Hollinger on Perkins
John Hollinger on ESPN.com has thrown down the gauntlet by saying Kendrick Perkins has to play a much more limited role for Oklahoma City to defeat Dallas in the Western Conference Finals.
His key stat is that the Thunder have had Perk on the court total of 82 minutes in the 3 games played in the Thunder-Mavs series. While Perk has been on the court, the Thunder have been outscored by a whopping 32 points. Conversely, when Perk has been on the bench for a total 62 minutes in the series, the Thunder have outscored the Mavs by 23.
The plus-minus stat is hard to ignore, and so are the slow starts by the Thunder, which he says coincidentally coincides with Perk being the wrong center for the Thunder against this particular Dallas team. More evidence of Perkins limited contribution is the fact that Perk has only 11 points and 14 rebounds in the three games.
The problem?
[Tyson] Chandler is running circles around him off the ball, constantly forcing him to be a half-step out of position ... Perkins' weaknesses are magnified because he plays with another non-scorer, Thabo Sefolosha.
Hollinger does admit that against the right opponent . . . like the Magic . . . Perk can be devastating as he puts his big body to use against other relatively slow-footed bigs.
Playing the "What If?" game, I'm pretty sure that Perk would not have been a factor against the Heat if he were still on the Celtics, or the Bulls for that matter, i.e., Noah is also too mobile for Perk to handle. But then again, neither were his de facto replacements: Jeff Green and Nenad Krstic. The value of this trade may not be realized for some time, as Perk's values is clearly going to be situational with whatever team he plays with. In the meantime, the Celtics need Green to improve and a healthy options at center available to keep the Ainge's "buyers remorse" at a manageable level.
Be respectful and keep it clean. Thanks.
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As has been said many times before, it takes a full year to rehab from the injury and surgery Perkins had. Even at full strength, Perk has strong points and weak points like any other player, good match ups and bad match ups. I am guessing that Perk’s lateral movement is not yet comfortable or fluid, which would naturally hinder him, especially on defense. Judging by his past, one could expect Perk to keep working on his rehab and keep improving. Understanding that, next year should be a better on for Perkins.
This year, Perk’s contribution seems to have been more in the area of “team” dynamics, judging by comments from his coach on how he has everyone “talking” on the floor on both offense and defense, and also talking during “player” meetings to build a cohesive team effort.
Perk once again would not have helped us against the heat. I can’t stand Hollinger but his stats are correct. Perk needs to develop more of a offensive game to compliment his defensive game.
by Blackberry33 on May 23, 2011 7:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Perk
is a better matchup for real centers not power forwards like Chandler-so what ? Every player has good and bad matchups-look at Bosh right now with Miami. He did nothing against us but is a major player against the Bulls.
nonsense
Chandler is 7’1" and has played center his entire career. Power forward? What? He’s as traditional a center as there is in this league, except that he can actually run and jump (but still can’t even shoot from 9 feet away). He’s much more like Dikembe Motumbo than KG or Bosh, and it’s not even close.
great post. Chandler is a special player. We could have gotten him from NO for a snickers bar
3 years ago. Danny has his issues but almost everyone else blew it too
Ironically
OKC came the closest to not blowing it then did. Trade was agreed to, but they were scared by Chandler’s physical. It should be OKC with Chandler starting the 5 vs. Dallas starting Haywood!!
Honestly
If Perkins is healthy, he’s fine for any team. This year, he just isn’t healthy.
If Nenad and Jeff Green get more practice time and more experience with our systems, they’ll be fine for us too.
I hear Shaq has sleep apnea
where you temorarily stop breathing during sleep due to low oxygen….(and other factors)
he had that all season
Is it Soup Yet?
A lot of us have sleep apnea. For most people, it's not particularly incapcitating - it's just annoying to others.
(So don’t lose any sleep over it.)
Perk would have helped against Miami
We needed more big bodies to clog the paint and stop Bron and Wade from getting to the rim. Sure, they both were hitting perimeter shots, which Perk wouldn’t have made a difference on, but, they would have had to make more if they weren’t getting as many easier baskets.
