Blow It Up, Retool, or Run It Back?
by Jeff Clark on May 13, 2011 6:06 AM EDT
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintThe question on everyone's mind is what Danny Ainge is going to do with the roster going forward. The way I see it, there are three separate philosophies. He could blow it all up and trade as many of the Big 4 as he can get good value for (meaning young players and picks). He could retool on the fly by trading just one of the Big 4 in exchange for a younger star that could still help us win a championship next year. Or he could do what he did this past year, which is to bring the core back and add as many pieces around them as he can. Let's break down the options.
Blow It Up
The idea here would be that you need to get value for these guys while you still can. The famous story about Danny urging Red to trade McHale and/or Bird never rang so true as it does today. The Heat taught us one lesson that should be heeded this summer: This team doesn't have the legs to dominate anymore. Would anyone really be surprised if KG regressed next year? How long can Ray keep plugging himself into the rejuvenation machine? And while it isn't age related, we have to start asking the question: Have we seen Rondo's peak value?
If you believe in buy low, sell high, the Celtics have until February to maximize the value on assets like Garnett, Allen, and Rondo. I'm purposely leaving Paul Pierce out of this discussion for two reasons. First of all, he's now the franchise icon that is virtually untradable because of his stature with the fans. Secondly, he's got a multi-year contract that wouldn't be deemed a good value by any buying teams.
Obviously it matters what he can find in terms of value out in the trade market. If teams don't want expiring contracts, there's not a lot of value in aging veterans - even ones as good as ours. But David Stern has told us time and time again that teams are losing money hand over fist and those teams would love nothing more than to rid themselves of large contracts. They might be willing to offer picks and young players for one of our expiring contracts. The rebuilding project would be fully in gear and the Celtics would likely be building around a core of Rajon Rondo and perhaps Jeff Green.
Retool on the Fly
If you can't stomach that plan (I don't think I can) but can't see running it back, then there's a middle ground solution.
If we trade either Kevin Garnett or Ray Allen, perhaps throwing in Jermaine O'Neal's contract, the Clippers pick, and maybe even offering up Jeff Green in a sign-and-trade, there's no telling what we could get in return. I don't think it is enough to get into the bidding war for Dwight Howard but it might be enough to get Igoudala in a salary dump. Would the Hornets bite on a Rondo package for Chris Paul?
How about the buyer's remorse teams? Would Atlanta decide that Joe Johnson isn't worth what they paid for him? Will Memphis decide that they are doing just fine without Rudy Gay? Will Milwaukee panic and deal Andrew Bogut? We just don't know until the market plays out. The key is, Danny has to evaluate what he can get for his trade assets.
The idea here is that if you can get one younger star-type player and plug them in with the remaining members of the current core, that might be enough to push the team over the top one last time.
Run It Back
The safest path and path of least resistance would be to bring the core back and try once again to load up around them. A lot will depend on the new collective bargaining agreement because it doesn't seem like the team has a lot of room to throw money at free agents. But that's not to say there's nothing out there at all. Zach Lowe looks at some potential options.
The Point Forward " Posts A few tweaks could keep Celtics in title mix
If the mid-level exists, the Celtics, given their pedigree, might be able to lure someone like Chandler, Samuel Dalembert, Crawford or Caron Butler to sign for the full amount even if they could get more on the open market. Or they could split it among a couple of players (Carl Landry? Battier?). But that is all unknown for now. If the biannual exception (worth $2.1 million this season) still exists, Boston will have access to that, plus the veteran’s minimum exception, which will probably carry over to the next CBA.
A lot of those guys would make a lot of sense here if they would accept what we have to offer. But would it be enough to compete for a Championship? Maybe. It would take some luck, good health, and the development of younger players to eat up more minutes to keep the veterans fresh. The problem is, we've seen this movie twice now, and it is starting to become predictable.
I'll let you guys cast your votes and make your own case, but I'm leaning towards the middle option of retooling on the fly. I don't know if we can get our top choices on the market, but I think our expiring contracts can bring back quite a bit and the time is right to make a major deal. However, I will concede that it might be a better idea to run it back, see how things are going in February, and if the market is even better at that point, to make the deal then. Time will tell.
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unfortunately
how valuable are these expiring contracts in relation to next seasons expected free agent market ? if it is high we probably gotta move
Keep the Big 4, Green and West
Use the remaining players for trades (check my most recent post)
by Celtics own the refs on May 13, 2011 6:28 AM EDT reply actions
run it back! keep the core and get reid of davis and rebuild the bench.
overhaul the team when garnett and ray ray retires there might be a possibility we cud get dweight howard in 2012. I thnk jeff green and delonte west shud stay on this team they are talented and jeff green shows a lot of potential for this team.
run it back....
one more years but hopefully tweak the starting line up to add more athleticism and strengthen the bench if possible. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to blow it up a year early IMO. Wait until 2012 when Ainge will have all that cap space.
Can I vote for all three options?
Retool a bit, run it back, and be ready to blow it up any time as the season progresses.
What we need for this strategy to succeed is flexibility, which means at best several Draft Picks for 2012 and beyond.
I'm that way too.
I’m tired of having a power forward (Davis) who can’t get above the rim, of the team worrying about how many shots Allen is or isn’t getting, of Rondo having to run on breaks by his lonesome (except for Green), of the brittleness of West, and of Pierce slowing everything down for isolation plays.
Yet at the same time, I think there’s one more realistic title shot left in them – if Shaq can be healthy for the playoffs (even if he takes off the entire regular season). I keep wondering if the Celts can cobble up enough changes to made do with what we have (except for Davis).
Run it back
I only watched the final game last night (I live in the UK and pesky work always gets in the way).
My 2 pence is:
First 3 games – blow outs for the home team, holding serve.
Game 4 & 5 – big 3 have to put in huge effort to try and get ahead of MIA but the legs go in the last 5 mins (of both games).
Throughout the playoffs we heard the same thing “if Rondo plays well the Celtics win” – in the end we had to produce offensivley without our orchestrator, we gave it a good go but came up short against a super star team.
Just like last years finals, I firmly believe an injury to one of our starters scupred our plans.
by Derekg49 on May 13, 2011 7:19 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec this, absolutely right.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Bring Back Big Al?
Just throwing it out there. Utah is in sell mode.
"Celtics bring order and structure to a chaotic world"
I’m not a fan of his inability/unwillingness to defend, but I’m willing to try to teach him in exchange for his scoring on the block.
It's inability, not unwillingness
At this point, he is what he is.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
Love Big Al's post up game
but he is a hapless defender and it’s too late to remedy the situation
by McHaleinthepost on May 15, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Keep Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Green and West
We’re gonna have to pick up a DEFENSIVE minded center
by farias on May 13, 2011 7:36 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
First call you make is to Chandler, no matter what happens in Dallas this year.
You offer him every dollar you have and hope for the best.
It’s unlikely though, if Dallas is a contender this year, what’s the draw to come to Boston, are they anymore likely than Dallas to be in the finals next year? Eh, I’m not sure I can make that argument, both teams are clearly on their last legs, and at best can be considered “Contenders but probably at longer odds.”
