Can We Win Without Shaq?
by Jeff Clark on Apr 19, 2011 6:02 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintThe Celtics enter game 2 without Shaquille O'Neal in the paint. This is no surprise by now. In fact, this has become the norm rather than the exception. If you ask Doc or anyone from the team, he's "getting better" and "could play soon." He's been a couple of weeks away for countless weeks. Of course the question of when he will start playing is just one part of the equation. The follow on question of how long he'll be able to play is impossible to answer.
So the logical next question happens to be the title of this post. Can we win without Shaq? For one game, the answer was yes (if barely). For one series against the Knicks, I'm guessing the answer is still going to be yes. What about after that? Are we banking on Shaq to finally return in round 2? Do we need him healthy and spry to raise Banner 18?
The team does seem to have played its best basketball with Shaq on the court. They compiled a 27-9 record with him during the regular season (and if you need more stats to back that up, just ask Danny to defend The Trade). The guy hasn't forgotten what made him "the most dominant big man ever." He has kept himself in phenomenal shape the last few years so he could keep banging with the young guns. When he's on the court, he's effective but he just can't stay on the court.
So in the time that he's missed the Celtics have been up and down. At the beginning of the year, it almost didn't matter. They could throw Semih Erden out there and beat the best teams in the league. The middle of the year the struggled regardless of who was in the middle. (For those curious, they went 8-4 with Kendrick Perkins). Nenad Krstic played well right after the trade but has since regressed. Glen Davis was amazing during the first half of the year and was able to fill in admirably at times but has since fallen in love with his jumper a little too much for my taste and doesn't seem to be a great fit at the center position anyway.
So we turn our lonely eyes to Jermaine O'Neal, who has looked positively rejuvenated after his surgery. He will never again be the 20/10 guy that he was in Indiana, but we sometimes forget that he gave the Heat over 13 points and 7 rebounds a game last year on a broken down wheel. And forget the stats for a minute and think about the defensive impact he made on game 1. Even if he just mans the paint and allows our defense to function, he'll be putting us in the position to win games. After all, that's what Perkins used to do and that usually worked out well.
Of course it remains to be seen how long Jermaine himself can stay on the court. He looks good now and has supposedly fixed the issue he's been dealing with, but sometimes these things have a tendency to have setbacks.
If Rondo is playing well, if Ray is taking enough shots, if Paul is locked in, if KG is snarling, then the Celtics can beat anyone, regardless of who's manning the post. Having Shaq certainly makes them a better team, and in the playoffs you need every advantage you can get. But I've said this all along, the Celtics will go as far as the Big 4 will get them. Will that be enough? We'll see.
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yea
I think we can pending Jermaine gives us 30 every night of what he gave us in game 1 and a few of those regular season games.
I know that’s a big pending…
i voted no, and then read your post -
jermaine said he’s not felt this good in years,
and he ‘used’ to be totally awesome -
so yes, if jermaine can give them everything –
they can hang banner 18
and if shaq can come back and assist in any way,
it’ll only help -
.
Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk
Im not so sure bout JO
Of course he’ll feel good in the first game. But its tbd if he’ll withstand a physical series. He did look decent though in game 1. But that may be to the effect of nobody expecting him to have any input on the offensive end.
"they try to do what he do, and been where he's been, but they get folded in two.....he's the dude"
we lost last year because of rebounding, so as long as the center rebounds, we’ll be find, i hope.
The day you take complete responsibility for yourself, the day you stop making any excuses, thats the day you start to the top.
-O.J. Simpson
It's not about the rebounds
it’s about the guys grabbing the rebounds.
Believe
by Green Oracle on Apr 19, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Game 1
JO and his effort carried the C’s at a point in game 1 when they were in serious danger of things getting out of hand. That’s more than we usually expect from our center position. I don’t want to put too much pressure on him to carry the team, but he ably stepped up on Sunday when no one else had gotten out of second gear. He’s not just adequate, he’s good! Better yet, he played with grit and determination.
So long as the big 4 find their groove, JO is more than capable of manning the center position. My worry would be Howard (or more likely) the Lakers bigs. At the very very least, I’d like another 6 fouls to give and I think we all believe Shaq can give the team more than that if he can get back on the floor.
by Thruthelookingglass on Apr 19, 2011 6:48 AM EDT reply actions
Sure, they can win it all without a healthy Shaq...
provided the planes carrying the Bulls, Heat, and half of the WC all crash!
I think
You guys already have a lot more size than the heat, but against the bulls shaq would be crucial
With a spoon, i scooped out some of the juices inside my pimple, and it tasted like chunky vomit.