Dallas is a bad matchup at this point. He has limited mobility, further exacerbated by the injury recovery. Dallas doesn’t really have anyone that attacks like Wade/Bron/Rose. Dirk is much more of a midrange and perimeter player who occasionally drives to the hoop on upfakes. Problem for Perk there is, when he helps over to Dirk, who then dishes to Chandler, Perk is too slow to recover.
" Hell yeah I'm trying to gain an advantage out here. If you can't handle it, get off the court."- Kevin Garnett
"Stats are for losers."- Rahim Morris (Tampa Bay Buccaneers)
+1
If Dallas was a bad matchup, Miami would’ve been the hell of all matchups for Perk to be playing.
by thatswhatshesaid23 on May 23, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Perk is not a good shot-blocker.
At least when LeBron and Dwade are driving to the hoop. He may have issued a hard foul or two, but it would not have stopped them both from continuing to drive.
Although limited by age and injury, Jermaine O’Neal is a much better shot-blocker than Perk. And he actually made players think twice when driving. Not from a “I’m going to knock the snot out of you if you drive” way, but in a “you better alter your shot a little bit” way.
Jermaine wasn’t a huge upgrade over Perk, but he played well on defense and had a bit more offense than Perk too.
by No Nickname on May 23, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Ya, sucks he was playing with a fractured wrist.
Could have been a lot better than he was.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
There's good evidence for that.
The best victory of the Celtics season, in the view of many at the time, was when they beat the Miami Heat for the 3rd time on Feb. 13, with Perk playing 31 minutes at center (getting a +11), without Shaq, JO, or Semi Erden playing, and without Marquis Daniels playing, since he was injured by then. The Heat had won 8 in a row, so they were getting it together by then, and all of them played, except for Udonis Haslem; and Wade had his 3rd straight bad game against the Celtics. Rondo, having the use of 2 arms, had 10 rebounds along with 10 assists, and at one critical point of the game harassed Lebron James defensively with both of them. All of that with Paul Pierce going 0 for 10 in field goals. Also, in the playoffs JO would also be available at the 5 spot.
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=310213002
Rondo got hurt!
Perk being traded wouldn’t have mattered for this year’s title run. Btw, every center left in the playoffs would have been a bad matchup for Perk. Dwight Howard and Bynum are bye bye…..
Wade may have feared the consequences of breaking Rondo’s arm
after the play was dead, if Perk was there.
Yes because, Perk causing a melee and getting himself suspended for the rest of the series would have been a great help.
Great real man, Perk wouldn’t have done anything, he’s not an idiot.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
No, because there was no fear of a bell ringing hard foul
when Wade drove to the basket the next time (or two), or a hard pick like Garnett set on a Heat player in the 3rd Celtic/Heat game immediately after that player ruffed up Rondo. Perk didn’t worry about getting a technical for covering his teammates back, and other teams knew it. In the first Celtics/Phoenix game when Frye got in Garnett’s face, Gortat was immediately at the scene, and Perk who wasn’t nearby at first, was immediately in Gortat face. Those were the days.
How about Perk coming to Durant's rescue when he received that hard foul....
in the 4th quarter. Oh yeah, he was no where to be seen. As a matter of fact, he didn’t play the last 20:41 of the game.
If he can’t help slow down Dirk, how was he gonna help slow down LBJ AND Wade? And where are the bell ringing fouls this series? His team is down 3-1 so he should have already made a “statement”, no?
So the acquisition of Green helped slow down ....
LBJ and Wade?
Yes, actually.
LBJ at least, he didn’t guard Wade at all.
James just hit some ridiculous shots, and probably completely unsustainable scoring. The Celtics just weren’t able to stick around long enough to get to that “regression to the mean” game when the obscene shots James and Wade were hitting stopped falling.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Firstly, his not playing in the 4th quarter of that Thunder game is not relevant
to what I wrote, secondly Rondo is 6’1" and Durant is 6’11", a big difference. Furthermore, Wade made 6 of 17 field goals and turned the ball over 6 times in the third Celtic/Miami Heat game, in which Perk played 31 minutes and had a +11.
What were Perk's stats in the first two Miami games?
