Paul Pierce Rumors: Head Says "Hmmm," Heart Says NO!
by Jeff Clark on Jan 18, 2012 10:42 AM EST
in Boston Celtics Articles
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PrintWith a little time to sit back and carefully ponder these Paul Pierce rumors with an open mind, I think I can say objectively say...
Noooooooooooooo!!! Don't take my Captain away! Aaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh!!!
With that out of the way, let me try to explain.
Looking at the actual rumor, it is very important to point out a few things. For one thing, as of now, there is no indication that the Celtics are initiating conversations about Paul Pierce. Only that other contending teams are calling about his availability in the event that the Celtics "blow it up." That only makes logical sense.
Blakely: Ainge should resist temptation to trade stars
"If Danny (Ainge, Boston's president of basketball operations) decides to blow it up, why wouldn't you at least look into adding Paul Pierce?" one Western Conference front-office official said Tuesday evening. "You're telling me Paul Pierce couldn't help your team?"
One such team that comes to mind immediately would be the Chicago Bulls. Why wouldn't they want to add a proven scorer that knows Tom Thibbodeau's systems? He could add some scoring to a lineup that relies far too much on MVP Rose. Pierce has a couple of years left on his deal, but there are out clauses that could facilitate a buyout or retirement if it came to that. For now, once he gets into playing shape he could be a very valuable piece to any contender.
And thinking through this logically, I can even understand why Ainge might be tempted to listen to offers. He's said in the past that anyone is available for the right price. If you look at Pierce as an asset, you are not going to get a better return for him than you could in the next month. Better to trade a guy a half a year early than too late. He's one of very few trade assets that we have that could actually bring something worthwhile in return (draft picks for example).
With all that said... NO, NO, NO, a thousand times no!
I like to think of myself (perhaps with a hint of delusion) as a somewhat even keeled person. I am an unabashed optimist but I'll stand up for the rights of pessimists to voice their frustrations. I've mostly seen the method to Danny Ainge's madness and agreed with and supported a lot of his deals (and rumored deals).
However, I have no desire whatsoever about even pretending to be objective about this subject. This is my binky we're talking about. I waxed poetic this summer about feeling like I grew up with Paul Pierce and I would not recover quickly if he was ripped out of my team and plunked into another uniform.
We are talking about a guy that has been in Boston his whole career, survived a stabbing, lived through year after year of a rebuilding process, and finally grew up and became a Finals MVP, defeating Kobe and the Lakers in the process. That quick resume, as impressive as it sounds, doesn't even scratch the surface of what the man means to this team and to fans like you and me personally.
Side note: If the original reports about his signing back in 2010 were accurate, he does in fact have a no-trade clause. So any deal involving him would have to be approved by him.
Note Update: per @SherrodbCSN: "For those wondering, #Celtics Paul Pierce does NOT have a no-trade clause." (Now I'm confused)
So no, I would't endorse trading Paul Pierce. I don't care if we could get a decent draft pick for him. I don't care if we don't win another game all year. Maybe that makes me a bad GM, but I'm not employed by the Celtics, I'm just fanatically and emotionally tied to them. I root for the laundry (which by the way includes banners hanging from the rafters) but I also root for the men inside those jerseys.
This year, the Celtics advertising campaign slogan is "I'm a Celtic." I can't think of anyone in the last 20 years that embodies that spirit more than Paul Pierce. No way I'd endorse trading him away. My head sees why many of you would consider it. My heart will never, ever, ever agree.
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Trading Time?
I don’t believe you’ll see any trades of the Big 3 by March 15. Any interested teams would have to have enough interest in the player to compensate Ainge enough to offset the benefit to Danny of having the salary coming off the payroll after the season. The interested teams would have to swap a matching salary or salaries. That will be tough to do at Allen’s 10 million and KG’s 21 million. So the other team would have to value Ray or Kevin enough to send matching expiring salary and enough sweetener for Ainge to pull the trigger. Very doubtful. Pierce is a little different in that I think he can still have more impact than the other two. But again the benefit for Ainge would be in shedding the payroll obligation and I think it will be difficult to find a team willing to swap expiring contracts to match Pierce’s. Plus of the three I think Ainge would find it harder to deal Pierce as a life long Celtic. I do think Ainge would take that under consideration.
Dallas is the answer to this question...
