Community Rankings: 6th Best Celtic Ever
by Roy_Hobbs on Sep 19, 2011 12:36 PM EDT
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PrintBob Cousy won the clear majority of votes in the voting for 5th Best Celtic Of All-Time. From here on out, I'm doubtful that there are any choices that are so clear cut.
Today's poll pits two of the Celtics greatest big men of all-time: Dave Cowens vs. Kevin McHale. There's a lot of debate over who was the better Celtics big-man. On the one hand, Dave Cowens was absolutely dominant at his peak. He won a league MVP award, and he was a beast on the boards. He had eight straight seasons of at least 16.4 points and 13.9 rebounds, and he was also an excellent passer.
One the other hand, there's McHale, who was an absolute lock-down defender at the three front-court positions, and who may have the best offensive post moves of all-time. People sometimes forget what a great scorer McHale was; he averaged 26.1 games in one season, led the league in FG% twice, and once put up 56 points in a game. There's little doubt in my mind that Kevin McHale could have been the centerpiece on a championship team. While he was relatively weak on the boards, there's no shame in securing fewer rebounds than Robert Parish and Larry Bird.
I see this matchup as literally a coin-flip. I lean toward McHale, but these guys are neck-and-neck, and Cowens was recognized by his contemporaries as being the very best (or at least, most valuable) player in the game for a season, something that McHale cannot say.
Career milestones of today's contenders after the jump...
The tale of the tape (while with the Celtics):
Kevin McHale: 13 seasons, 3 titles, 7-time All-Star, 6-time All-Defense, 2-time Sixth Man of the Year, 1-time All-NBA
Dave Cowens: 10 seasons, 2 titles, NBA MVP, 7-time All-Star, 3-time All-Defense, 3-time All-NBA
Tommy Heinsohn: 9 seasons, 8 titles, 6-time All-Star, ROY, 4-time All-NBA, .Coach of the Year, 2 coaching titles
Kevin Garnett:4 seasons, 1 title, 4-time All-Star, DPOY, 1-time All-NBA, 3-time All-Defense
Robert Parish: 14 seasons, 3 titles, 9-time All-Star, 2-time All-NBA
Sam Jones: 12 seasons, 10 titles, 5-time All-Star, 3-time All-NBA
00 Robert Parish
3 Dennis Johnson
5 Kevin Garnett6 Bill Russell
10 JoJo White14 Bob Cousy
15 Tom Heinsohn
16 Tom Sanders17 John Havlicek
LOSCY Jim Loscutoff
18 Dave Cowens
19 Don Nelson
20 Ray Allen
21 Bill Sharman
22 Ed Macauley
23 Frank Ramsey
24 Sam Jones
25 KC Jones
31 Cedric Maxwell
32 Kevin McHale33 Larry Bird34 Paul Pierce
35 Reggie Lewis
I'm thinking of lobbying Jeff to increase this out to the top-25 or top-30 Celtics of all-time. What do you think?
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Roy
I’m good with a top 25 or 30 – but who else will you include in the voting?
Can I vote for Kedrick Brown?
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
Let's go top 33...
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
John Havlicek
Bob Cousy
Kevin McHale
Tommy Heinsohn
Paul Pierce
Dave Cowens
Sam Jones
Robert Parish
Bill Sharman
Dennis Johnson
JoJo White
Kevin Garnett
Cedric Maxwell
Reggie Lewis
K.C. Jones
Frank Ramsey
Ed Macauley
Satch Sanders
Tiny Archibald
Paul Silas
Danny Ainge
Don Nelson
Ray Allen
Bailey Howell
Antoine Walker
Don Chaney
Jim Loscutoff
Bill Walton
Rajon Rondo
Kendrick Perkins
Dino Radja
I mean, every rating of great Celtics has to have a place for Dino and Antoine to commemorate the pile of garbage that was the mid-nineties until 2007.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I like your rankings
Very close to mine. I’d drop PP down just below Cowens and, I’m sorry, but I just can’t have Antoine up above Perk (let alone Walton!). As entertaining of a character that he was, he’s gotta slide down there and keep Dino company.
I also have a LOT of personal sentiment that wants me to bump DJ further UP the list – but I realize that a lot of my DJ love is borne out of his greatness with the Sonics and isn’t truly part of his ‘Celtic’ legacy. So where you have him seems about right.
For folks who think some of us old farts are being unfairly hard on Paul – keep in mind that he still has several years in which to ADD to his Celtic legacy and legitimately climb up this list even in OUR old foggy minds and hearts. Saying we think Cousy, et al., were ‘greater’ doesn’t mean we don’t think PP is great. And how we rank them could definitely change by the time Pierce is finally done.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
man, Antoine had top 15 talent for this list
just never fulfilled it
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
have to go with Mchale
but tough choice between him and Cowens. Still irks me PP is ahead of them.