Call me crazy, but I’m thinking a healthy Rondo was probably a more important factor common to those early wins.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Perk was more suited for the C's overall play
and Nads and Green were more suited for the Thunder style of play. Hopefully, with a full training camp under everyone’s belt, the players should fit in better.
by thereallargejames on May 23, 2011 11:40 AM EDT reply actions
Miami registered some awful points-per-possession marks in games 3,4 and 5.
… and statistically the Celtic ‘D’ never missed a beat in the regular and post seasons. So the Perk trade is nothing more than a red herring for those in need of playing the blame game. With Miami playing small, not having TA hurt more because Perk rarely finished games and perimeter defense was so vital in the series. But equally important was the lack of consistent scoring. Against athletic teams like Miami you can’t rely on high picks and down screens because they close and trap so well. Wade was superb tracking Ray off those curls. So they needed more scoring off the dribble because as long as Rondo continues to brick from the field PP remains the only guy capable of getting his own shot.
"the lack of consistent scoring"
was definitely the major symptom.
That had multiple causes, but by far the most obvious one was the bending of Rondo’s arm in the wrong direction in Game 3 …
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Paulcowens
it came down to the fact that the Cs made Perk an offer that he rejected. They felt under the circumstances that they weren’t going to over their offer (Money and Duration) and went out and got something for Perk before it was too late. Given Perk’s injury history, the Cs were making a calculated risk in not upping their offer. I think the Cs would have preferred to have kept Perk at their price but when they saw that Perk would not accept the offer, they traded him. Can’t blame Perk or the Cs. Perk already had taken the hometown discount after his rookie deal. And, the Cs were not going to let Perk walk without getting some value back.
by thereallargejames on May 23, 2011 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
True
As much as this subject has been discussed, this is probably the #1 reason for the deal.
1. Get something for Perk before FA
2. Upgrade the Wing Position, due to the Daniels injury
3. Get a leg up on the building with Green and the pick
And still have a chance to win if the bigs recover from injury.
All pure speculations.
Bottomline, with the trade…it didn’t help us win the title.
Perk one of the most overrated big men in NBA
The guy is slow, never gets a rebound unless it comes directly to him, has mediocre low post moves.Yeah, he sets a good pick and knows how to foul. Wow…. He never played at end of games because he’s a poor player. Kristic was a huge disappointment. But Perk was always a disappointment.
Except for
the winning championships and stuff
by calc on May 24, 2011 7:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
championship
singular
Unless we are counting Atlantic Division and EC ‘championships’ now.
That said, Perk is, I think being underrated AND overrated by a lot of folks here. When healthy, he definitely has been one of the better defensive centers in the league. But he wasn’t irreplaceable and he wasn’t, imho, the reason that the Celtics lost to the Heat.
The Heat beat us playing small ball and getting off some ridiculous shots and recieving more than a little good ‘fortune’ in the form of Pierce’s ejection in Game 1 and Rondo’s injury. Perkins’ presence would not likely have made any difference with those things.
A lot of folks are beating up Perk for not playing well in this latest series by OKC against the Mavs. Well, the Mavs are a matchup problem for Perk because their bigs are constantly moving out to the perimeter and taking the game away from the post where Perk is such a strong defender. Perk was aquired to matchup against Gasol and Bynum who he is a better counter for. Dallas had to go and mess up OKC’s plan by beating LA.
Matchups are huge in the playoffs. Folks shouldn’t make sweeping judgements about a player based on just these few games against specific opponents. You have to look at the context.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
As much as I loved Perk on this team, the biggest loss for the C’s was his knowledge base, not his ability. Kristic & Green didn’t have enough practice or game time to learn Doc’s system. If you’re going to blame Danny for anything, blame him for not making the trade sooner.
The C’s would not have been able to resign Perk on the open market, unless they dumped one of the Big Three. Brandon Haywood, a guy of similar size and ability (but with less success) got 56 mil. What do you think Perk would have pulled in with even a handful of teams bidding for him?
Perk was routinely taken to school by any big man with a decent jumper. Guys like Andrew Bogut & Robin Lopez would have career nights against him.
I hope Perk goes on to have a successful career, but at the end of the day, he’ll be remembered as a crucial role player on a great Celtics team.