I’m not sure why Marc Gasol wasn’t mentioned there though, the Grizz still haven’t inked him yet. He only made just over 3mil last year, and made strides this year. They just inked Z-Bo to a huge extension, and unless they find a trade for Mayo, they don’t exactly have tons of cash to throw around. You throw every dollar of the MLE at him, and offer a 4 year, 6.5mil per contract… anything’s possible.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Garbage in, garbage out
It is as simple as that. Not saying our current is garbage but these Input by our core could not produce the Output we’d hoped for. If you keep the core 4, you would have exactly the same output next season, even worse output because of aging. Although there were some close games, this Heat series overall was not even close (4-1). From this point on, Heat can only improve, Celtics is going downhill.
A twist to the minimum input produced by the bench is simply not enough to impact the equation. Therefore, a change to the core is inevitable for a significant change in outcome. Simple algebra.
Of course, a change always has a chance to be for the worse but no change certainly gets you no where.
Dont agree
“This Heat series overall was not even close (4-1)” is to simplistic. The last two games we lead going into the last 6 mins but lost it as our starters had to over compensate for our all-star PG playing with one arm. A fit Rondo and I have no doubt we would close those games out and be a home win away from ECFs.
I agree we should change but it should be an evolution – less mins from the big 3 but I dont think we were that far away in the end.
You have a good point
That is the weakest point of my argument, Rondo not at full capacity. But looking back at our last regular season game against the heat, the first two games of the Heat series, as well as some important games last season against good teams, Rondo still had trouble creating for this team. As long as he is inconsistent in mid range J and FT, he’d be as likely to have a good game as a bad game, especially in crunch time.
So say Rondo didn’t hurt his elbow in game 3, and just assume he’d just have good games 50% of the time for the rest of the series, and we’d win 1 and lose 1, we’d still have lost by game 7. Of course the numbers are arbitrary given his inconsistency, the point is his bad elbow alone may not impact the outcome as much as you’d think.
That's partially true.
But so much of the runs that lost both of the last two games were due to turnovers.
So regardless of whether or not you are right, in that even if Rondo was on the floor, the Heat would lay off him and pack it in, making it difficult for him to create if he wasn’t hitting the jump shot, he still would have had an effect. For the very simple fact that a very tired Paul Pierce, or Delonte West (who really isn’t a natural PG, although decent in the position, but has been injured all year and not really 100% checked in with the team all the time) would not be handling the ball.
The long pass on the break Paul couldn’t complete to Green? Doesn’t happen when Rondo’s pushing the break. The entry pass Delonte whiffed completely out of bounds? Doesn’t happen if Rondo is handling the ball. All of these turnovers were momentum swinging, back breaking plays. Give the credit Heat for converting those turnovers into point (even if they were awful shots from James that went in) but realize that if Rondo is out there, they probably don’t even get the opportunities to hit bad shots, for the simple fact that Rondo probably doesn’t commit those turnovers.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Good observation
I agree those turnovers were huge. But how many points Rondo would’ve saved us and on the flip side how many he would’ve cost us by playing his brand of passing, surrounded by some of the league’s best lane interceptors of the Heat? We could never find out for sure. Celtics is still turnover-prone even with Rondo healthy.
Which school of thought, Break up/Re-tool or Run it Back? It all comes down to how you view the series: If you think we were not that far to beating the Heat, I guess keeping the core makes sense. To others like me, we have some distance to cover, therefore something must done about the core inputs.
They were 16 minutes away from winning both games.
Finish the last 8 minutes of both games the way you played for the first 40, and right now we’d be talking about Game 6 in Boston on Sunday, rather than off season moves.
I’d say they were pretty close.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Run it back.... but....
The only way we can get a better team with the same core is by making some of the big 3 come off the bench… And getting young and healthy bigs this time around… And by golly retain that lineup for the rest of the season :P
Sorry
We all knew the big-3 Cs had a window, and the window just slammed shut. It’s over.
Get ready for a return to 2003-2007.
Rudy Gay the Dunking Beasts
Both Jeff Green and Rudy Gay can throw down monster jams over shot blockers. But unlike Green, Gay always plays with ultra aggressiveness and can really create off the dribble and can also pull up fade away.
If we get him and both Gay and Green(when aggressive) are on their game, the rim won’t be straight after a game. I’ll go get tickets for every C’s games even if we don’t make the playoff. The veterans made the game boring especially when they don’t win anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OcSgAn0DaU
If I can throw it down like that and make 16+ mil a year, call me happy call me gay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OcSgAn0DaU
If I can throw it down like that, call me happy call me gay
I just hate him, and he doesn't have the qualities of a Celtic
Celtic-type players are like:
Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed Wallace, Jeff Foster, Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard
You gotta be bad, tough and dirty
by Celtics own the refs on May 13, 2011 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
not necessarily dirty
hopefully we could get Prince
The way is see it, there's more than one way to win.
gie+Rondo4MVP
Is he bad and tough? You bet!
He does this all the time, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay2-0QMt_tU
I’d say take a shit on your head and scream right in your face is pretty BAD. You know he is TOUGH when he powers through defenders with reckless abandon without regard for himself.
DIRTY? That I don’t know. But why should that be a quality the Celtics need?
The video quality isn't good but
He is hanging on the rim screaming with a facial at Yi
So maybe we should just merge with the '04 Pistons,
have Larry swap us Baby for Jeff Foster and wait on Dwight?
Gay stinks
Losing him was the best thing that ever happened to the Grizz.
Plus he’s overpaid.
Orlando Woolridge 2.0.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
either blow it up or retool
we cant win with the same team so run it back wont work but if we could add a young aggresive center like Deandre Jordan then i think that would be a nice upgrade at center. idk if anyone can recall but he put in work against the celtics at the end of the season. also i think samual delembert wouldbe a nice backup center for Jordan, an if we could snag them both then that would be great.But if we cant add a key center then i say blow it up while we can make trades with are talent before they are another yr older.
by yngbamm on May 13, 2011 8:22 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think it's very fluid....
We don’t know if ownership will want Ainge to keep the Old 3 here one last year. We don’t know who will be available in the summer of 2012 via free agency. I’m not buying the Dwight Howard scenario. Ainge may get an offer for KG’s expiring contract, maybe not. If he does, would there be enough enticement coming our way for Danny to bite? Will whatever is made available to Ainge via trade top what might be available in free agency in 2012? If we roll back, best case scenario is the San Antonio Spurs most likely. If we want to compete for a title next year we have to make a significant transaction. Most likely KG being moved. If Danny moves KG then he is punting on free agency in 2012.
BLOW IT UP!!!
You guys are in denial and teams that continue to hold on to their old cores and don’t blow up their team when the formula isn’t working, don’t stay competitive. 76ers, Knicks, Heat, Hawks , Chicago, even Orlando will be even better next year…..
I’d be fine with keeping pierce, but if you keep all four of these guys, this team will not be able to compete at a high level and will probably end up being a 6th seed in the playoffs exiting in the first round.
Does anyone think that Rondo will actually work on his game in the off season to level of guys like D Rose and Westbrook? It’s amazing how he went from being talked about as one of the best point guards in the league at the beginning of the season and now he is clearly a Tier 2 point guard (D Rose, Westbrook, D Will, CP3, Parker, etc.) – - TRADE RONDO NOW, BEFORE THE TEAM DETERIORATES AND PEOPLE FIGURE OUT HE’S REALLY NOT THAT GOOD….
By the way, Did anyone notice that Ainge said something about “maybe pierce coming off the bench” am I overanalyzing or is he implying that Ray Allen and Garnett on the trading block.. if they are … GOOD!