M.O.B.
You don't think that (a currently healthy) Jermaine O'Neal matches up well against Noah?
JO + KG vs Noah + Boozer? Which do you like better?
Will Rose drive the hoop if one of the NBA’s best shot blocker’s is waiting there, instead of Nenad Krstic?
I don’t claim to know the exact answers to these questions either, but I’m not sure I’d say that Shaq is ‘crucial’ to beat the Bulls. Obviously, he would make it a lot easier.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
This question is imcomplete
“Can we win without Shaq, if everything stays the way it is?” Answer: I don’t think so.
“Can we win without Shaq, if all of a sudden we get help at the center position?” Answer: you bet.
Did you see JO out there?
If we can get production out of him like that (and I just mean defensively, I obviously don’t expect him to go 6/6 every game… although they were all like 5ft shots) then if Shaq comes back it only makes them that much better. They’d be good enough without him, and just that much better with him.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Yes we can
The arrival of JO in Game 1 showed us that there is now an alternative to Shaq. It’s reasonable to expect JO to continue to improve his stamina and conditioning — per Doc’s plan in babying him along by carefully managing his comeback minutes — steadily, so that by the 2nd round, he should be ready to contribute as a full-time center. Meaning 30 minutes per game, more if needed… and more than we could ever expect from Shaq. (Plus JO has a jumper and takes charges… an improvement over BOTH of our recent true centers, including the dearly departed.)
(Of course, interpreted literally, the poll question has no answer but “Of course we CAN.” But since that would be a trivial question, I’m assuming the question is: “Is it reasonable for us to expect to win.”)
Getting Shaq back would still (obviously ) help because it would, along with the healthy JO we just saw, solve the 5 spot completely. But it’s not absolutely necessary anymore.
As for the rest of the team….. Game 1 seems to have been their wake-up call. They appear now to be determined to get this job done. The talent is there. The one major hole is being filled. This early round will be challenging, which should continue to hone their skills and ferocity (just like 08) . And so now the stage is set for them to go all the way.
Possible? Certainly. I’d say more likely than not, at this point.
I don't understand why a healthy JO doesn't get more respect.
He’s the first healthy, repeat-All-Star center we’ve had for, what, 25 years?
Here’s an example of how he’s discounted by the pundits:
Oh, and he's not going to score 20/night on this team--
but if he’s the starting center next year, I can see him as a 14/10/2-3 guy scoring with great efficiency.
Yep, which was just about right at what his numbers were last year in Miami.
Because he was… you guessed it, healthy!
The guys got knees of glass, but hopefully the operation holds, he seems to be indicating that he feels better right now than he has in years and wishes he had gotten the surgery a long time ago.
But JO is a great player, don’t forget at the start of the year most of us were predicting him to be the starter, as it was generally agreed upon that he was at this point a better player than Shaq.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
I was really impressed with the mobility he has shown so far.
The dunk he did in his last regular season game was done with power, authority and pure confidence. No hesitation whatsoever.
And he did not look winded down the stretch.
He currently looks as if his recovery is for real. Let’s cross our fingers and hope for no new injuries – to JO or anybody on the Celtics!!!!
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
+1
Yes I think we expected JO to perform much better than Shaq at the start — then Shaq was Shaq and JO just faded into the background. After game 1, I was thoroughly impressed with JO. He was exactly what we needed (and exactly what we’ve been missing since the Perk trade).
I believe in JO, and sincerely hope he stays healthy. If he does, we don’t need Shaq.
OF COURSE a healthy shaq would be a HUGE bonus. JO would have more minutes to rest, as all old bodies need to. It would be great if they could split the minutes up between the both of them.
Really disappointed in Krstic.
Bleacher report.......
Shouldn’t be trusted. Half the time, they don’t know what they’re talking about, and a lot of their info is simply wrong.
~Aaron
by bostonceltics on Apr 19, 2011 8:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No, I don't think we will win w/o Shaq
Our big advantage over Miami, and our ability to matchup with the best of the West, is at the Center position with Shaq.
If you look at: http://www.82games.com/1011/1011BOS.HTM
you will see that our team is dramatically better with Shaq. Yes, Jermaine will be a very nice addition at center, but that still leaves WAY TOO MANY minutes for Davis at center. Davis needs to be playing PF where he can optimize his skillsets. The dropoff in Center from Shaq to Davis is ENORMOUS. Therefore we’d lose one of our main advantages (both offensively and defensively).
