Orlando Sentinel: Dwight Howard Is A Greater Defensive Presence Than Bill Russell. Seriously, They Wrote it. Not Even Kidding.
Now now, they try to back off of it. They really do. They talk about how it's 'hard to compare players from different eras', and how 'Bill Russell may have averaged between 4-5 blocks per game compared to Howard's 2.75', but the gist of the message is the same; Dwight Howard is a better defender than Bill Russell.
These are the words that the Orlando Sentinel laughingly pretends they're not standing by. They continue to foist them upon Matt Guokas, a player who played against Bill Russell, and with Wilt Chamberlain. 'Who could be better?' you might ask. Well, I'd start with someone who isn't paid by the Orlando Magic, but I'll let the eviseration of Matt Guokas and the Orlando Sentinel occur in the comments section.
This is what the Orlando Sentinel said:
Is Dwight Howard greater defensive player than Bill Russell? Magic commentator Matt Guokas thinks so:
"All you old-timers out there, take your blood pressure medicine, put on a soothing rendition of Mel Torme singing "Fly Me to the Moon" and brace yourself for what you are about to hear:
Dwight Howard is a better defensive center than Bill Russell.That’s right, BILL RUSSELL.
There are a lot of things to consider here, and you should read the whole article. 1) Is this all for attention? (Yes) 2) Should Orlando stop worrying about how Dwight 'Zero Rings' Howard stacks up against Bill Russell and start worrying about the Atlanta Hawks? (YES!) and 3) Should Orlando, when and if they escape the Hawks, and then are inevitably erased from the playoffs by the Bulls, start worrying about what they'll get back for Dwight WHEN(not if) he sprints for Los Angeles, New Jersey, or even *gasp!* Boston? (YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!)
So yeah, totally take this seriously.
Props to Celticsblog user CeltsFan336, and the good people at RedsArmy.
PS: Dwight Howard is to Bill Russell as House Party 3 is to House Party 2. That is all.
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Let me know when Smiley goes up against someone
like Wilt. I’ll wait.
Thanks for the props man!!
I love the analagy at the end, sums up the article haha
But about the “blocking shots into the stands” how about how Russell would block the ball to him teamates?
100% correct. I was trying not to get into particulars, but 100% correct.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Apr 27, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Great advice!
Hold on, I’ll take some cyanide and catch up with him…
Believe
by Green Oracle on Apr 28, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
he's not there yet
but IMO he could be. Dwight is a beast in the paint. Put him on the C’s and you’re looking at a 5-7 year window for contending.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
Disagree
Dwight Howard is the best defensive player of his era (the ERA after KG but before the next guy). But, he’s not dominatingly the best. Not like Bill Russell. There are other centers out there who are just a step or two behind Howard. He’s an amazing talent, a great franchise centerpiece, and the best center currently playing basketball. But Andrew Bogut, Joakim Noah, they’re not that far behind Dwight in terms of defensive ability. Russell stood alone.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Apr 27, 2011 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Joakim Noah and Andrew Bogut??
That’s a stretch. Dwight is a game changer on D, Orlando’s defense was/is predicated on Dwight’s ability to cover for everyone else’s mistakes, kind of like how KG was in Minny. The unfortunate thing is he’s being asked to carry the offensive load there too. 48 mins in a playoff game? Come on, when did Bill ever play that?
Dwight eats guys like Noah and Bogut for breakfast.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 27, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Dwight is better but you're underestimating Noah and Bogut.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Apr 27, 2011 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt it. Noah and Bogut don’t have the raw athleticism that Dwight does and never will. That’s what makes him the best of his era.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 27, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
All 3 have long arms. Dwight is undersized (so was Russell), and Bogut is the only true center among them. I feel Noah works harder on the court. It’s possible in a couple of years either of these guys can be better than Dwight. Not likely, but possible.
by Yogesh Raghunathan on Apr 27, 2011 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 28, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
What defines this era?
I guess Mutombo is from a previous era, but better than Dwight on D.
Jesus Shuttlesworth: I hate my name. What kind of name is Jesus anyway?
Jake Shuttlesworth: It's biblical.
Jesus Shuttlesworth: Yeah, no kidding.
by jakeshuttlesworth on Apr 28, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Ben Wallace is part of this era
Jesus Shuttlesworth: I hate my name. What kind of name is Jesus anyway?