The bottom line is this, the Celtics need to converge towards a championship team and lineup.. if we continue to be in denial and dont’ make drastic changes we’ll be waiting another 21 years for a championship run, period.
by Stormshadow2011 on May 13, 2011 8:30 AM EDT reply actions
You've clearly lost touch with reality.
If Rondo wasn’t hurt, this team would still be playing right now.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
+1
Myself and Sizzlack seem to be on the same page.
Everyone is focusing on the age of the big 3, not the fact our key player to make it all work was playing with one arm.
Question to you all – we get rid of PP, Ray and KG – who exactly do we get in who is going to be better than them either in the short or medium term?
+1
I was watching an interview after game 5 and the person said without Rondo they had to find their own shots and the big 3 aren’t comfortable with doing it especially at their age and the fact that Rondo did it for so long. As much as people want to say the Celtics had a chance, honestly the didn’t. They weren’t gonna beat the heat with a one armed point guard, injured centers (Shaq and JO) and most of all a hugely inconsistent bench. The big 3 were tired at the end because no one not named Delonte and at time Jeff stepped up on the bench to get them enough rest. They looked like 2010 finals game 7 all over again except no healthy Rondo.
Ainge will make every effort to get Howard...
Allen and Pierce were the bait in luring KG here….this time Rondo will be the main attraction.
Ainge knows that big guys like little guys who feed them the ball.
He`ll try to sell the fact that Rondo is totally unselfish, is a young veteran, and is gutsy as hell as he displayed with his elbow injury.
Howard…Rondo…Pierce….trade the Clipper pick for some rebounding help….trade the expiring contracts of KG, Allen.
Finally, Danny will also ask Howard to think hard about life as a Laker. Does he really want to battle Kobe to be “The Man” there? To constantly deal with the “drama” Kobe and his wife create? He can ask him to talk to Gasol and Karl Malone how fun that is!
Rondo and Howard would be incredible.
Although the teams FT % would be abysmal.
But those two in the open court would be unstoppable. Howard would be putting on a dunk show with all the alley oops Rondo would toss up. The Rondo/Howard pick and roll would be a machine, when those two crash the hoop, with Rondo’s ability to find a way to get the ball through space in the paint, and Howards ability to finish, it’d be ridiculous.
I just don’t think the Celtics have the assets to pull off the trade, and Orlando isn’t going to want to deal unless they get something out of it. Meaning you’d have to take on one of their poisonous contract, much is I want Howard, I would never take on Gilbert Arenas to make it happen.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Good point...
Both on how Rondo maybe enticing Howard to come to Boston and how Kobe may negatively effect his a decision to go to LA.
Plus, LA now has a "very uncertain" head coaching situation...
Ainge will give it his best shot…trying hard to make people forget about the Perkins trade!
As he ages, and feels frustrated as his skills decline….Kobe will become even more unbearable. Kobe is always creating tension with some front-court teammate…Shaq, Malone, Gasol, Bynum
Good point again...
about how LA’s uncertain coaching situation may play a role on Howards decision.
We must also keep in mind the positive influence Doc Rivers will have if he signs a multi year deal to entice Howard to come play for the C’s,
Because I am sure no coach LA chooses will be as a good a players coach as Doc is which may help lure Howard to Boston.
Also...
I am so sick of hearing all the Howard to LA rumors and spin in the media especially from ESPN recently…. as if Howard should and is destined to only play for the Lakers.
LA has had over the past 40 years some of the best centers during those eras play for them in Wilt, Jabbar and Shaq and I hate how the media again is making it sound inevitable that Howard (one of the best centers currently in the NBA) must and will become a Laker.
The media acts as if its a NBA rule or right that LA must have at least one of the best great centers of a era on there team at all times.
They also make it sound as if only LA would be the right fit for Howard when they know Howard could fit in just as nicely if he played for the Boston Celtics for the reasons we mention above among others.
The Laker Parade feels entitled to everything,
including the 3peat this year – doesn’t always work out, does it?
Howard’s a better fit with Boston.
Why is the CelticsBlog icon a clover and not a shamrock?
by Celts_Fan_LA on May 13, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
But Boston doesn't have the assets to make the trade.
LA does.
Boston has nothing but expiring deals to offer Orlando. LA, if willing to part with Bynum, has a compelling package in LO and Bynum, if Otis Smith could talk them into taking one of the albatross contracts he saddled himself with in Turkoglu or Arenas, it would be a dream scenario for him.
LA may not be the best fit, but they definitely have the best trade package out there.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
it would take another team for us to get howard
green, clippers 1st rounder next season, BBD sign and trade, is a start but not enough.
thats why i say it’s unlikely the C’s get howard unless he becomes a FA and decides he wants to play here after KG and rays deals come off the books.
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 13, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
+1.
Signing Howard via free agency “if” the Magic do not trade Howard may be the best way of the C’s landing Howard in comparison to trading for him.
Though I assume Orlando will probably not want to risk losing Howard and getting nothing in return and will probably seek to sign him or trade him before the end of the season 2012 season, it is a possibility that if no contract deal his reached between Howard and Orlando and Orlando does not trade him by the end of the 2012 season and Howard becomes a free agent, the C’s will have a shot to acquire him at that time, especially since they will have enough cap space to make a run at him.
With the only contracts on the books for 2013 being Rondo and Paul and Garnetts, Allens, Shaq’s, J.O.’s and Bradley contracts all coming off the books, it will open up something like over $35 million to help sign Howard.
Maybe Danny setting up all these contracts to come off the books after the 2012 season is no coincidence and he did just that for the very reason of hoping to get a shot of signing Howard via free agency.
We can only wait and see what happens and hope for the best case scenario.
There's no chance that happens.
One of two things happens with Howard:
1) He signs an extension in Orlando, or takes his player option, and Smith trades him.
2) He doesn’t sign an extension in Orlando, and enters FA this year.
Now if he really wanted to play for LA (Or Boston for that matter) or any other current contender, he’d have to sign his extension and force a trade out of Orlando. If that happens things will get very, very ugly. If Howard says where he wants to play, it removes all of Smith’s leverage, and no other team will want to deal with him since they know Howard wont stay and play on their team. LA would be able to dictate what they would give up for him.
If he doesn’t sign the extension, he almost guarantee will end up in New Jersey. Their the only team with the cap space to sign him that actually makes sense. With Dwill there already, an owner who is willing to spend, and some solid role players already signed, it’s the only place that has the money to sign him and makes sense for him to go.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
I think we can not say there is no chance,
of Howard entering free agency or the C’s signing him.
It might be a small chance, but it can not be fully ruled out.
If he does enter free agency in 2012, with the C’s only having Pierce and Rondo on the books they will be below the cap enough to make a run at Howard (especially if Ainge trades Paul away at that time also) also like other teams will who have $$4 freed up.
Also who knows…Howard may just not want to go to LA to share the spotlight and headaches of coexisting with Kobe , or go to a organization with no history or prestige like the Nets.
It may just be Howard wants to play with a passer like Rondo, a coach like Doc and a storied franchise organization like the Boston Celtics.
At least lets hope thats how he feels ..lol.
like our chance
but we should keep Pierce too… with him out Howard wouldn’t come to boston, thats for sure.. I would hate loosing K.G. and Allen but with Howard, Rondo will continue to be an allstar point guard. The combination is just awesome and would be the best in the league, if there wasn’t the free throw issue of both… Green on the other side is also a great fit to both of them but Pierce is the leader and should it be his whole career.