Still, I think its going to take more than Shaq. This team still needs to push the ball a bit better, turnover less, get into the shot clock sooner, and play high-quality defense more consistently. I believe in this team, and think they have as good as chance as any in the NBA… but only if Shaq can play.
Win Without Shaq?
I’m more concerned with our offense. We work harder in our offensive sets than most teams. We struggled mightily in the first half against New York, who we were told can’t play defense. Not until Rondo started pushing the tempo did our offense become more effective. Let’s start pushing it from the get go tonight instead of waiting until we’re twelve points down again.
I find this whole thing highly ironic...
I mean at the start of the year it was about a 50/50 split if Shaq could even help the Celtics, if he was even worth a roster spot.
And now suddenly he’s the only way they can win a Championship?… Come on people!
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Different team
At the start of year we didn’t know Perk was going to be traded.
so hypnosis is the key!
lets put them under and tell them perkins is just home sick :)
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Apr 19, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes... but the arguments were...
“Shaq is washed up”, “Shaq isn’t that good anymore, Cleveland was much better when he wasn’t on the floor last year”, “Shaq is fat and hold, he can’t play anymore.”
None of this had anything to do with Perk.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
I agree
especially in this first round, the Knicks don’t have a true center…I heard KG was second in the voting for Def. Player of the Year. Shaq was first in getting Recliner of the Year!
Prove we are wrong, Tom "Medicine Man" Quinn, NOT!
by Great Gatsby on Apr 19, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Ask me this 3 days ago
And I’d say “Of course we need Shaq, there’s no way we can do it without him”….. But then I saw Jermaine in game one. Taking charges, clogging up the middle, blocking melo and stoudemire, getting boards (offensive and defensive) and even making jumpshots. He made me believe. As long as Jermaine continues playing like that (and of course, the big 4 has to produce), we might as well start calling ourselves champions already.
~Aaron
by bostonceltics on Apr 19, 2011 8:48 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Whoa, easy with that talk.
One game at a time.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
not impossible
but it’ll be a hell of a lot harder to accomplish
He would help, no question.
So I can’t disagree with that.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
very true.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Too close to call
Shaq’s presence alone does have some effect on the game. He is not about to put up 20 10 nights at all. However Shaq controls the paint well. JO may have just had the best game he will ever have in celtic unifiorm. Nonetheless I hope to see him given the majority of the center minutes while Shaq is out. The main problem I see is JO running out of gas while shaq is on hiatus. The main problem being that soft a** Kristic would get into the game and stand on the elbow not causing any havoc in the paint.
This team can't beat Chi, Mia, or LAL...
…without establishing an interior game…period.
Whether it be Shaq, JO, KG, Krstic, or Green – the team has to establish and inside/outside game in order to free up their shooters. When Shaq was playing this was automatic because Shaq’s reputation and sheer size forced defenses to account for him – he still draws doubles of half-hedges when on the block.
The team’s offense was one of the best in over a DECADE efficiency wise before he went down because of this.
Well said.
This is a great point. The presence of a player like him forces teams to take notice, even at his age, there’s maybe 1 or 2 players in the league who can guard him 1 on 1 in the post. Obviously he is ideal for the team as his presence frees up shooters when defenses go to help on Shaq.
However, I do think they have the post players that can force the issue, especially against the weaker interior teams. It’s just a matter of a decision of the offense to get those guys touches in good position.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
+1
And not just Shaq. Our offence is horrible right now. Not a single team can’t win playing like that. Let’s fix the offence we still have a shot…
I don't think we can, no...
The team simply hasn’t looked championship caliber with JO or Krstic starting. Even in Game 1, we fell down by 11 to the Knicks. Against Miami, Chicago, or LA, that’s a loss.
We need the Big Fella. Even with a healthy JO, he’s only going to play between 25 – 30 minutes per game, in all likelihood. Having another center in there so that we have a threat at the position all game would do wonders.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Yes because those teams looked like world beaters in their first game too...
I agree, we do need him, and it will be extremely difficult with out him. There is no question in my mind that a healthy Shaq, capable of 20 minutes a game would make this team nearly unbeatable.
But can it be done without him? Yes.
Not saying it will, just that it can, they are good enough, but it would not be easy.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Okay, nothing is ever necessarily "impossible"...
Heck, it’s not impossible for the Pacers to win the title, but it’s very, very unlikely.
What’s the probability of winning the title without at least some contribution from Shaq? I’m saying less than 10%.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
how do we measure that 10% to know if you were right or wrong?
They have to win 16 games in order to win the title.
They’ve won 1/16 = 6.25% of the way so far!