Jake Shuttlesworth: It's biblical.
Jesus Shuttlesworth: Yeah, no kidding.
by jakeshuttlesworth on Apr 28, 2011 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah I should probably retract.
Good question.. Mutombo was more a part of the Jordan era and Wallace more a part of the Shaq-Lakers era, so maybe the post-Shaq-Lakers era (Gasol-Lakers era)? In any case, I’d say one of the best if not the best.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 28, 2011 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha true but we can't be defining eras by who is playing for the Lakers
We are now in the Big 3 in Boston Era. Before that….well that was the Dark Ages.
Jesus Shuttlesworth: I hate my name. What kind of name is Jesus anyway?
Jake Shuttlesworth: It's biblical.
Jesus Shuttlesworth: Yeah, no kidding.
by jakeshuttlesworth on Apr 28, 2011 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, I was thinking about that too
Sucks but as they say, history is written by the victors. Great to be living in the KG-PP-RA Big 3 era though!
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 28, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Raw Athleticism?
Gerald Green had that.
The point is how a guy plays- a combination of ability, skill & intelligence.
Howard gets lots of blocked shots for this era, and can rebound well. He’s exceptional in those areas. But you don’t see the defensive results as the anchor of that defense.
KG still leads the best defensive team, both with and without Perkins. It is KG who anchors it. I’ll go by results and both KG and Noah (hate to admit it, ‘cos I can’t stand him) have the results of anchoring a team defense.
That is what set Russell apart- not just stats, but the main stat: wins over elite competition. Howard only advanced against a Celtics team without their anchor.
simul justus et peccator
The point of a comparison is to make a fair comparison
I.e., apples to apples. Russell also had the benefit of Red Auerbach. Noah now has Thibs. Dwight has the benefit of… Stan Van Gundy.
Look up KG’s statistics in Minny and compare them to Dwight’s. Bottom line is, Dwight’s stats are just as good as KG’s on the defensive end. I’m keen on seeing him in green & white, is all.
KG: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3007/career;ylt=Avw02pVYEDsazc5ow3MMOIOPKB4
Dwight: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3818/career;ylt=Avw02pVYEDsazc5ow3MMOLzPKB4
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 28, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Dwight is this year's MVP.
… but can’t compare to Russell until he gets a couple of rings. After all, defense wins championships right?
Dwight is stronger and more athletic, but doesn’t possess the IQ, rebounding skills (he’s good but not Russell good) or the passing (that’s important to start the break after defense). Maybe if he can keep his elbows in, and stop goofing off we can talk.
by Yogesh Raghunathan on Apr 27, 2011 11:41 PM EDT reply actions
Russell the greatest defender ever and an innovator on d
name a nba center who was a top ten high jumper in the world
http://www.funtrivia.com/en/Sports/Bill-Russell-19444.html
He could stop Wilt when he had too though he was slender and 4-5 inches shorter. He dominated everyone else. Whats the point in discussing this? In 12 uninjured seasons he wins 11 titles. It will never ever ever bne topped. he was a different kind of cat. And the physical extension of his equally obsessed coach, and the love and respect they shared they shared
sorry, this just annoys me to no end. Red and Bill were a team and the closest we get to this now would be KG and Doc
and unfortunately for us it isn’t close. KG would be grabbing shots out of the air around the bucket and throwing fast breaks to Rondo. KG is the one who could be Bill if he wanted it even more
Russell didn’t stop Wilt in his matchups but he slowed him down and made him work for his buckets. Take a look at the box scores from their games.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
In fact, here's a quick link for you wahz.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 27, 2011 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
i watched them play against each other which is why I said "when he had too"
Celtics fan really?or is this another Miami invasion. Man do I hate the stat nonsense everyone loves to quote in Yahoo! world. Welcome to Yahoo! World where Dwight freaking Howard is better than Russ.
Excuse me while I puke
I’m not trying to be a Howard-homer, nor am I trying to degrade Russell’s accomplishments. Bill & Red’s relationship is one of the big reasons why I love this team. But I think it’s really inaccurate to say that he could stop Wilt whenever he felt like it. To me, that’s degrading to Wilt’s game.