"Brandon Haywood
, a guy of similar size and ability (but with less success) got 56 mil."
this goes to tell you the worth of big men in this league
Not healthy
No, Perkins hasn’t been good but he’s also not even close to being fully healthy, if he ever will be. When healthy, Perk was always good at denying lobs. Even though he couldn’t jump, he was so damn long with good alertness, plus he kept a body on his man, that it was tough to throw a lob over him. He and Garnett formed I thought the best lob-denying tandem in the NBA. Chandler and Kidd have absolutely been torching him on lobs. He’s also been slow on rotations, slow to contest and just generally lethargic overall. He’s had a couple of good games but not been impressive for the most part. Still a better player than Davis though. The Celtics achilles heel was rebounding and Perkins would have helped them there without providing any less scoring than Davis gave.
LarryBird
The fact that Perk was injured and still turned down the Cs extension is not speculation.
by thereallargejames on May 23, 2011 12:54 PM EDT reply actions
Can't stand John Hollinger, Broussard and the entire ESPN NBA crew...
But he’s right about Perkins. He’s not mobile enough to compete with Chandler, Howard or Noah. Maybe it’s his knee or something else, but Perkins has not been looking good lately. His offensive game needs a lot of improvement which is strange because he’s been in the league since 2003.
Perk was still needed...
Perk is a bad matchup against Dallas because they don’t have a low post center, and Perk is playing with another non-scorer in Thabo.
But Perk’s team defense and rebounding would have been much appreciated against Miami (who killed us on the boards and in the paint), and would have been invaluable against the Bulls’ front line.
by SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on May 23, 2011 1:59 PM EDT reply actions
Perk would have helped, but.....
with an injured Rondo, Perk wasn’t going to bring Title #18 to Boston. The second Rondo’s elbow went the wrong way, Boston’s chances were done!
Well with Perk, we might not have ended up being the third seed.
Or maybe we could have had HCA in the Miami series.
How many games difference would Perk have made in the standings?
He was injured for the first couple of weeks after the trade, during which we actually were playing very well with Krstic.
If we don’t make the trade, and ride that out with CJ and BBD, do we really win those games? I doubt it. So if we don’t make the trade, do we lose all those games? And then, according to you, subsequently win more games later down the stretch after Perkins finally returned? Enough to make up the difference?
But we lost most of those games late in the year because our offense went in the toilet. And our offensive woes down the stretch, we know mainly to be because Rondo was so banged up. Would Perk’s presence have magically meant Rondo was not hurting?
Perkins was NOT a big contributor to our offense – and our defensive numbers were fine after the trade. How, exactly would he have helped us win more games?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
We can speculate all we want.
We may have won more games with Perk in fhe line up…or we might not have. It’s a 50-50 proposition. There’s no certainty. But let me ask you this….didn’t we lose all those games down the stretch and end up with the third seed and exiting early in the playoffs WITH THE TRADE? One thing is certain though, the trade didn’t produce a title for us right? Isn’t a trade in mid season suppose to enhance our chances to win the title?
by LarryBird33 on May 24, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
That's the idea.
But there as no such things are guarantees.
If GMs had a crystal ball and new exactly how everything was going to work out, then what would be the point?
They have their systems, their valuations, they rate the players, analyze the deals, and make their choice. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. If they’re right a lot, they win, if they’re wrong a lot, they get fired.
That’s the NBA.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
We played 8 games with NK & JG while Perk was still injured.
We went 6-2 in those games.
If we don’t make the trade, we probably lose most, if not ALL those games. We had NO HEALTHY CENTER (other than Chris Johnson, from the D-League). It cannot be understated just how wiped out our roster was at that point.
So, in the remaining 19 games from that point, Perk would have had to have helped us win +6 games more than we won with NK & company. Its true we went only 9-10 from the point that Perk returned to OKC’s lineup (Mar 14). Perk played in 17 games for OKC, who went 13-4 in that stretch.
However, our struggles during those 19 games largely were because our offense ground to a halt. In retrospect we know now that Rondo was really hurting and we know plain as day that our offense struggles when Rondo struggles.
It is HIGHLY doubtful that having Perk would have enabled us to go, say 15-4 down the stretch, given a hobbled Rondo. And THAT would have only been enough wins to end up with the exact same record.