If they win tonight, they’ll be over 13% of the way there!
:-D
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Ha...
I wish they did it like that. Then, last year we would have won 93.75% of a championship. That’s almost the entire trophy.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I guess that shows that you only get a geometric share.
The first round wins of the 16 are each only worth a fraction of what the last win is worth.
The math should work out such that winning 15 games leaves you with less than 100% of the trophy and 16 gets you over it. Lessee, in each round you are playing 4 games to win …
1st 6.25% == 1.5625% per win
2nd 12.5% == 3.125% per win
3rd 25% == 6.25% per win
4th 50% == 12.5% per win
So by that argument, we’ll need to get into the second round to have crossed the 10% threshold.
If we win this first series and at least a game or two in the 2nd round, I think we’ll have to consider you officially ‘wrong’ on this, Roy!
:-)
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Im 50/50 on this. We might be able to, but I think its almsot easy if Shaq could play well for even ten a night
JO looks very good but Shaq is one of the great offensive forces in history EVEN NOW. Its very much like having an old Wilt out there. But the foul issue is the main thing. Having 12 fouls to give from two very good big centers is a huge thing and will be key against the better teams
Very, very true.
Good point, which hasn’t been said much.
Maybe Shaq’s biggest contribution will be just that, six fouls and the scare he puts into teams when they try to get into the lane. If you have either Shaq or JO on the floor, teams are thinking twice before driving to the hoop, it’s going to end in one of two ways, you get fouled… hard and get to the line (maybe once in a great awhile managing an And 1) or you get blocked, that’s about it. Not exactly a welcome party.
I highly doubt teams are thinking twice about that when Krstic or Davis is out there though…
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Can Celtics defeat Knicks in game 2?
More than the absence of Shaq, I hope Celtics wins game 2.
Yes, if the Celtics play defense for 48 min instead of 25 in the second half, then they can beat the Knicks with no problem.
by C'sFanfrmNy on Apr 19, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
With KG, PP, RR, RA, JO, DW, JG, BBD
we are capable of beating any team in the playoffs…
Celtic Chat Handle: Bird
by David Henderson on Apr 19, 2011 10:03 AM EDT reply actions
If Kritic can give us something, that gives us 9 QUALITY players.
How many teams rely on nine guys?
When arguing against the Perk trade.....
All I read on this blog was how the team was so much better with Shaq, the offense is so much better with Shaq, Rondo is a far better player with Shaq on the floor, Shaq clogs up the middle on defense, Shaq is tough and loves to give hard fouls, and on and on and on and on. Danny defended the trade with Shaq as one of the key reasons for making it. Now, I am supposed to believe that if Shaq can’t come back, or if he comes back and is not effective, that the Celts can still win the championship. Not buying it. The answer is a definitive, “no.”
All of these things were true.
But at no point does anyone argue “The Celtics are no good without Shaq.”
Which seems to be the correlation you’re creating, as if the only reason Danny made the trade was because of Shaq, and without him, well this team just sucks.
The answer would be a definitive, “it is possible.” But no one is saying it would be easy, and I won’t even go as far as to say likely. We need Shaq, I won’t argue against that, he will help the team immensely. Without him, things get much, much more difficult, but it can be done.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
While I probably agree with much regarding Perk
It is on the team we put on the floor.
I believe this team should still be able to ride the starters to the finals with Doc as the 5. miami and chicago are just not there yet.
by Warrior Spirit on Apr 19, 2011 10:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Miami is looking like they would manhandle us
The bulls are definitely showing weaknesses in that series so far, but they always find a way to squeak out and come out with a win. They rimind me of the 08 celts btw. Kyle Korver and his late minute 3’s = 08 Ray Allen. Noah is just a beast hands down.
by celticswavesurfer on Apr 19, 2011 10:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Why, because of one good win... against Philly?
Philly matches up horrible with Miami. Philly succeeds best in a fast pace, run and gun game. This just happens to be playing into what Miami is the best in the NBA at.
That series means nothing for what will happen when they play Boston.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Exactly!
Miami has beaten up on the ‘lil’ sisters of the poor’ all season long…………and Philly is one of those.
I wouldn't go that far.
Philly is a good team, in the right match up. But they just can’t compete with Miami, Philly doesn’t have a dominant inside presence that can really impact a game underneath, and exploit Miami’s only major weakness. Brand is a nice player and all, but he’s not going to single handedly take over a game.
Philly’s best players are on the perimeter (Iggy, Meeks, Holiday) who succeed best out in transition, and Miami is just better than them at it. Miami takes everything Philly does well, and just does it better, and Philly can’t do anything that Miami does not do well.