And you don’t score 100 points in an NBA game without being something special. That’s all.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 28, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Wilt scored 100 in a garbage game. Point whoring is never meaningful.
by Black Celtic Saint on Apr 29, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Please.
I’d like to see more of these “100 point” point whoring episodes if they’re so meaningless.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on May 1, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Leaving aside the fact
that Guokas is essentially giving Howard a lot of credit for living in an era were athletic training and equipment are waaaaaay more advanced, he seems to be of the opinion that skill has nothing to do with defense. “Of course he’s a better defender. Didn’t you see him in the dunk contest?”
it's all in the cape
Jesus Shuttlesworth: I hate my name. What kind of name is Jesus anyway?
Jake Shuttlesworth: It's biblical.
Jesus Shuttlesworth: Yeah, no kidding.
by jakeshuttlesworth on Apr 28, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Dwight Howard
Never had to play THE FINALS IN ATLANTA, GEORGIA during 1957 and 1958… confederate flags and all waving in the stands… Dwight will never be HALF of the player that Russell was!
Believe
C's FTW :)
I think that’s why the Clippers might never make it even though they have the talent to do make waves next year.
Bleed Green. What does it mean?
by CelticsHooRah on Apr 28, 2011 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Aaahahahahahahahhahaahahhaah
Ha. wipes tears from eyes that was a good one!
by Warrior Spirit on Apr 28, 2011 1:15 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Howard to Russell is like a piece of lint
to a Sequoia. How could anyone be more of a homer than that? I know one thing Smiley’s better at than Russell, throwing elbows then going “who me?”
LOL
There’s comedy, there’s high comedy and there´s The Orlando Sentinel….. And then, there´s Matt Guokas. Good joke dude, I really enjoyed it.
Nicknamed Slantinel
It was a pretty miserable excuse for a paper, in just about every area. I’m surprised it isn’t past tense yet.
simul justus et peccator
Blasphemy. LOL.
"The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot."
- Bill Russell
Style over substance
As I point out on the Fan Page, there’s a lot of evidence that Howard isn’t even the greatest defensive player of his own era, let alone of all-time. That Magic article was much more shock value than substance.
Someone has gotten to Matt Goukas
Paid him off to say stupid stuff in an effort to kiss up to Dwight Howard in a last ditch attempt to keep him in Orlando
What a magnificently stupid opinion
by bbeingphilled on Apr 28, 2011 9:00 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
i almost garee but don't
i think if you took howard and placed in him in the russel era he might be the greatest player of all time but you can say that for a lot of players, the talent level back then was way lower, i have heard tommy say there is no way he could keep up with half these guys today and he’s a hall of famer and its true that he couldnt, its not fair to judge guys that way though, you can only judge them based on what era they plaid in and saying howard is as good as russel is a joke.
Put A Young Bill Russell Into This Era
It’s hard to compare these things, but put a healthy Bill Russell into this era and I don’t think this would even be a topic of discussion. Most of us didn’t see Russ play and don’t understand what he gave to the game. I only saw the tail end of his career and am just coming to appreciate what he did.
You also need to consider that Bill Russell wasn’t just a basketball player who when he wasn’t playing went home to play video games. Russ was at the center of racial issues that Dwight, etc., don’t even need to think about because of what Russ did. When Russ left the garden to go home to Reading he was met with personal racial issues as well. On top of this he was able to play basketball at a higher level than most. Also consider that Dwight is young and has been healthy most of his career. The wear and tear took it’s toll on Russ as he got older and he still was the greatest player of his and our time.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn
Not tomention those hops and shot blocking skills would still translate
Russell worked on his craft. If he really had all world high jump talent, do you really think he would not tirelessly hone his craft to be dominant now as well. Yeah he may not have been the best ever or won 11 chips in this era, but he would be no less than a KG in his prime and that is no chopped liver.
This whole arguement is moot. Russell changed the way the game was played, blocked shots to his teammates instead of row 20, won 11 championships to 0, and Howard is actually not even THAT good of a man on man post defender. Plus the biggest difference is the fire within, Russell had the heart of a champion, Howard is a clown.
by Warrior Spirit on Apr 28, 2011 12:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Russell was once asked how he would have done against Kareem to which he replied, “Young man, you have the question backwards.”