Paul Pierce would be a major upgrade to Odom/Carter tandem and the Celtics can waive both of these guys and let them go their merry way. Dallas doesn’t have a 1st this year, but they could snag Dominque Jones and a 2014 1st.
by BillfromBoston on Jan 18, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yuck!
Seriously, Dominque Jones and a late 1st in two years for Pierce? If that’s all Danny could get forget trading Pierce. Yes, more cap space, but with Ray and KG’s salaries coming off the C’s don’t need more cap space…not as much as they’ll need Pierce on the roster next year.
Great article
This is exactly how i feel also. I would rather lose every game by 30 points this year than lose Pierce. It would be like the Celtic family would be trading his son.
AGREED
DO NOT TRADE PAUL PIERCE…
I also would be willing to forfeit every game the rest of the season…
Paul MUST retire a Celtic!!
Ditto, ditto, ditto
“This is my binky” – Lol! Good analogy though. And thanks for answering the no-trade clause question. That helps a lot then because it means if he did go he would’ve been the one to say ok.
I agree as well...
From a fan perspective, I want to see Pierce retire in green. He’s given too much to the franchise to be shipped out now. Similarly, I wouldn’t go back in time and trade Larry or McHale, either.
A lot of those who disagree argue that Danny needs to make a cold-blooded analysis. Keep in mind, though, that there are considerations beyond just the product on the floor. Wyc is a business man, and his team is more marketable with Paul Pierce. You once saw Danny trade a #1 pick for Antoine Walker, a player he didn’t like. Why? Business reasons.
That’s the reason I don’t think Paul will be traded: Wyc loves him.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Maybe Wyc told Danny he'd have prepare the fans and test the waters with them first--hence the leak.
But that still doesn’t mean that he could find a deal he’d choose to do.
Agree wholeheartedly
Some players are meant to be lifelong Celtics and Pierce is one of them like Bird and McHale. I too would not have wanted the latter two traded in the 80’s despite what Danny said about that. I suffered as much as anyone during the 22 year drought, but trading franchise icons for a maybe after 3 titles were already secured, was not something most fans would have liked.
I hated the losing, but would have hated seeing those 2 in another uniform even more. Success is cyclical, sometimes a run is over and can’t be salvaged and a natural dip will occur. The Lakers showed they could rebuild on the fly back then without trading stars, I think the Celtics were well positioned also if not for the tragedies of Bias and Reggie.
I’d rather Pierce retire as a Celtic than whatever value he could bring. If this window is closed, so be it, Pierce’s legacy as a career Celtic is more important in my opinion then some stab at maybe getting marginally better by trading him.
by KJ33 on Jan 18, 2012 12:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It is the right move for the future
I don’t just give him away, and I don’t care about cap space (I don’t believe we are a destination anymore)…. BUUUUUUUUUUT
Danny’s main focus this season should be to somehow garner 1 or 2 Eric Gordon-level prospects and a Top 10 pick for Ray, KG, and Pierce.
I would rather just keep him if we don’t get that
Well, sure...
If you can get two young all-star level players and a lottery pick, you trade any or all of them. However, what teams are going to offer that kind of a package? Most teams with young stars and lottery picks have no interest in trading for 35 year olds.
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
Clearing 45 million in cap space allows Boston to do just that.
Though not ideal, Boston can challenge a few other teams – Indiana with Hibbert, New Orleans with Gordon, and a few other pending restricted free agents that their rights-holding teams may have difficulty challenging for.
If Jeff Green’s price tag is reduced, either in years or dollars, then Boston can pay big bucks for 2 position players while still maintaining cap flexibility. Boston is in a unique position to “over-pay” for two 2nd tier stars while maintaining cap flexibility.
They would also be able to invest in the development of Jeff Green, as a third 2nd tier star, while continuing to build around Rondo and adding two 1st round picks from this draft. If Boston trades Pierce, Allen, and buys out KG (no way to move him) they’d be moving their draft position into the top 10, which would give them the best shot at that “go-to” guy – and at a fixed cost.
There’s a managed re-build, right there.
by BillfromBoston on Jan 18, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
But why right now?
Yes, clearing the cap space allows the C’s to make max offers on RFA’s that teams may, or may not match, and there are some very good RFA targets coming up in the next year or two, but that won’t happen until next summer. Allen and Garnett will be off the books by then, Pierce could be Amnestied and/or retire, or be kept if his salary wasn’t needed to close the deal on a targeted RFA.