To beat out the Heat, we might have needed to finish on a 17-2 run! With a hobbled Rondo.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
NK & JG weren't the difference makers in that 6-2 run. It was KG & Pierce..
The 6-2 record would have just been the same even if the trade wasn’t made. The teams we faced were the Clippers, Jazz, Suns, Warriors, Bucks and Sixers So we still would have that +6 games with or w/o the trade.
The next 19 games were against New Jersey, Indiana, Houston, New Orleans, New York, Memphis, Charlotte, Minnesota, San Antonio, Atlanta Detroit, Philadelphia, Chicago, Washington and Miami.
With Perk in the line up, we would have won at least 2 of the 3 losses to Washington, Indiana or Houston. So there’s your 2 game difference.
Please, don't make with revisionist history.
Krstic scored in double figures in all but one of those 8 games (‘only’ 9 pts in his first game). He played over 26 minutes in 6 of those games and 21 in the other two.
He was most DEFINITELY a key contributor to that stretch of games.
Do you really think we would have been able to make the same run with Chris Johnson at the 5 instead of Krstic? You can’t win in the NBA with a gaping hole at the 5 spot. Several of the teams in that stretch have significant big men that would have eaten CJ alive. Griffen, Bogut, Big Al.
Yes, KG & Pierce played well in that stretch. But they would be the first to tell you that you simply MUST field a whole team. Without the trade, we would NOT have had a whole team during that stretch.
Green was less of a factor, but even he played 17 minutes or more in all but one of those games (and well over 20 in most of them). He scored 21 in one of those games as our key offensive player in that win.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
CJ wouldn't have been playing major minutes....
In those games. BBD would have played majority at the 5. Even Garnett could have handled the names you mentioned. After all those people played the 4. They could have also defended Bogut as he was having a less than stellar play for most of the season. Those points Krstic scored could have been duplicated by BBD as he was playing superbly before the trade.
again, we forget
BBD had two good games during the stretch of 6 games right before the trade (Miami & GS). He was fine in those two games. In the other four, he shot 8 for 30 and was already starting his second half trend of taking and missing too many jumpers.
Further, in just the third game after the trade, BBD injured his knee while making an uncontested dunk in the Phoenix game. So WE DIDN"T EVEN HAVE BBD for FOUR of the 8 games we are talking about!
How, exactly, was BBD going to duplicate those points Krstic scored when he wasn’t even able to play?
After that injury, BBD was clearly a lesser player from that point on in the season, though some of his poor play started before that.
You can’t seriously believe what we could man the 4 and the 5 with just two people. You need to remember, we did not have ANY other bodies to play those spots beside KG & BBD (and CJ, after calling him up).
If we make no trade, you have to get 96 minutes of play from KG, BBD and CJ. No way you can do that without CJ playing “major minutes”. The Denver game is the case example.
Then just a couple of games later, you loose BBD. So now you are down to just KG & CJ to provide 96 minutes at the 4 & 5 for the GSW (Big Al), Mil (Bogut), LAC (Griffin) & PHI games.
Right.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
So are we playing the speculation game or the factual game?
Pierce and KG were playing tremendously during that stretch. The points Krstic scored would have been distributed among them including BBD. The points Krstic scored weren’t of isolations where we got to see his “tremendous one on one skills”. Those were the results of the team running plays. So those points could have been distributed among other players. The stretch the Cs had, they could handle them with KG at the 5 playing small ball.
The 4 of the 8 games you mentioned included the 2 losses on that 6-2 run. So we would have lost them anyways w/ or w/o BBD…w/ or w/o the trade. And the wins? Against Golden State and the Bucks who didn’t play Bogut. So both are still wins.. w/ or w/o BBD…w/ or w/o the trade. So after that 4 games, we had BBD back.
The Denver game was not an example. People were emotionally drained after the trade happened. In fact before the meltdown in the 4th, they could have won it with their line up. Big Al? The Jazz were already on a downward spiral and the trade of Deron, We still would have won that. Bogut? He didn’t even play the first time and the 2nd game he played, he was a non factor. Griffin & Philliy…we lost those anyways.
So basically it was still a 6-2 run even w/o the trade.