Dwight vs Bill
Bill Russell was the first NBA player to play above the rim. Russ invented the concept of defense. Russ blocked shots were basically equal to passes. Russ used psychology his game.
From another poster: [“The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot.”
- Bill Russell
by Marjun Raposon]
Don’t think Dwight could even come up with this concept.
Basically, Bill Russell changed the game of basketball, Dwight has not done anything to change anything. Bill Russell doesn’t have enough fingers to put his rings on—Dwight——.
Nuff said.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn
Howard wasn't even the best defensive player THIS YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kevin Garnett was far and away the best defensive player this year and its a joke that Howard once again was named DPOY by rep.
’Not to say that Howard is not a great defensive player. But much of his accolades have come by way of reputation and not necessarily by way of results.
The only defensive big man of this last decade that I would begin to compare to Russell would be KG and only because KG has a similar effect on his team’s defense that Russell had. And yes I am including KG’s career in both MIN and BOS. As individual players though, in different eras, it is silly to compare them.
Howard is a huge, athletic presence in the post. He enables his teams to play a certain way. But I don’t think he really has changed the game nor does he elevate the play of his teammates the way Russell did and KG does.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Disagree
Without Dwight Howard’s game-changing help defense and ability to make-up for his teammates’ mistakes, Orlando is not only a lottery team…they’re a BAD lottery team.
The best defensive player on Orlando outside of Howard is Jason Richardson (or Q Rich, take your pick I guess). They traded/failed to resign their best non-Howard defenders in Gortat, Pietrus, and Barnes.
Dwight Howard was the best defender this season, and I don’t think Garnett was really all that close.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Apr 28, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
well, it depends on how you want to measure defense
if it is going to be by subjective intangibles, then there is no argument – because that would be just both sides expressing an opinion.
But pretty much every statistical measure of defense gives KG a substantial edge over Howard this year. Indeed, it really wasn’t all that close.
As bad as you claim Howard’s surrounding cast was, his defensive on/off rating (-3.0) was not that impressive – especially compared to KG’s (-6.2). (Points surrendered per 100 possessions).
As great as we (rightfully) like to think our Celtics team is, when KG has not been on the floor, our defense has seriously gone south. And that has always been the case with him. KG is a one-man defensive game changer of historical nature.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I wonder about how useful that is.
The on/off statistic for Howard and KG, I mean.
KG is probably the guy that most plays with the full starters’ rotation. KG is usually the first one out, and rarely does he play with a lineup that does not feature Rondo, Pierce, and Allen. The only sub that has significant time next to KG is Glen Davis. So, it would follow that the Celtics’ starting 5+sixth man would be a far better lineup than one featuring multiple non-starters. Howard on the other hand leads all centers in minutes played per game at 37 per. He also plays with a wide assortment of players, featuring both starters and non-starters. So, you would expect the on/off statistic to be a little more acute in KG’s case than Dwights, as Howard has less talent to begin with, and has many more variables in the lineup than KG does.
Other on/off court measures were also pretty close. Howard is a -2.2% eFG allowed, while KG is a -1.9%. Howard is a +2 shots blocked while KG is a 0, They have similar assisted FG% allowed,
Considering that KG plays almost exclusively with the starters, and the only sub is a potential sixth man of the year candidate, I think that KG’s on/off statistics aren’t that compelling compared with Dwights.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Apr 28, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Except
when you look at the other Celtic ‘starters’ minutes without KG – for example during the games he missed while injured – the drop-off is real. If KG’s surrounding talent is so much better – then why does their defense drop off so much more dramatically without him?
KG only had RR, RA & PP all on the floor with him at the same time for about half his minutes. And he had a revolving door next to him at the other big man spot. So its not quite correct to say that he played ‘almost exclusively with the starters’. Looking casually over their respective 5-man minutes played data at basketballvalue.com, I would guess that both Howard and Garnett both played with a similar distribution of different players.
Even if we did accept that KG was playing almost exclusively with the starters – because he tends to get most of his minutes at the start and finish of games -isn’t he also thus primarily playing against opposing team’s starters?
Look – certainly KG played on a better overall defensive team – arguably the league’s best defensive team. But KG was by far the most important reason the Celtics were such a dominant defensive team.