Heck even LA fans would like Doc as a coach. They said they would love Doc because they feel he can help some of the players more specifically Shannon as of now. They feel he's a great coach and would like either a coach like him or Doc.
I think it also has to do with his relationship with the players that draws them too. I truly think Doc can lure players in Boston.
+1
It will be tough, but knowing Danny he no doubt will try to do so.
Lets keep in mind, we thought Ainge would never be able to get Ray and KG on board back in 08, but he did, so maybe, just maybe he has something up his sleeve to make Howard a Celtic.
That we can agree on.
But it has to be a sign and trade.
And do you really think Orlando is going to facilitate a trade to Boston for nothing but draft picks and expiring deals? Come on…
They might do it but only if the team taking Dwight is willing to take on one of their albatross contracts in Turkoglu or Arenas, and then add draft picks. So you have to ask yourself, is getting Dwight so important that you’d be willing to trade KG, and saddle yourself with Arenas? No, Danny would have to be an idiot to do that.
So ya, Danny will try, but the chances of it happening are about as good as good as me scoring a date with Mila Kunis. Ya I could ask, but it’s going to happen.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Unfortunately...
Orlando would rather deal with a western conference team; Having Dwight come and play against Orlando once a year v.s. multiple times and potential playoff series has to factor into the equation.
If they're resigned to have to trade him, or get nothing.
I’m not sure they really care at that point.
They wan’t the best deal, end of story. I don’t think anyone in Orlando, should they have to trade Dwight would be operating under some illusion that they’d still be title contenders. You’re looking at a long rebuild there, Dwight was that team, he was the only reason that team could even make the playoffs, and he wasn’t enough to win when they got there. But they have literally nothing else, but bad contracts on old and injured players, and a severely over-rated PG.
If they can get a team to want Dwight so badly that they’re willing to give up draft picks, and take on some of Orlando’s awful contracts in Turkoglu and Arenas, they’d jump at it. Really, what choice do they have?
LA, if willing to trade Bynum and Odom, really would have the best deal for them overall though, I’m sorry to say.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
I agree
Kobe is talented and has 5 rings, but would Dwight really want to play on a team where the player is in the end of th road, but would be in denial about it. Kobe with everything wrong from finger to knee still wants to be the guy with the most touches. Playing in LA with Kobe would mean he wouldn’t get as much touches as he should.
Also would you really play with a player that yells at his team like a dictator and belittles them. I think Pau just mentally gave up this season because he’s tired of Kobe talking to him like that. Yes it did cost them a championship, but I don’t think Pau had girlfriend issues I think he got tired of Kobe and just threw in the towel. And would you play with a player that when the team loses says, “I got mine I did I was supposed to do.” When the team loses it can never be Kobe’s fault even if he did have a bad game along with the team.
Kobe is talented, but at times is selfish, immature, and excuse me, but shows bitch like tendencies. The snitching on Shaq to get himself clear, the drama with Malone because his wife and him wanted to start mess, the whole thing with him and Ray when Ray was right about him the whole time, and the fact that he is thought to have ran Shaq out of LA along with Phil at first.
Dwight may love LA and may want to be a Laker because of proven championships, but is playing with an old senile basketball Kobe worth it? I have a hate love relationship with LeBron, but at least he doesn’t hide who he is. He’s straight forward with who he is and doesn’t hide it.
Also he looks like following Shaqs footsteps and every move he did. If he wants to follow Shaq’s footsteps just bypass all the other 100 million teams and just finish off in Boston.
I say make another title run using our big four
get some younger and athletic guys
The way is see it, there's more than one way to win.
gie+Rondo4MVP
The question on everyone's mind is what Danny Ainge is going to do with the roster going forward."
Firing Ainge should be the first order of business
The draft has me worried
because I feel the same about it this year as I have in years past. I’m hoping for a late round game changer to make us better, but deep down having Michael Smith based reality dread.
lets bridge next year. dump all assets, last minute trades, draft picks and build a dynasty for d howard/rondo. at all expense and w/e that takes. and that means trading kg and ray allen (perfect 6th men) to fleece next years desperate playoff team. do it danny!! w/irish pride hold your breath for a year ( ’ . ’ )
If Ainge blows it up or not all depends...
on how and how fast he wants to rebuild the C’s.
If he wants to rebuild the team quickly and do so by trading for other players and draft picks he will probably seek to trade the big 3 while they are still under contract this offseason or next year before the trade deadline.
If he wants to rebuild in a slower manner and do so by signing free agents, Ainge will probably let the big 3’s contracts expire and come off the books to free up a load of $ (KG and Ray in 2012 and Pierces in 2014) and try to rebuild the team by signing free agents in upcoming years.
Knowing Ainges past actions, who knows what his plans are or what he has up his sleeve, but it will be interesting to find out what they will eventually be.
Make another run, rebuild after next year
Celtics are still one of the best teams in the league, this means they always have a fighters chance of winning it all. After next season is up we can pursue dwight howard whatever free agents they are as everyone is coming off the books except pierce and rondo. If ray and kg resign small deals that could entice a guy like howard to come here, we could have the same team as now but with howard at center. Maybe Kg comes of the bench by then but he is still a beast.
To sweeten the equation I would love to in theory trade rondo plus some draft picks for Chris Paul (only if he signs a long term deal), I dont see the hornets getting better value for him. He may not be a top 4 point guard (paul, williams, westbrook, rose) but outside the top 4 one could easily argue he is the next best thing.
Blowing it up for the sake of blowing it up does nothing for us and if we blow it up a guy like KG could retire and his salary still stays ont the books i believe so we get nothing.
If we can get value, blow 'er up!
If not, tweak. But don’t take pennies on the dollar. Channel your inner Belichick.
I don’t want to re-build around Rondo, unless there’s no other choice. He is so idiosyncratic that it’s hard to make him the centerpiece. He needs to be on the floor with 4 shooters, for example.
I’d trade Pierce if possible, for value, too. With Roy damaged goods, Portland might be receptive to Batum & a re-signed Oden. Something like that. They’d compete right away.
So, while I wouldn’t blow it up for the sake of blowing it up, when people call about the Big Four, Danny should start listening and talking. For value: Kaboom!
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
+1
I agree, if Ainge seeks to trade the big 3 or 4, he must makes sure to get full value for them and decent players or picks in return.
Ainge must think like Red Auerbach, when wheeling and dealing and should try to get the best of any trade deal as Red often did when he made them.
If Ainge can try to copy Red and pull off something like the famous Red trade ( or steal ) of Parish and Mchale for Joe Barry Carroll that would be super…lol.
We Don't Know The Facts
1. Why were the “Big Three” unable to finish games? Was it fatique, injuries that we don’t know about, etc. Of course Rondo is an obvious answer. Another possible answer is that we never had a chance to gain chemistry after the trade deadline deals. Kristic and Green at a training camp would help fix this. Another possible answer is the Perk trade (which I hated, but believed it had to be done). Perk and KG were a unit with defensive chemistry and Perk may have helped to preserve KG’s energy. But we’ll never know. But if Perk was here Green would not be and then whatever your impression of Green we would not have a bench. Marquis Daniels’ injury was the key factor in all this.