"Those were the results of the team running plays"
Exactly. Plays that required having a center. It is ludicrous to suggest that those points would have just magically appeared out of nowhere.
Yes, we did lose 2 of the 4 games BBD missed. We also won two.
You still keep glossing over the fact that we simply didn’t have the bodies to play 96 minutes across the 4 & the 5. We had two bodies. How many minutes, exactly, would you have given to each player to fill that out? Tell me how you would have done that without running KG into the ground (and still won those games).
Small ball? With whom? The injured Marquis? The injured (as it turned out) Nate? We had no healthy SF on the roster behind Pierce, either. So if you were going to slide Pierce over to the 4 (which is really small!), what’s the rest of the lineup? How many minutes did you plan on playing KG? How many minutes for Pierce?
This is silly. You are the one speculating that we could have still gone 6-2 in that stretch. Even if we could have (which I seriously doubt), we would have risked seriously grinding up and injuring our few remaining healthy players.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Plays run for a center..yes. Plays run for Krstic?
Those points magically appeared out of nowhere? Read my post again. Never said that. What I said was since those points came out of the team running plays. So those points could have been distributed among other players.
BBD could have played center, KG could have played center. You keep saying 96mins at the 4 & 5. We already had Troy Murphy at this time. There’s an extra though out of shape as of yet that time body for you..
Small ball? It was against Golden State and the Bucks w/o Bogut after all.
What is silly of course is passing as fact that Perk wouldn’t have helped us this season even if he wasn’t traded. Concluding Perk wouldn’t have mattered to the end result of the season. Now that’s silly because we didn’t witness that. We can speculate but we can never conclude.
BUT ONE THING YOU WON’T SEEM TO ADMIT IS….THE TRADE DIDN’T HELP US WIN THE TITLE THIS YEAR.
Silly right?
Yep.
Cause it didn’t help us lose it either.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Huh? Trades are now made to not let us lose a title?
Isn’t the objective of a trade…..help us win a title?
by LarryBird33 on May 26, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but if every trade ever made worked out 100% perfect, then no team would ever lose.
There’s no such thing as a guarantee. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t the right thing to do, and it also doesn’t mean you were better off not doing it.
If Rondo gets hurt, we lose, Perk or no Perk. The trade (or lack there of) wouldn’t have changed a thing.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Of course at the time of the trade there was no guarantee.
We are talking about now that the Cs were booted out in the 2nd round. Now we can conclude and factually say the trade didn’t help Boston win the title.
Yes Rondo did get hurt. But we can’t factually say that w/ Perk, it wouldn’t have changed a thing. Nobody can know that. In your opinion yes. But it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the opinion of others as well and they are wrong.
For Celtic fans, it didn't change a thing.
There was no title to be won with Rondo’s injury and BBD playing the way he did toward the end of the season which included the playoffs. Isn’t that what it’s all about?
Could they have been more competitive with Miami if they hadn’t traded their 5th best starter? Sure. No one doubts that there was that possibility. Was he worth 3 more wins vs. Miami? Nah! All he was (and still is) is a role player. And an injured one at that.
Now, if the C’s had gone down in 7 with Rondo playing well and BBD contributing as he has in the past, then we could have argued Perk’s presence would have been a difference maker. However, Rondo’s injury made that a moot point.
Throuhout the exchanges.....
No one was actually talking about the Miami series.
What?
In my reply to you above, I read this from your previous response (my words in parenthesis):
“We are talking about now that the Cs were booted out in the 2nd round (vs. Miami). Now we can conclude and factually say the trade didn’t help Boston win the title (because they lost to Miami).
Yes Rondo did get hurt (against Miami). But we can’t factually say that w/ Perk, it wouldn’t have changed a thing (in the Miami series).
At least, that’s how I interpreted it. : )
Actually, reading about all of the what ifs and rehashing all of Boston’s wins, losses, games they should have won, comebacks, injuries, etc. all revolve around the Celtics having a chance to have hca over the Heat and possibly finishing with a better seed. That’s why I brought up the series. Rondo got hurt against them and everything else that happened before that no longer mattered. The Celtics were toast!
You are correct.
And we can’t factually say it would have either.