You also need to consider that KG plays against the top PFs in the NBA who are often the best scoring threats and also frequently lined up against the top C on opposing teams when paired with BBD. He moves frequently between both positions and usually will be given the tougher defensive assignment of the two. Howard plays C exclusively and generally has far fewer responsibilities on defense than KG takes on.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Agree to disagree I think, but I’m on my way out of work so I can’t go back into the minutes right now.
I’m looking at 82games.com, and I’m coming up with Garnett playing close to 80% of his minutes with starters, if you assume that A) most of the time with Erden/Robinson were during games where those guys were starting, which is pretty much guaranteed considering Garnett’s substitution rotation.
Howard played with a much larger assortment of guys, mostly because he plays 37 minutes a game. Its not only probable, its almost a certainty that Howard plays with more reserves in his lineups than Garnett does.
And that is a major reason behind the disparity between the two’s on/off points differential.
"Shaq is like paradise, man," Garnett said. "You ever wash your sheets and then go outside and hang them out, and the sun dries them? You ever smell the sheets? That’s what Shaq is, Shaq is like,"
Follow me on twitter
by Tom Bellinger on Apr 28, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
so you are considering time spent
with Nate, Semih, Chris Johnson, etc., to be ‘starters’ minutes, simply because they were in the game at the whistle?
I don’t know if that is a very sound way of partitioning it.
And again – to say that Howard played more minutes with reserves because he is playing those extra 8 minutes per game is also saying that he was also probably playing more minutes against reserves.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
I do have to grant that the extra minutes played by Howard have value.
And maybe that nets out in Howard’s favor overall in a quantity vs quality sense.
Some math may be in order, though.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
see my comment in drza44's thread (linked below) on this.
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
follow-up should probably move to drza44's thread
which tackles a more comprehensive take on this topic:
http://www.celticsblog.com/2011/4/28/2138729/howard-russell-and-kg-on-defense
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
Totally Absurd
Russ won 11 championships in 13 years. Russell was one of a handful if true competitors who wanted to win every game and gave their heart and soul to make it happen. To make that happen. He was 6’9" and owned 7’2" Wilt in the only head to head stat that means anything-winning.
If you insist on stats, Russ had a game of 51 rebounds and 2 of 49. He had 12 seasons of 1,000 or more rebounds. In the season when Wilt averaged 50 points a game, NBA PLAYERS voted Russ as the MVP. The league didn’t count blocked shots at the time, but I’d be willing to bet his avg was around 5,and the threat of his blocking was so strong, it kept many payers from even challenging him. Most of Russell’s blocs stayed in bounds, were, directed at teammates, or hauled in by Russ himself.
Howard is not as good as Chamberlain and Russ was the best ever. MJ might have been. He had the talent and close to the same competitive drive. But MJ never had a nemesis- his own “Wilt” to compete against.
nhttp://www.nba.com/history/players/russell_bio.htmlhttp://www.nba.com/history/players/russell_bio.html
Fantastic post
This is quite arguable I admit, but I for one am more impressed with 51 rebounds than 100 points. Wilt was obviously fed all night long with that purpose in mind, how does your team help you get rebounds over the other team besides the standard practice of boxing out?
Plus if memory serves from my track and field days (all be it high school) jumping that high takes a lot out of you, to do it that many times in a game is rediculous.
by Warrior Spirit on Apr 28, 2011 12:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ok... top ten defensive center lists... starting... NOW!
Off the top of my head, in their prime in the last decade, Mutumbo, Shaq, and Ben Wallace (Tim Duncan as PF/C) were better defenders than Howard.
I wasn’t alive for M. Malone, or Nate Thurmond, etc.
Nonsense
Just because somebody wrote that doesn’t mean any of us should pay any attention to it. Its not even worth discussing. I saw Russell and while Howard is a pretty good player I’d take Russell over anybody who has played before or since his era. Thus the comment that Howard is better than Russell or Chamberlain is totally without merit.
couldnt get Orlando out ot the first round
Dwight should consider Boston next year if he wants to win
I could only imagine:
Matt Guokas: Dwight’s better than you defensively.
Russell: I am, actually better than him.
Matt Guokas: Better? This is madness!!!! THIS IS BLASPHEMY!!!!
Russell: Madness? THIS IS BOSTON!!!!
by Celtics own the refs on Apr 29, 2011 8:15 AM EDT reply actions

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