Just a bad match up for them.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Miami is looking stronger than Chi.
Yes is against lesser team but they look solid, Chicago is having hard time to beat a young Indiana team (and getting all the calls, especially Rose throwing his body against the opponent and getting always a call from the refs) so far Miami looks better, probably Thibs lack of playoff experience is showing up, hope Indiana beats Chicago (hate to see Rose getting all the calls).
Indiana is not a deep team
but their best 5-man unit of Collison, Dunleavy, Granger, McRoberts & Hibbert is one of the best units in the NBA, posting a +13.57 overall rating on 443.4 minutes of play.
That unit is way higher rated than any of Chicago’s top 5-man units (that have played any significant minutes).
Indiana’ s problem has been lack of depth behind those guys.
Now that we are in the playoffs, where teams play their top units more minutes, Indiana is presenting a much tougher obstacle than a lot of people probably expected. I would not be surprised if they win at least a couple in this series against the Bulls.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Miami was looking like a juggernault winning 20 of 21 by trouncing weaker teams when we faced them for game #3, until we shut them up.
Miami is like the big bully in the neighborhood until someone punches them in the mouth, then they shrink right up.
There’s no other way to size them up.
by wayne7779311 on Apr 19, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Impossible is nothing
Yes, but it will be harder. I am sure he gets a shot and plays when we need him
by Warrior Spirit on Apr 19, 2011 10:41 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
The Perkins trade was based upon their reliance on Shaq
All you have to do is look at the following 2 quotes that Ainge gave to SI.com in defending the trade of Perkins:
“We were leading the conference because of Shaq. We had a better record with Shaq than we did with Perk. Our offense was better and our defense was at least the same.”
“Now if Shaq and Jermaine [O’Neal] can’t play we could be in trouble.”
In trading Perkins, it was clear that they were relying on Shaq’s ability to play and contribute. Big mistake. They have left themselves in a very vulnerable position down low without Perk. Shaq may never play, and we can’t expect much of him if he does. Jermaine had a great Game 1, but we can’t expect that much from him every game. If they get past NY, the Celts will struggle later in the playoffs against the better teams. Trading Perk was a mistake, pure and simple.
Not until they lose is it.
And then even still, I’d argue there was no guarantee they win even with Perk, but I have no doubt everyone will blame the trade of course.
History will be the judge.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
The mistake was DA decision to keep Davis instead of Petk
Because money wise, LAL, Dallas, Orlando, etc are way over the salary cap than us, IDK if is part of the strategy (save money) to get Howard come to Boston, and Doc has to start using JG talent or this deal will keep looking like a very stupid deal. JO can have a decent playoffs but if the rest of the team are not playing A+ game level they won’t win it all.
He won't end up keeping either, IMHO.
But the difference is, no one was going to give up the kind of package he got for Perk.
Honestly, you think there was a team out there willing to give up a Jeff Green (also star potential player) plus a Clippers first round pick… for Glen Davis?
Not a chance.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
still want to know what the other deal was that doc turned down
was it to another contender? who were the players? was it a player doc doesnt like?
hopefully, when the playoffs are done, someone asks and gets an anwser
i too think BBD is gone after the season too. ainge doesnt want to give out $$$ and years right now to anyone. hopefully, we get a taller PF who can really get after it on defense
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Apr 19, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
And who can, ya know... actually shoot.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Taking charges isn't playing defense?
It gets us the ball, puts us in the penalty, and gives the other team foful trouble.
Taking one or two charges a game is D?
I prefer a real PF with size and leap,not a short guy shooting any ball he touches, and not talk about him playing C.
BBD plays good body defense, i admit
he can muscle alot of guys but most guys just shoot over. in fact opposing players shoot 49% against BBD
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Apr 19, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
jmn501, answer these questions:
If we keep Perkins, who is backing up Pierce at small forward? How many PPG did Perkins give us? Where was Perkins the last 6 minutes of any ball game?
This was about more than Perkins. It was about finding a backup for Pierce since Marquis went down. I really think if Marquis stayed healthy Danny doesn’t make this trade.
The decision was taken before Marquis went down.
Don’t understand why the C’s didn’t want to give Perkins more money, many teams are way higher than us in salary cap.
"The decision was taken before Marquis went down."
Could you explain this statement, please?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
DA wasn't going to resign Petkins next year, according to the C's he wanted more money
That what was offered him and wanted to try FA and the team didn’t think he worth that much, this was before Marquis went down, he won’t be sign next year, I think the trade was inevitable.
okay, so you meant specifically "the decision to trade Perkins"
Not necessarily the decision to trade Perkins mid-season in order to secure a SF to backup Pierce.