So… I’m confused, what are we arguing about again?
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
I wouldn't say argue.
Because we can never say anything conclusively about something that we weren’t witnesses to or something that never happened I guess.
We can only express opinions and nobody is right or wrong.
Of course the end result of the season is irrefutable if the trade helped in securing a ring this year.
At face value, yes that is true.
It did not help us with a ring this year, can’t argue that. But, there are other factors you can’t deny either, like if Rondo doesn’t get hurt, would that have changed things?
I certainly believe so, and if they got past Miami, then who knows? So we can’t look to blame the trade, I know it’s the easy way out; but things just go so far beyond one trade. There are too many factors, the best thing to do is just say, it is what it is, and move on, focus on the future.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
You don't think with Perk in the line up....
We could have at the very least won 2 more games?
by LarryBird33 on May 24, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
With Rondo playing the way he was?
Nope, I don’t.
Now you can argue maybe Rondo doesn’t hit that slump with Perk around, if you buy into the whole “he played bad cause he missed Perk was depressed” which is garbage to me, but that’s just me.
Personally, I believe Rondo’s slump had more to do with the injuries than Perk, so whether or not Perk was there, Rondo would have played just as bad. Then you’d also have Perk being your only healthy Center for a stretch (no Krstic) and being very thin at the wing (no Green, and Wafer had the calf injury, Pavlovic would have been logging heavy minutes during the stretch run) so there are plenty of things that could have just as easily meant more losses for the Celtics.
But this is all speculation obviously, which is kind of the point to begin with, isn’t it?
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
Per above, nope.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
fantasy
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Reality?
Well reality…making the trade, we still got booted out in the second round winning just one game right?
Please see above.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I think some of Perks flaws didn’t show while he was here. We didn’t count on him scoring. If we needed scoring or at the end of a game in came BBD. BBD has the ability to draw charges and the fact that at the end of a game, things slow down – not as many fast breaks, less high risk manuevers (lobs) – he didn’t get killed with mismatches because at the end of game, teams go to their stars.
At OKC, Perk is looked on as a leader, but he has these flaws that were all right here because we had people who fit around him and covered them. Rondo and KG were able to make him productive offensively by feeding him close to the basket. But let’s be real, he a very poor offensive player. He’s unable to create his own shot, even has trouble finishing around the hoop (slow and has to gather himself) and he can’t pass out of a double team. I’m not trying to criticize him. He was a hard working and tough physical presence, which is what we needed.
I think things will work out for both – Perk and the Celts. Perk got a good deal, probably could have got more on the open market, but he’s with a good team with a chance to win in the future for his entire contract. The Celts got Green and the pick and that going forward is going to help up rebuild or reload.
I know, it’s always a losing season for us when we don’t hoist a banner, and we didn’t win the banner this year. Would we have won with Perk? Maybe, but not without Rondo. Could we have won with the team we had? Don’t know because Rondo was got hurt. But honestly, probably not, we just weren’t playng very well. We didn’t make the transition very well after the trade. Maybe if Shaq had come back healthy things would have worked. I don’t know. Lots of maybes. Now it’s time to flip the page to 2011-2012!
good post
especially the last paragraph.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
speculation....
Since there is so much speculation going on with both sides of the Perkins debate here is some more to chew on…
There is almost no chance Boston or AInge regrets this deal going forward because they/he got assets for a guy who was walking this off season anyways.
Oklahoma City may already be regretting this deal as far as their future out look goes because Perkins isn’t likely to play up to the deal he just signed and his warts are on display for the whole world to see in these playoffs. Sure he is injured but when exactly has he been 100% healthy over the past 5 seasons. His health situation is unlikely to get better going forward.
It all speculation anyways but this is how I am beginning to look at this deal going forward.
50-50 trade for the present
But a no-brainer for Ainge looking to the future. Well said.
by Jack Jemsek on May 24, 2011 5:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Rondo's Shooting
I think we all agree that if Ronod would have the ability to shoot that would open up the offense and make him nearly impossible to guard.
No one ever talks about how many times he is left open and he rarely shoots. I understand the injury, but he ever developed a jump shot that would open the door for a lot of other options.
Check his #s.