2. We don’t know what the new CBA rules will be. So we can’t, at this time, go about talking about dumping Ray and KG for who? I want to keep Ray and KG and bring in some new athletic, energetic and some Big players to play with them around. In my opinion Green would be a better player if he had had ample time to play with Ray, Paul, KG and Rondo and Doc.
3. And I’m sure there are many more facts, but I don’t know them. In the current CBA it is easy to say you want to do something, but incredibly complicated to do that. I wondered why Harangody and Erdan were sent packing in that trade deadline stuff. I heard last nite that it was to make the numbers ($‘s) work out. I don’t know if this is right or not.
4. So with so much uncertainty I think we should not panic, keep the “Big Four” + Green and Kristic (if we can afford them) and let Danny do his job in filling in the gaps so we can start the season with the team we end with. Mid-season trades rarely work out, especially for a team like the Celtics where team play is the key. Stoyakovich helped Dallas, but could we have afforded him? I’d be surprised if he didn’t cross Danny’s mind.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn
Yep
I would have to agree with Mr. Ryan…They have a lot of retooling to do!
Prove we are wrong, Tom "Medicine Man" Quinn, NOT!
by Great Gatsby on May 13, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Rudy Gay
Rudy Gay could be the future of the Celtics and would be a great bet. Ainge needs to make that happen because I could only imagine what he could do with some leadership from Doc Rivers
He's overpaid with this 80million deal.
I think Ray should come off the bench next year, so I’m not opposed to bringing in a starting quality SG. Gay definitely is that, but not 80million worth of quality. It’s just not a good value contract.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Question for the blow it up supporters...
How many of you think the Bulls, with a one armed Rose, could get as close to winning in Miami as Boston did on Wednesday night?
I don't think we can win again with the Big 3 as the focal point of what we do.
Maybe TrueGreen is right and there is another reason for their inability to finish games. In my opinion, I think age is it. And next year they will be a year older, not younger.
I don’t think you can trade Pierce. At the end of the season, he was still our best scorer. I still think he can get us key buckets, but we need to get somebody else (or does Jeff Green improve dramatically with a camp and does Delonte stay healthy?). Ray and KG could get us some value.
Perhaps Ray, KG, and Kristic go to Orlando for Howard. Orlando gets a young center and some other value. It won’t be like when Orlando lost Shaq for nothing.
Everybody says Howard is LA bound. He may well want to be there because it is LA and the other distractions that go with it. But what, really, is there to be gained by him going to LA? Kobe will be 33 next year, and as long as he’s been in the league, in guard-years he’s getting old. Plus LA has no coach. And Derek Fisher is about done. Too much uncertainty in LA now, and definitely in a year or two. Plus throw in Kobe’s drama off the court (boy, the rumor about Kobe’s wife breaking up Gasol’s engagement is pretty wicked; no wonder LA tanked). Boston could be a good draw for Howard because of Rondo, Jeff Green, I believe, will be a viable scoring option next year, Delonte West, Avery Bradley and Von Wafer should be ready to contribute next year. Plus, if Danny can add another piece or two, if we get Howard, I think we can compete right away.
Plus, ship Davis. What in the hell happened to him? JO as a backup center? You need to fill in other pieces. I think Howard is attainable if a good salesman makes the right pitch. Then again, maybe it’s the green kool-aid or depression-driven desparation after being eliminated.
FA's
any link that shows whose gonna be a FAthis year
Stay with the Big 4
I still think the Perkins trade hurt this team. The bench really sux which affected the starters. I say retool the bench get rid of Big Baby. I’m still not so sure about Jeff Green, I’m hoping he change and grow some cojones. One big problem for the Cs, good centers don’t grow on trees and it’s becoming extinct in the NBA.
Hold big 4, go young with rest
I agree with Derek and Sizzlack, if Rondo wasn’t hurt, we’re back in Bosotn for game 5 and who knows what else. Aside from Shaq fizzling out, that was a good team. Shaughnessy and Ryan’s articles were predictable but not insightful – “Big 3 Redux, Whoa is Us”. Guess what….those two writers are stuck in time. Same themes over and over again. Washburn is better.
Danny has a stimulating challenge. I tend to want to hold onto the guys we have but I think Baby should move on if Doc doesn’t love his game. I would not bother with 30+ vets for another run. They break down. No to Battier, Crawford etc.
There is talent in D.West, Bradley, Wafer and Pavlovic. Green and Kristic with a summer and a camp will be contributers. Danny needs to sign Green and get a rebounding 5. JO is broken down, Shaq, hopefully leaves gracefully.
It’s never as good as it seems. But nor is it as bad as it seems.
My thoughts on DH12
There are only 3 scenarios for DH:
1. He signs an extension with Orlando
Very low probability because the Magic is going downhill since they robbed the C’s to go to the Finals, the moves by Otis Smith were bad. only chance for them to resign Howard is by going at least to the ECF next year, not happening, whatever trades they do to strenghten their roster, especially with SVG as a coach with his paint moves/3 point-shots binary strategy.
2. He walks away during the summer after declining the extension
Low probability again, because even though Otis Smith has made some bad decisions in the past, he is not THAT dumb and he knows that if Howard doesn’t sign an extension before february, it will be time to deal him away. The only way that scenario could actually happens is if Howard makes it clear that whatever team he is dealt to, he won’t sign an extension to be able to join a team with cap space in the following summer. I don’t see that happening, Howard will be as “not smart” as Melo was: he will prefer to blow half a roster out to be traded to a team that won’t be able to compete afterwards because half of its roster has been blown out.
3. Howard is traded before february to another team
High probability because Howard doesn’t want to stay in a middle-of-the-pack team for the best years of his career and Otis Smith doesn’t want to loose his FP for nothing. With a trade & sign, the Magic will get something in return for Howard and Howard won’t be seen as walking away as the Shaq did back in the days. Only Howard could prevent that scenario from happening by making it clear he doesn’t like the destination he is offered. I see that scenario happening because whatever the team Howard wants (Nets? Lakers?), he will have. Any GM in the league will blow his roster to have him, even if it means having Arenas alongside Dwight.
So, where does all that leave the C’s? Well, Boston is not in a great position to run after Howard. If my predictions are correct (scenario n°3), the Celtics won’t be able to go after him because they have nothing to offer against Howard that could lure the Magic. Otis Smith will want young players, draft picks and at least one or 2 big names, the C’s doesn’t have that kind of package to offer.
If the scenario n°2 happens, then the C’s will be in a great position to lure Howard. Doc Rivers + Rondo + Green + DA + Pierce + eventually Allen or KG on vet min, it could attract Howard. But the C’s will nonetheless have strong competition (against team with cap space and also without because of the S&T possibilities) because Boston is not the most attractive city in the NBA and because Howard seems to be leaning toward LA and if he is a FA, Otis Smith will give him any S&T he wants.
Conclusion: Howard in Boston = low probability. Maybe 25% chance? I don’t know, but Howard will play with the team he wants to play for and that’s it. He has the leverage because of his expiring contract and Otis Smith will have to bend to Howard’s will. If Howard wants to play in Boston, then he will, but I think that there are several teams in front of the C’s on this one (LA & NY especially).
Then some thoughts on the future DA strategy
I think DA will try to put the C’s in the best position possible to be a strong player on the 2012 FA market because it would be the fastest way toward rebuilding a contending team.