There was still several possible paths that Danny could have taken if Daniels had not gotten injured.
He could have traded Perk for something else.
He could have offered Perk more in the summer, possibly getting Perk at a below-market home-town discount while still giving him a decent raise. Risky, but possible, if Perk really just wanted a fair raise yet still wanted to stay a Celtic.
He could have executed an S&T in the summer in order to get back value for him even if he ended up going elsewhere. This might not have resulted in as much value as we got, but it would have been more than nothing.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
You get little argument from me
I dropped of the face of CelticsBlog due to the perk trade and my disbelief. Feeling it a bad idea to rely on either O’Neal, both of whom I believed could be clutch, but never wanted to rely on them. Do I think they can win a title wihout the help of both? It would certainly be tough, and I hope they could. Anything is possible. But is all on the team we put on the court.
Our best chance puts KG and Shaq on the court at the same time with Jermaine anchoring the D of the 2nd unit IMO.
by Warrior Spirit on Apr 19, 2011 4:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes we can win
But we need more from JG and Kristic, and Big Baby less time playing C and passing the ball, I’m hoping Doc can design some plays for JG, we haven’t tae advantage of his talent, and the starters need to give him more touches, I still thinking he can win a game for us.
we can but it would be hard
the only center in the eastern playoffs that worries me offensively is howard. so shaq is really only needed for the intimidation factor and because it opens up the offense even more.
getting a healthy shaq back like we had in the first half of the year would be huge. we had the 2nd best record and best defense then. add in a healthy and rejuvinated jermaine and i think we got a real chance at a ring.
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Apr 19, 2011 10:50 AM EDT reply actions
also
it takes BBD away from the center position.
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Apr 19, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed
i would think we’d of seen green and KG together more i guess they want KG on amare
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Apr 19, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
A couple of thoughts regarding the Yes/No referendum on Title 18
i) To be honest, I think Rondo is more important than Shaq. Look around and see what the elite point guards are doing so far in the playoffs as well as what they’ve meant all season long. RR literally carried our team in the playoff series against the Bulls when KG was out (09 I believe). If he plays consistently like an All Star that he is supposed to be, we can win with Jermaine manning the 5. I’m not sure he can be consistent enough, and this is coming from a huge Rondo fan.
ii) Rondo can lead this team with JO playing center, even if JO is not as dominant as he was in game 1. We don’t know how he’ll hold up.
Actually I know JO had knee surgery but I don’t know what was done. If I knew the exact injury and procedure I might have a better opinion on his ability to play at this current level throughout the playoffs. It has been published that his rehab and training to return to health has gone better than hoped. That’s good news.
iii) From what I hear and read of the Shaq injury, it doesn’t sound good to me from a medical perspective. It would seem that he’ll be game to game for quite a while.
iv) So my answer to the poll question rests more with Rondo than with Shaq. Yes Shaq would make the task a bit easier. But this team, as currently constituted and having nothing to do with Saint Perkins, can only win with the All Star version of Rajon Rondo.
Exactly.
If Rondo is healthy and engaged, he gives us energy. I don’t see Wade or Rose rebound like Rondo does. And Rondo’s energy is the key.
I think we can survive without Shaq if, God willing, JO stays healthy and continues to improve and we get production from Kristic, Green, Baby, Delonte. The pieces are there. Shaq will make it much easier if he can come back and contribute, but we can win without him.
Miami had the worst bench in the league. Who’s Chicago’s bench. They’re not deep. If Rondo pushes the tempo, and again, God willing, we stay healthy, we should wear out the other teams.
Very true.
RR is very very lethal when he decides to bring his A game. I still remember some of the key games of the season: 24 assists against the Knicks, him guarding Lebron, the recent game against the Spurs, one of the early games against the Hawks. I love it when he drives to the hoop, he’s almost unbeatable that way.
If Rondo plays like that, I believe that JO will suffice.
And one more point...........
v) If Jeff Green can somehow manage to play with full utilization of the talent he has, everyone’s job would be much easier, including the coach.
Probably won't happen this year
Jeff Green needs to learn to play defense, but it’s not something everyone can learn mid-season, let alone at all.
We’ll see.
I would like to see more Kristic...
…and less Big Baby. We can win without Shaq if Doc gives Kristic a chance and he and JOneal can play most of the center minutes.