His shooting problems aren’t as glaring as people want to think. He’s actually very solid from 15-19 ft.
But his FT shooting needs to improve drastically, there’s no question about that, and there’s no reason he can’t become a good FT shooter.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
This^.
Rondo’s FG% from 16-23 ft is actually above average and that’s where he (smartly) takes most of his jump shots.
If Rondo has a weakness, it is pretty much the free throw line. And I agree, he CAN improve there. ’Can’t promise he will. But there is hope.
Jermaine is a good example of a player who sucked horribly from the line his first 3-4 years. And then turned it around to become a very good FT shooter.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
We wouldnt have gone down 4-1 with the Heat idf we had kept Perks.
The difference Perk would have made against the Heat is that with him, we would have been swept in 4 straight instead of going down 4-1. Thats the difference that guy would have made.
Haha.
I like what you did there. Had me going for a minute.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
The truth hurts
Hollinger is, of course, correct. You’re watching the beginning of the end of Perkins’ career in the NBA.
Four years, $36 million. Absolutely stupid money for Perkins.
The trade didn’t work out for the Celtics. But at least we’re not wearing that boat anchor of a contract around our necks.
Now, carry on with the “Perkins is Wilt Chamberlain” comments. Sorry to interrupt.
I think Perk's value to this team would have been higher than anywhere else.
So there’s an argument to be made there, given how well he fit the system and was willing to buy into his role. He knew all the plays, worked in perfect unison with Garnett, and was a major part of their defense.
However, you are right, Boston made him, and outside of it, we’re seeing first hand what will become of him in the long hall.
The trade hasn’t worked out the Celtics, yet. But it’s a new era for the Celtics, and Green will be a part of it, once out of the shadow of the big 3, only time will tell what kind of player he will become.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11
There is something to what you both are saying, but I think its too early to be certain.
Perk will almost certainly be stronger when more time has passed – as we have seen so many times, it takes about a full year after you come back from knee surgery to get your leg strength and flexibility back.
Also, the perception of Perk in these playoffs is hurt in an odd way by the failure of the Lakers. Perk matches up better as a post defender against post-up bigs like Bynum & Gasol. He is basically mismatched against Dallas (which has bigs who often play away from the basket, including a 7 ft Dirk chucking 3 pointers) so he looks worse in this series than he is overall.
And finally, don’t underestimate the value of a full training camp and simple time spent working together as a team. Perk should work better and better with his new team as they work together more.
All that predicated, of course, on his staying healthy.
I’m still a supporter of the trade, but I think its too early to tell if OKC has come out on the bad end of the stick.
There is still a very good chance that the trade will work out well for both sides. Or not.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Another Statitistical Perspective from Pelton
Pelton writes In Defense of Perk, and since he’s been the stats guy for this team, he should know what he’s talking about . . .
As it ends up, Perkins wasn’t the only one with horrible plus-minus numbers and ratings – Ibaka, Cook and Mohammed were all affected by the line-ups, and all did well with Westbrook-Harden-Durant-Collison in the line-up with them. Pelton subsequently wonders where the criticism for Ibaka is.
The answer is is easy – Ibaka doesn’t have a Boston fan base – that’s why.
On the contrary...
Ibaka doesn’t have the same criticism because there aren’t a slew of fans that believe he is anything more than what he is as a young player making $1.2 million this season.
Secondly, there are some that are defending Perkins as if he was a championship difference maker this season regardless of his injuries (also happens to be making $36 million over 4 years). Injury excuses or not, his play for OKC during their playoff run was disappointing to say the least.
Remember, Perk was supposed to be the “missing” piece for them this season at the trade deadline. At an average of $9 million per year, wouldn’t you expect more than 4.5 ppg and 6.0 rpg from him in the playoffs? I have no doubt that a healthy Perkins would have been a difference maker.
I do.
I think we drastically over value Perk based on the system he played in with us.
He and KG worked well together, they played defense on a string. Perk knew his role, he fit the line up well, knew all the plays, and things clicked better with him out there because it just came more naturally to them. I won’t argue that, but that doesn’t make Perk a good Basketball player, just a great role player. Doesn’t mean he can do it anywhere else.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
04 + 07 = 11

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