It means that he won’t trade neither KG’s nor Ray’s contracts because they are to valuable to clear the books and go after the big names in 2012. There is only one scenario in which he deals those contracts away: if he is offered some big names in exchange of them but we all know that this is not happening.
So I think we can wait for some tweaks, maybe one or two minor moves, but the Big 4 stays in Boston, waiting for the summer of 2012. DA will probably make it clear at one point or another to send a message to the FAs that could be interested in joining the C’s, especially DH.
Neither has the cap space to sign him.
And New York doesn’t have the assets to make that trade. Billups deal expires, but with the combined 40 million owe to Melo and Stat, plus the other contracts on the team (none of them large but they add up) it leave little for Howard to sign on. Oh and you still don’t have a PG then, even if he did for some reason decide to take half of what Melo and Stat make, which he wont.
LA, unfortunately really does make the most sense for Howard. They have everything he’d want, proud franchise, climate/locale, big market, fan base that would worship him like they did Shaq; and in the end we have to admit it, a Odom + Bynum package is far more appealing to Orlando than anything anyone else could put on the table.
But is Gasol + Howard + Kobe enough to win? I’m not sold on that really, that team would have literally nothing else, and I’m not exaggerating that at all. We saw how god awful that bench was in the Dallas series, outside of LO (who wasn’t great himself anyway) it was really a joke. Kobe is aging quickly and it’s only a matter of time before his abilities leave him, while his ego doesn’t (meaning “Hero” Kobe won’t go away, but the shots wont be going in any longer.) That scenario has the potential of being just as big of a waste of his prime years as it would if he stayed in Orlando.
In the end I think he stays in Orlando, picking up his option and playing one more year. Then waiting to see what the new NBA landscape looks like and deciding on his future. He could lose a little money going that route, but if his bigger picture concern is ending up in the best possible location for him to win, it’s the smart play.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
NY = Nets, sorry I wasn't clear
I do agree with you on the Knicks & Lakers analysis, but even though the Lakers wouldn’t have anything left, I think Gasol + DH + Kobe is terryfying. And the Lakers could also trade Gasol to have a more complete roster (and they still have Artest who isn’t great but who can fill the 3 spot or be traded).
An aging Kobe will be their limit, and because of him I think their franchise will be going downhill for the next 3 or 4 years, but do not overestimate Kobe’s ego. He knows his body is letting him down but he wants that 6th ring like MJ, he could let a young rising star play with him just to be able to say that he has as many ring as Michael.
About that option
I did not talk about it, it’s true that he has an option but I can’t see that happening. Howard won’t stand to play for a team like the Magic (= 1st round exit, or ECSF exit at best) knowing that he has no chance to win it all while the Heat and the Bulls fight for a spot in the Finals.
Nets are interesting.
The Mad Russian will definitely push hard for him. They have the cap space to sign him without needing a sign and trade,a nd a Deron Williams + Dwight Howard core is very very solid. It also makes Brook Lopez expendable, meaning you can package him in a trade to bring in some pieces to fill out that roster, which has been left pretty barren after the DWill trade, and you can resign Gadzuric cheap enough to back up Dwight.
Tons of teams out there would love to get their hands on a promising young center like Lopez, and would give up good assets for it at positions the Nets would be in need of, like an elite wing scorer to compliment the inside/out presence of Dwill and Howard.
Howard fits in kinda of perfect there to be honest, and it would make a lot of sense. But if he’s hell bent on going to LA, that wont matter.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
but how do they get him?
lopez is only $3m, and they dont have anything else. howard is $18m
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 13, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Nets aren't capped.
They have only 39 million committed next year. And if they don’t tender Wright a QO, that number drops to 35 million.
We don’t know what the new cap will be, but last year it was 57 million, so if they held steady. They’d have more than enough to sign Howard outright, then use their bird right’s on Humphries and Gadzuric to resign both. You then have a decent back up Center in Gadzuric inked, and some solid role players still under contract (Damion James, Jordan Farmar.)
They could then cash in on Lopez’s really high trade value (Really good player on a value contract who is a RFA in 2013) to try and upgrade on SG/SF.
I’ll tell ya, that would be a really good team.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
ok, i see what you're saying.
i meant as far as trade. i dont see the magic letting him walk for nothing, just dont. he has a contract offer on the table if he hasnt taken it but deadline, they trade him IMO.
howard, would likely have to sign an extension with that team in order for tehm to trade for him. if not, their GM is fired. howard walks from them and he wants to play for the nets, yes, thats a good team. however, if that happens do you trade lopez? id consider moving him to PF as he can hit the 20 footer and would be open with howard doubled. with williams and morrow that could be a solid unit. SF would be the real empty area and they could address that in the draft.
humphries could then become a valuable backup and this would be a tough playoff team
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 13, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Blow it up?
Not sure if I would blow up the team or the Big 3. KG, PP, RA are the core of this current generation in Celtics history. The Big 3 put back life into the Celtics, Eastern conference and the league.
They showed what unselfishness and team ball is about. The Celtics 2008-2011 did a lot especially winning a title in a single season turn around. Reminds of what the 2004-2008 Pistons of Billups, R. Wallace, B. Wallace, Prince and Hamilton did.
We all saw what happened to the Pistons after 2008; after their core was broken up that turned out be a mess. But the C’s Big 3 are in their mid-30’s and at some point the C’s will need to get younger, and rebuild around Rondo.
But trading one of the Big 3 I wouldn’t feel good about that. I rather they all retire than one of them being traded. I can’t imagine KG, PP, RA or RR wearing a different jersey.
by C'sFanfrmNy on May 13, 2011 12:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Run it back
Keep 13, 8. 13 just killed us with his and injury and the law. He’ll make up his lost for this season. 8, I having feeling he’s gonna do better this time. 8 was no where to be found cuz he came from starter to bench. Mix emotion for him. JO or kristc keep? All I want is dwight! If he wants to win rings, he’ll come play with us. I know he’s tired of playing for magics. There’s something going on, something good is bound to happen for us.
by CBleedsGreeN on May 13, 2011 1:12 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This team cannot...
play 80 games and get deep into the playoffs with KG, Pierce and Ray starting every game. Injuries killed all hope of the big 3 getting rest and Rondo had to play hurt after “the trade”. A perfect scenario would be to get some starters and have KG and Ray come off the bench as the much needed offensive and defensive spark this team needs. But let’s face it…who can we get that is even as good as the aging KG and Ray? I’m not sure what all the Rondo hate is about. I think he has improved his game during each offseason. Yes, he still has work but once again, unless you’re blowing up the whole team, who works better with this group of players than Rondo? The center position is obviously a big hole for this team—we need young, athletic and defender and that just about narrows it down to one or two choices out there. Rondo is our biggest draw to get a legitimate scoring and defending center. Without Rondo, who gets the ball down low?
slight retool, run back
ainge said today there may be a change in the starting lineup. he mentioned pierce maybe to the bench, that greens minutes will go up next season.
i dont agree with pierce to the bench as he is our leading scorer year in and out. i know green isnt a great shooter or a SG but if he could play it, it could make us better. helps cut down rays minutes, and gives rondo a fast break guy. green could also back up pierce who’s minutes will likely also be cut.
