say anything about "anyone who dares disagree", though...
Rather, the comment was “Why do some fans always feel they have to rationalize the trading away of a player by ripping them down?” I think the comment was only directed at that subset of fans who actually engages in that behavior, rather than all fans (like mmmmm himself) who support the trade.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I think that, from a rules perspective, you want to be careful categorizing anyone who doesn’t view Perkins as the second coming of Bill Russell as “tearing them down,” Roy, and there’s plenty of that going on this board right now.
I respect your opinion, Roy. I totally disagree with it in this instance, and I’ve stated my reasons why in several threads. I’m not going to stoop to accusing anyone here of exaggerating Perkins’ skillset. Those of us who disagree deserve the same courtesy.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion
I do think you’re wrong about Perk’s value, though. If he’s as limited as you say, why did OKC trade us Green, Krstic, and a pick for him? Is OKC as wrong as you think many on the board are?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Absolutely agree CoachBo
Everyone here has the right to their opinion without getting bashed for it or sarcastic and condescending comments.
I have had to learn myself to be more tolerate rather than the knee-jerk reactions letting fly from my keyboard. It’s such an emotional blog because we all love the Celtics and have our own particular players we like.
My fav player is BBD and I remember his first two years
Here he was ‘bashed’, meaning ‘fans’ calling him horrible names and not even giving him a chance at all. When those of us who knew he was going to turn out great for this team objected to the bashing, we were bashed and ridiculed., which, in turn, caused defensive reactions from us. Another thing I remember is when I would say that BBD is being ‘bashed’ or ‘hated on’, I would be bashed for bringing it up and told I was ‘overreacting’.
So it goes both ways. Everyone needs to remember the rules of cb. This is a good, high class blog that promotes respectful and dignified behavior regardless of who you are or what you think.
It’s hard sometimes because we truly are passionate and real fans.
Good piece, don't like the trade...
…but I understand Ainge’s thinking and Perk’s If he wanted more than the 22 or even 39 mil dollar amounts. If Brandon Haywood can get 52 mil, isn’t Perk worth that? Or close to it? Noah’s 60 mil was too much, but big men ALWAYS get overpaid. Remember Mark Blount? Perk is 26 and next contract could be his last big one.’he should go for the $$$.
The biggest issue I see in all this immediately is the idea that the C’s can somehow get 48 minutes out of Shaq and JO down the stretch. Seems unlikely, but I assume the medical staff knows more than me.
Beyond that, who mans the 5 next season? If Ainge can’t afford to pay his own guy a lowball offer, who can he hope to get? (Assuming JO and Shaq retire, which seems likely given their health).
by LuckyNumber07 on Feb 25, 2011 5:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I don’t blame Perkins for wanting to cash in, not one bit. He has earned a big pay day via his work ethic and past success. He also will get his pay day due to those things but also due to the absence of high level players at his position in todays NBA and the fact that someone is going to give him his asking price. I’m just glad Danny Ainge and the Boston Celtics wont be the ones on the hook for it due to the fact that he in all honesty cannot be counted on to be there when you need him most due to his knee and shoulder issues.
I admire Kendrick Perkins. I’m sad to see him go. I was in complete shock yesterday when this all went down. I also feel pretty confident that this was what is best for the Boston Celtics now and in the future.
Short and Long Gains
The club is weaker at the post (defensively) but shored up the 3. If (said if) Green can play some D on Odom and Bron as well as knock down some shoots, then that balances things out a bit. With the ball, the club has more options, and, with Rondo at the point, you want 4 guys who can get the ball in the hole. Perk’s a bit of a liability on the count, which was pretty obv. once he began starting.
As for playoff match-ups. Aside from Howard and Bynam, there arent that many behemouth Ctrs to worry about, and of the 2, only LA really. So yes a gamble but to say “hast la vista 18” seems premature.
We all watched Perk grow up from a pup and give his all, which makes it hard to let go.
"Celtics bring order and structure to a chaotic world"
The things that bothers me more than the trade is the way it was done.
Apparently Perk was surprised, as was the whole team and were not given a heads-up till the day of departure. Maybe there was some technical reason for that, but it certainly was a cold slap in the face. Hearing from Nate that Perk had been crying and Nate was trying to make him feel better just broke my heart.
Trades happen and this one doesn’t bother me a great deal. It is only that I will miss having Perk around and his part in the big 5. I’ve always loved Perk and I think most people have.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on CelticsBlog
Related FanShots on CelticsBlog
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Behind the Box Score, where the Boston Celtics are moving on to the conference finals
- NBA Playoffs Fan Fiction: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- The Indiana Pacers? Gone till November
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