Cowens by a nose
The dude was also a taxi driver and that gets points for me.
by thereallargejames on Sep 19, 2011 2:32 PM EDT reply actions
Sam Jones should be higher on the list.
The Celts had a lot of great players, but some get overlooked.
Where would you slot him?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
no love for Tommy? He should have been #5 imo.
a great player, coach, broadcaster, and teacher!
the more I think about it, it is awfully hard putting Heinsohn below this spot
One can make arguments that he was not the individually dominant player that maybe Cowens and McHale were, but he was obviously still up there with the elites. But on TOP of that, you have to add in his impact to the Celtics as a Coach and broadcaster!
This vote is for the ‘Greatest Celtics’, right? Not just the ‘Greatest Individual Celtic Players’? Tommy’s contributions as a Celtic go way, way beyond his play on the court.
I have not made up my mind yet, but I kinda think that Tommy deserves equal consideration for this slot with Cowens and McHale. And in my mind Paul should have ended up right behind those three.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
actually
my intent was to rank everyone as players – though I’m not sure I made it 100% clear
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
"Best Celtic Ever"
Doesn’t say “Best Celtic Basketball Player Ever”.
Let’s don’t go changin’ da rules mid-course! LOL!
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Cowens Vs McHale
These are two very different types of players and really can’t be compared. It would be hard to rank one over the other. As a fan I usually pick out one player on the team that I like to single out and watch, even when he’s not directly involved in a play. I pick a player in each era. In the ’70’s it was definitely Dave Cowens. In the 80’s it was Bird without question, not McHale. In the present era I really haven’t been able to pick out one player.
What I can say is that we Celtic fans have had the privilege of seeing two great players play their entire careers for us. I might add that McHale may have been more skilled, but Cowens was definitely more committed. Both sacrificed their bodies for us.
"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn
I think McHale was the better Big, but:
I had to go with Dave Cowens here for my vote….Dave and Hondo should be very close to one another in the ranking, IMO.
I look at Dave Cowens as taking over the role of Celtics Big Man after Bill Russell, effectively bridging the cap from the 70’s to the 80’s for us.
SS & R Ultimate Draft 2011:
C - David "The Admiral" Robinson / Arvydas Sabonis
PF - Kevin "Big Ticket" Garnett / Dave Cowens
SF - Tracy McGrady
SG - Paul "The Truth" Pierce
PG - Bob "Hardwood Houdini" Cousy / Maurice "Mo" Cheeks
Close enough. ;-)
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
After the third best Celtic ever this theme became redundant and boring. I realize there is not much to write about but 4th, 5th, 6th best ever is bush league material.
Um, thanks for your constructive feedback...
You’re welcome to write a fanpost if you’ve got better material to offer. New ideas are always welcome.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Also, if 4th, 5th, 6th best are all "bush league material" despite being top tier Hall of Famers ...
… wait until we get to around #30. It’s going to be a long lockout.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
I'm leaning towards McHale.
Even if the stats don’t prove it, he was in my opinion the greatest power forward ever. A 2-way player, not only was he a superior defender….he had probably the best back to the basket moves which to this day is still unmatched.
In his prime, he could take on those considered the best at the 4 position like Duncan and Karl Malone.
I'l 2nd the McHale vote
Cowens may have won a league MVP and McHale didnt but I am not sure he didnt deserve it. If it hadn’t been for an injury during the 86 season I think McHale certainly could have been deserving of the MVP. Where did I recently read where a sports reporter said that in 86 Bird was the best player in the league and the 2nd best player on the Celtics? Keving was that good for most of that season!
I myself .......
after choosing Russel & Bird (in no order) Hondo, Mchale, Cousy in the previous top 5 positions, think Pierce is the Celtics 6th best player of all time.
But if a choice had to be made between Cowens and Mchale I would give the nod to Mchale since I think he was a better overall talented player then Cowens…which is saying alot since Cowens himself was a hell of a player also.
Cowens
Co-rookie of the year, league MVP, two titles, and one of the toughest centers in a decade where there were centers like Willis Reed and Kareem. That incredible hustle and toughness (backed down from no one) despite being horribly undersized, and the passing, rebounding and defense. He did so much and was the fire underneath those title teams. I loved McHale, and hate picking Cowens over him, but as a fellow redhead, lefty and FSU grad, my heart (and head) will always belong to Cowens. Got to interview him once; one of the few times I was nervous as a sportswriter. Sharing a beer with him at his old watering hold on Tennessee Street eased my nerves, though.
Cowens all the way.
Much more of an impact player.
Sam Jones is once again criminally underrated. The titles and all-Star games don’t tell the story.
Listen at what Russell has to say about Jones (and Havlicek). Jones = CLUTCH.
by xmuscular ghandix on Sep 20, 2011 12:20 AM EDT reply actions
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