JO needs to come back IMO. he played great defense during the playoffs. if we could add a chandler or dalambert and move JO to the bench it makes the defense that much better.
shaq, i dont think has made up his mind yet but i think the ring will make him workout and try to get healthy for next season. if he does come back, his minutes will be low.
davis i believe we work out a sign and trade with another team and use the trade exception to add another player or two who fits ainges rebuild mold who can help us moving forward. help keep that window open. i like davis, but he’s to small, cant jump and wants to start, so good luck starting with your next team big guy. just hope docs man crush doesnt make us over pay to keep him
LLE, id love to get carl landry but i think he’ll get larger offers and roles offered to him. battier as another backup for pierce wouldnt be a bad idea even though he’s getting old too. just dont see to many young guys we can get. one i do like though, that would need to come through trade is terrence williams of the nets. id offer up a few picks for him.
lastly, bradley needs to find someone to help take his game up a few notches over the summer. if he can become a good player by next season, it’s a nice addition, make our defense better.
thats my take, all we can do know is wait and see what the CBA does and what ainge does……
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 13, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions
howard is not the answer
howard is an albatross. he skews the O in a restrictive way.
we need a healthy JO or similar and we need a younger PP, someone who can take it to the rim and finish.
PP is still an all-star. KG is still an all-star. RA is still a deadly shooter.
keep KG, PP, RA, JG, DW, JO.
i’m not sure about rondo. i love his grit. but his inability to shoot is a liability.
the team lost to the heat because james and wade played amazing ball, because the c’s needed 40 mins out of JO, and because the C’s lack a consistent low-post option and/or player who can take it strong to the hoop. PP should have taken more shoots and taken the ball to the hoop more regularly.
if we had a 28 yr old JO and a 30 yr old PP, we’d have won the series.
howard, rondo and green would be a beast of a team to beat.
there would be so many alley-oops from rondo to howard rondo might average 15 assist a game. green’s speed on would allow alot more fast breaks. howard draws alot of double teams, allowing rondo to drive and pick the poison, score or dish to the open man.
if pierce, ray, kg, jo, or a combo are still around it makes the team that much more deadly. id take howard in a second.
howard has also been working very hard on his post moves and FT shooting, both have improved this past season. adding a quality big mans coach to help him along would only improve that.
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 13, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
pardon me for saying this, but that’s sort of a teenage basketball fantasy scenario that has little to do with real basketball or with winning championships. it’s like building one of those super rock groups.
anyhow, if the c’s added howard, they would have to give up two of their big three. and it would change the whole style of celtics basketball. i love howard’s D, but i don’t think he’s a good enough passer in the post to set up cutters. also, with howard a double team in the post, there’s no room for a cutter. the middle will be clogged. that’s why the magic tried to play post/kick-out b-ball with howard and four spot-up shooters.
the heat killed us with backdoor cuts and passes, because their smaller line up keep our center (JO) out of the paint. or that’s what i saw.
Run It Back
I say keep your core players but at the same time get a new bench. That’s part of the reason why the C’s couldn’t win the series with Miami. Everytime the bench was on the floor, they was getting handled and the core players wasn’t getting enough rest, so by the time they get into the fourth quarter, the core players are practically running on fumes which leads to mistakes. Get new bench players however they want to get them (draft, FA, trade whatever). And I will put my two cents about Mr. Howard: IMO I LOVE for him to come to Boston rather than Lakers because if he does go there, it still be all about Kobe and only Kobe and I don’t see them clicking whatsoever. If he comes to Boston, he will have some of the best mentors that’s PLAYING and COACHING in the NBA, along with the possibilty of going back to playoffs of winning his FIRST ring. But, as long as he’s saying he’s wants to be with the Magic for his last year, this is all a “wait and see” process because if Orlando does decide to let him go, we really have no idea where his head’s at
"Either you deal with what is the reality or you can be sure that the reality is going to deal with you." - Alex Haley
by SBookerSaintsFan on May 13, 2011 4:15 PM EDT reply actions
Defense Defense Defense... Back to the Old Celtics
I do not think we need to trade any of the big three. What the team needs to do is get back to defense.
Guys like Arroyo, Green, Krstic, Murphy, Pav’s and Wafer are all too soft. Let the starters score and the bench hold the score until they return.
Would like to get a second look at guys like Stephane Lasme, DeShawn Sims, and Chris Johnson again (cheap and defensive minded)
Curtis Stinson, Marcus Cousin and Cedrick Jackson are also some cheap options to bring to camp.
Scorers cost money, so defensive minded players are a win-win
cousins signed a 3 year deal with houston
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 13, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's be real
The Celts played heroically, but what were their real chances once Rondo got injured? He certainly showed us all something by coming back, but they just weren’t the same after that. How many people would continue the refrain that they were too old to win if Rondo never returned at all which seemed likely when he went down?
I’ll never use injuries as an excuse to say the Celts would have won if Rondo never got injured, but in analyzing the way forward, one has to concede if the Celts had a healthy Rondo for Games 4 and 5 things could have been far different. It is not as simple as saying the reason they lost is the Big 3 are too old. A healthy Rondo can make a world of difference in the performance of those 3 and there is no reason to think they cant still be competitive with those 4 plus some additions.
It would have been a miracle to beat the Heat with a one-armed Rondo, so lets not get too reactionary about blowing it up. Besides, what realistic options do they have? If they can bring back the big 4, plus some reinforcements, they can compete for a championship. There are no guarantees of course, but this still represents the best possibility.
retool give it one more try ?
big three stays out green davis jermaine shaq is gonna retire murphy gone pavlovic. keepers kristic wafer bradley bring in dalembert or ne ne powe yeas i said it. carl landry and micheal redd . lets see what happens cause after 2012 you have to blow it up no matter what .
lohaus #54
As a Heat fan, I think you guys need to run it back...
Honestly, with a healthy Rondo, I think you guys would have beaten us in game 4 and game 5 would have been much closer (you may have won that as well). I think the window is open for another year, Look at the Spurs, Their window should have closed a few years ago and they had one of the top records this year. Windows sometimes close slower than people think they will and with the heart your big 3 have, I think that will be the case. Ainge will make some moves. You basically need more athletes and a big guy in the middle. Players will always be willing to go to Boston on a bit of a discount…
Bradley could help a lot if he takes a step over the summer. Look out for Donatas Montiejunas in the draft. I was at a small event at my college and Ainge came to speak to us, he specifically said how much he loved Donatas as a prospect (he is a lot like Dirk).
Also, this Pierce off the bench crap should not even be considered, IMO.
I have to throw a bit of a jab in here… If there is a MLE, Chandler will be too expensive (and probably wouldn’t leave the younger Mavs for Boston), and Dalembert will sign with the Heat (he has said he is very interested in Miami). Crawford would be a great fit if he is willing to take a pay cut, that may be the best option for the MLE…
In Pat we Trust
"Sorry if everyone thought we were going to go 82-0" - Dwyane Wade
"A nickel ain't worth a dime anymore." - Yogi Berra
Time to blow it up.
It’s almost like seeing the same girlfriend for much too long…we definitely need something fresh and new as a squad..
Tired of being all too familiar with all the little nuances of these same ol’ players.
Enough already. Familiarity breeds contempt after way too much time.
I’m tired of walking inside of Paul Pierce’s head, KG’s head, Ray Allen’s head,Big Baby’s head.
I’m startihng to feel like a headcase myself from being way too famliar with all of their idiosyncracies.
It’s time to get some new players to learn, to enjoy, to be mad at, to cheer for…and to have to put up with their weird individual behaviors.