What is this based on? He’s healthy enough to play in the play offs. Do you have some reference where his conditioning was an issue? He looked to be in good shape to me.
by Yogesh Raghunathan on Apr 19, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
30 per game from JO by 2nd round
and we’re in the finals at least.
Could this team win with Perk at center?
For all you Perk lovers (and I was one) I believe the answer is YES and I believe JO in Game 1 was every bit as good as Perk could have been. So if Celts + Perk = Championship and JO = Perk then Celts + JO = Championship.
Forget about Shaq. We play who we got and there is enough there.
Good use of the transitive property.
You get a gold star.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
well said
ultimately, so long as the C position is at least decent (and JO looks to be way more than decent if he stays healthy) then it will come down, like it always has, to the Big 4.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
You're forgetting some things...
First, many people thought this was a championship with Perk starting and JO or Shaq backing him up. That’s two or three legit big men. When you get rid of Perk, and get rid of Shaq, and expect JO to do it on his own I think there would be a lot more doubters. It’s arguable whether Perk + Rasheed was enough last year. Downgrading that to JO + Krstic would make our chances remote, at best.
Second, I don’t think JO is as good as Perk. He’s an inferior overall defender and a poorer rebounder. He’s less familiar with the team, both on offense and defense. He’s a better offensive player (at least, when healthy), but I don’t think he’s better overall.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
depends a lot on just how healthy he is
during his prime, JO was a far, far better player overall than Perk ever was. He was just as good on defense and way better on offense.
The question is what percentage of that we are likely to get out of JO?
So far this year, even before ‘fixing’ his knees, his defense was solid – statistically right there with Perk’s. Since he came back, his offense finally looks to have picked up to be closer to his historical abilities.
A lot of questions and uncertainties. But if anything, that is what makes it more interesting to watch it all play out!
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
You're seeing something that I'm not...
Since he came back, his offense finally looks to have picked up to be closer to his historical abilities.
In April, he averaged 5.8 points on 45.2% shooting. He had a very nice Game 1, of course, but what he’s shown since coming back is a far, far cry from the All-Star player he used to be, in my opinion.
As for his defense, agree to disagree, I guess. JO is a better shot-blocker than Perk has been this year, but as an overall defender I like Perk better.
Of course, in an ideal world we’d have both plus Shaq, but that boat has sailed.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I'm referring specifically to how he's looked in his last reg season game and this first playoff game.
These are the first games where he’s gotten real extended runs of minutes as well as taken a decent volume of shots. His touch shot looks a lot better in these last two games than it did pre-injury. That little 5-7 foot touch jumper has always been one of his signature weapons on offense and at least in these last two games it looked as good as it ever did for him.
Basically, in those last two games (59+ minutes) he shot 12 of 22 (55%) and just plain looked very confident around the hoop on offense.
Again, as I said above, the big question is just how healthy he is and how close to the ‘classic’ Jermain O’Neal of the past he can be. During his career, he has been an excellent defensive big man. His career DRB% is identical to Perks (~22%) and his career DRtg is actually better (98 v 101) – and JO has not had the benefit of playing next to KG for as long a span (KG helps bring down everybody’s DRtg). Whether JO really can be that same player remains to be seen. But early signs are good.
One thing in particular about Jermaine that is very attractive over Perk is that because Jermaine can make free throws (career 71% FT% – better over recent years) Doc can put JO out on the floor late in games and not be so reliant on Big Baby.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Get in Shape
Someone send Shaq to Chicago to Jermaine’s trainer. Have him back for the ECF at the latest.
Shaq got injured because he was too heavy for his age. Just because he’s injured now doesn’t mean he should be doing nothing. He needs to be exercising and stretching 6 hours a day. Weight loss and aerobic exercise does wonders for recovery.
No substantiation to this.
I mean there’s no questions more weight = more stress on the body. But you can’t just say “he was too fat so that’s why he got hurt.”
These things just happen, especially over the career he’s had. Honestly guys, really think about it, steps in Doc Brown’s Delorian (sp?) and go back 15 years, did anyone in their right mind really believe Shaq would be still be playing, 15 years later, pushing 40?
That fact that he’s even still upright after the amount of miles and the pounding he’s put on those tires over the years is a testament to his work ethic. You just simply don’t stay in the game that long if you haven’t been working to keep yourself in shape your entire life… just ask Rasheed Wallace.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
You're right; and it's a miracle that he's still playing
All I’m saying is look at Jermaine. We should get his trainer from Chicago to take a look at Shaq.
If Shaq is limping around right now, it might be difficult for him to find the motivation to keep moving. But he has to keep his body moving even if that activity is not running or playing basketball. He can’t just be sitting around waiting to heal.