(If I see Big Baby make another boneheaded play for us again, I think I will throw up).
Life goes on.
Is KG coming back?....
I know he spoke about retiring at one point last year; he is still one of the best big men in the league although the years and all those minutes are catching up. When he was on, he made the difference with that nice turnaround shot and his defense. If he does retire, I think the C’s should try to get D12—maybe they should just try anyway as long as they don’t have to give up Pierce or Rondo to get him. Pierce, Rondo, and D12 would be a good base to build around—Pierce is older, but I think he can still get his shot and to the rim for a while.
When a hurricane damaged my father's house, my brother rushed over with a gas grill, three coolers of beer, and an enormous Fuck-It Bucket - a plastic pail filled with jawbreakers and bite-size candy bars. ("When s*** brings you down, just say 'f*** it,' and eat yourself some motherf****** candy.")"
— David Sedaris
GET TO THE RIM HEAT! ATTACK THE PAINT!
I vote for retooling
I’d trade KG if anyone would take him, but I doubt anyone would give the Celtics anything of value in return. Pierce can’t be traded because he’s the face of the team and can still produce if he gets some younger, faster players beside him. That leaves Ray Allen. He still has value, as he showed he can still nail 3s, even in crucial moments in late game situations. I don’t know what would be considered a good return for Allen, but I wouldn’t be surprised if trade rumors about Ray came up again.
I’m hoping the future of the Celtics includes Pierce, Rondo, Green, and Dwight Howard.
addressing scoring
First and foremost, its scoring that needs to be addressed. This team can play defense with the best of them, but they cant create offense well enough on their own.
Get some young scorers and this team becomes much better.
FIRST: FIND MARKET OPTIONS
Before any trade speculation can be validated an analysis of the market must be made. Trades are more fickle than simple player value.
Team building stages, salary cap restrictions, and trade packages/team needs are more central to evaluating trade potential than simply looking at the raw talent being discussed.
One need look no further than the KG, Gasol, Williams, and Anrhony trades to understand that circumstance and leverage are principle in defining market value.
SECOND: IDENTIFY TRADE PARTNERS WHO FIT THE ABOVE CRITERIA
Assuming the target need zhas been identified(scoring) and that there is belief that the core can be augmented fir title contention, the options become more concise.
THIRD: POSSIBLE OPTIONS
So here are a couple possible scenarios that could work:
1. OJ Mayo – Memphis has a wealth of wing players and has money to commit to other players before him.
Gasol must be signed. Battier, Allen, and Young have been outstanding and Gay is on his way back. It would seem Mayo would be hard to keep for a number of reasons.
Memphis almost gave him away for nothing at the deadline, so it is very likely Boston could come up with a package that works.
Mayo may not be a super star, but he is a young, proven scorer who can create for himself and would be a very strong complement to Green at the 2 now or in the future. I’ve seen a lot of talk about who starts and who comesoff the bench. My belief is
that Allen and Pierce have the best high-end game amongsr this theoretical 4 man group, but the younger 2 are likely to be able to sustain a greater level of consistency with large minutes over a long season, while the older 2 are likely to sustain greater nightly play if asked to do it less often.
2. Chris Paul – This is the proverbial “big one”
Now, New Orleans is in a tough spot. Paul is in the last year of his deal and they must face the reality that if they cant re-sign him than they must get value for him.
As much as we all love Rondo, you’d be hard pressed to make a case that Rondo is the superior player.
However, Rondo is signed for 4 more years and is an elite PG who they would have time to build around.
If NO does decide to trade him, they’d be hard pressed to find a better value than Rondo with his well-priced deal.
Further, Boston could afford to take back Okafor in this exchang e if needs be. Boston could use a center with Okafor’s skill set and it would put NO in an even better position to start rebuilding.
Again, it depends on what NO is thinking, but they are clearly not a contender and have few assets available to them for adding to their core vs shuffling aroind core pieces.
Not a stretch to see Ray and Rondo being exchanged and Ray getting bought out quickly thereafter.
Paul, Mayo, and Green represent an excellent young group of scoring talent to bolster KG, Pierce, and Ray.
If NO was emenable to the extended deal with a Ray buyout, Boston would have just addressed their greatest team needs while providing relevant value to each of its trade partners.
Okafor/KG/Pierce/Ray/Paul/Green/Mayo/West is a fantastic champjonship core with a solid future and salary flexibility as the fduture progresses.
Again, these are just a few plausible scenarios based on the situations each team is in and what assets and needs each can fulfill for each other.
There are options that can be explored before total rebuild
by BillfromBoston on May 13, 2011 11:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
id be all for landing mayo.
nice young core to build around in rondo, mayo, green, bradley. need to get some quality bigs in this draft
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on May 14, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Big Men
The celtics need a talented, scoring big man to stay great. They have been in a unique situation where they have had the big three, so they havn’t needed a dynamic big man, but the time has come where they really need a big center and a nice power foward to back him up. If they could bring Al Jefferson back to Boston to play 4, that would be awesome. Another idea is Greg Oden. That sounds underwhelming at first, but if he was able to be signed for a reasonable price, and then played how he was supposed to, it would be a huge move. Besides all this, Dwight Howard would obviously be a dream, but Jefferson and Oden could be made to happen now.
Dwight
Besides all that if we could sign Dwight Howard, it would be incredible.
Greg Oden
Oh yeah Greg Oden, I bet Shaq can run farther than Greg Oden. lmfao! Greg Oden knees is as old as Patrick Ewing.
i love KG.
it would be great if he could switch to center and focus entirely on D, like a marcus camby type. he’s one of the most brilliant defenders i have ever seen.
he still has great offense, but he seems best when he feels like the third option (after PP and RA).
i’m sure he can play center as well as JO.
do you think KG could defend centers like DH and AB?
if the c’s move him to center, we just need a new PF who can defend and score in the paint.
I'm looking at the young energy and athleticism of the remaining teams.
And if there was “any” doubt about going back to the same ol’ drawing board, there can be no question left anymore.
One would have to be deaf, dumb, AND blind (and also believe in the Easter bunny & Santa Claus) to sit back and expect our same old formula would succeed next year against these incredibly athletic and hungry teams.
Blow it up….and Blow it up fast.
Get the best that you can for wornout KG, RA and PP (and JO) ..and move the hell on.
Santa Claus ain’t coming down no damn chimney any time soon.
Kg maybe but he is the heart behind this team. Ray made plays for us all year and can still hit the big shots we need. JO, yes if they can find a good player for him (because Jeff Green worked out so well)
by celticsfan56 on May 17, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Part of the problem down the stretch with execution was the fact that rondo was out. West- a good player- but had little expiercne with playing with the big 3 down the strecth in big situations. would that have made a difference? most likely not. I still think boston goes to game 7 but miami wins. I know the perkins trade hurt our team but i have a problem with no one talking about erden. He was a rookie, had gotten some starting time, and may havae devoloped into a good/great player. KG said that erden had potential to become one of the best players in the leauge (remember when he said that about rondo and no one belived him?). He gives us a young center to help rebuild. ya we got green and rondo ( mainly rondo) but shaq and jermaine arent getting any younger. so that still leaves boston without a center. Boston needs to get a young center to help rebuild down the years to come. On a side note, does anyone know on KG’s status? i thought i read somewhere that he was going to retire if there was a lockout.
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