As you get older, physical fitness becomes even more important. Jordan lifted weights every day (including game days) to prevent injury. Kareem did yoga.
Makes perfect sense.
A guy carving his place in history clearly doesn’t have proper motivation like guys sitting on their couches criticizing the conditioning of professional athletes. So what if doctors say that it’s poor blood supply to the area, and the only way to heal is time? We have non-expert opinions based on wild speculation and lack of knowledge that says Shaq has to keep his body moving.
by Yogesh Raghunathan on Apr 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't think this is a conditioning issue
JO and Shaq have completely different injuries.
Judging from the pictures I’ve seen and the buzz among the various ‘insiders’, Shaq looks like he’s definitely done his part to work into good conditioning shape.
The problem is the nature of his injury. There is no magic silver bullet healing therapy (either medical or training) that can speed up the healing of an Achilles tendon. They are just plain notorious to heal slowly.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
An exercise bike is great therapy.
It’ll keep weight off, increase blood flow to the legs, and expedite healing. Also no impact.
All that is good, but it will probably have virtually no affect towards helping his Achilles tendon.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
and the 400 pounds he puts on it everytime he steps
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Apr 19, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
This reminds me of the Bill Walton of 1987
Robert Parish said it best when asked if the Cs could beat the Lakers in the Finals without Walton. He said,“Ya have to play with the cards that were dealt ya.” Celtics lost that year BTW.
by thereallargejames on Apr 19, 2011 12:32 PM EDT reply actions
Damn right we can!
The mentality that you “need X to win Y” sets you up for a bad psychological footing when you don’t have X.
Best to just try your hardest and think you can win, and see how it turns out.
So yes, I think the Celtics can win without Shaq, because otherwise we’re on a defeatist path of relying on one player when we have more than a few destined for the halls of fame already.
How would the Cs look with Howard in the middle?
It’s a distinct possibility in a year or so.
by thereallargejames on Apr 19, 2011 2:18 PM EDT reply actions
Why Orl want at his age KG.
You have to think like you are Orl owner. What do you want for your team. A 2 year rental of KG or sometine like RR, Jeff G, picks even Ray
If Howard decides to leave Orlando
They wouldn’t want what happened to Clev. So maybe something decent in exchange.
WE GOTTA GIVE UP RAY AND KG FOR DWIGHT
and pick up some kind of 6th Guard (Eyenga or Harris?) so Sasha Pav could do a ‘12 minutes starter’ thing. Yea u guys are like WHAT??? but it is a very smart idea. Look:
Dwight+Pierce+Rondo+Glen+JO+D West+ Wafer + Bradley(lolz)+Guard?=Banner 18
Boston Celtics Future 2011 Finals Winners
(Boston Celtics) BOS 1-1 LAF (Los Angeles Fakers)
by OttawaCeltic on Apr 21, 2011 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Who should have won?
I thought Odom was clearly deserving.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
by Roy_Hobbs on Apr 19, 2011 3:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd put BBD in the running
He plays like a starter from our bench. What would our season record be without him?
by garden_harvest on Apr 19, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Odom was better pretty much across the board...
Odom scored more points, grabbed more boards, had a higher FG%, had more assists, was a better outside shooter, etc., etc. Plus, he played (slightly) more minutes for a better team.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Hate to say it, but I think no.
Krstic just doesn’t plays defensive at the level Sheed did when it mattered. Even with Sheed and Perk we were in trouble because of early fouls etc. in many games. Nobody wants to think about a game against CHI, LA or OKC where JO has to sit the majority of time because of foul trouble and Krstic and Baby would have to clog the middle.
odom definitely deserved it
by celticswavesurfer on Apr 19, 2011 3:26 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Close Call
My feelings on this are about as close as the vote. I think the C’s can win #18 this year without Shaq, but it is very iffy. With Shaq it is less iffy, but still no sure thing. Is it ever?
a big no .
there is no way in hell we beat the magic or bulls without shaq and a big no if we meet the lakers in the finals this team is struggling playing against rony turiaf in the middle cmon lets get serious here .
lohaus #54
Its all about SHAQ, Its all about Banner 18
Boston Celtics Future 2011 Finals Winners
(Boston Celtics) BOS 1-1 LAF (Los Angeles Fakers)
Its all about Dwight, Its all about Banner 18
We dont get him, Ainge goes bye bye
Boston Celtics Future 2011 Finals Winners
(Boston Celtics) BOS 1-1 LAF (Los Angeles Fakers)
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