As for falling into the low lottery, the cynic in me says, you don’t need to trade anybody off this team to do that. Tell Doc to put Allen, KG and Pierce on the bench and play the rookies all their minutes…that’ll lose you as many games as you want to lose. Of course, you don’t do that now.
Now you try to make the playoffs and roll the dice. In March if it’s clearly not in the cards to make a playoff push, then you tank the rest of the way.
Gotta do it if...
…it’s the right deal. I care more about the Celtics winning then who retires as a Celtic. But that’s just me.
Pierce Staying?
Now why would Paul want to stick around when the Celtics have no chance to win during the rebuilding process? Does anyone really believe that he will want to play here when he could have a chance to win somewhere else. Nobody wants to finish their career playing for a squad thats not going to make the playoffs. I’m sure Paul would rather play for a contender then a lottery team.
Doesnt Wyc have to sign off on all trades this team makes?
If this is the case, there is ZERO chance of this happening.
Even a good deal for us like Batum+Pick from Blazers for Pierce is getting turned down by Wyc.
They want Paul Pierce in the front row of all home games for the next 30 years and roaming around the gym/locker room like Bill Russell and Hav.
We want an opportunity to have these guys mentor our future players. Ray and KG and Pierce coming off the bench at some level would be fantastic for a few years on the cheap.
They will let this team fight one last battle and end it on their own terms.
I really don’t see any of the big three being shipped out.
Especially if Wyc has the final say.
Check out the front page story here on the declining price of tickets--
I’m sure Wyc realizes the Big Three marketing juggernaut lasted only as long as their winning ways.
In reality, the value of Pierce hanging around for mentoring has to be weighed against the potential of adding another top-tier FA in his prime.
I disagree
I think as a businessman Wyc would trade PP for the right price – and that would be exorbitantly high!!! I think, if Danny brought him such a deal, Wyc would sign off.
I’m kind on the fence here. I see both sides. I like the idea that our Superstars retire as a Celtics. But I hate the idea of becoming Lottery Fodder in the next year or 2.
I think the biggest thing is what does PP want? No one has considered this part of the equation. What if PP wanted another shot at a ring and would sign off on the deal? I’m not sure that PP wants to rebuild, he went through the losing and it wasn’t pretty and there were some issue with him.
Another thing no one has talked about is that his contract can be renegotiated under the new CBA. Whether he is traded or not, I would expect Danny to renegotiate PP’s contract spreading out the $32M over 4 years providing even more Cap Space over the next year of two.
However, knowing Danny, I don’t think that trading PP is out of the question. Especially if he gets the deal that he thinks will jump start our rebuilding. Personally, I’m not a attached to PP as Jeff. I’d be very sad to see him go, but not devastated, as long as it was a great deal for US!
Also, as for taking back contracts (rather than just draft picks) for the other Big 3, I’m not sure that’s true. I believe that Memphis and Indy could take on Rays contract as their cap number per Hoopshype is only 50M, but I can’t make a Ray trade with them work, so maybe my capology is wrong.
I really think if any of the Big 3 are moved it will be Ray, because he’s still the best shooter in the NBA and he has a lower salary that expires this summer!
And that's probably how it plays out...
…however, if come March the writing is still on the wall…in big, big letters, then I foresee a tank in our future.
Huh?
First, they wouldn’t work on the cheap. Second, Doc would find a way to put them on the court even if they were 75. Third, Pierce is no Russell or Hav.
by green solution on Jan 18, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
on the fence
I truly believe that in today’s professional sports landscape loyalty to older players breeds mediocrity but I also look at Pierce as a special case.
I wouldn’t shop him but I would listen and if someone blows me away with an offer that I cannot refuse then I would do it.
I admit. I root for the laundry because I am a Celtic fan more then I am a fan of any one player.
What offer could there be?
If say Chicago wants PP, what can they offer, really, without hurting their chances this year? I’m sure Danny wouldn’t do a “Perk-like deal” in this case, just to get 2 bench players and a low draft pick.
Well if Chicago wants another scorer and we need a Center
Joakim Noah, and Deng for Pierce, And JO makes sense. Although that’s sort of a bad deal for Chicago your getting a more consistent scorer in Pierce and we’d be receiving a tough Center finally after Perk. I think it would help both teams and I would consider it for one of the 5 true Centers still actually in this league. (Dwight Howard, Perk, Noah, Bynum, and Marc Gasol) They really get down and dirty, real physical men who enforce the law down low.
As the Celtics age you really begin to notice theirs no toughness anymore, and that’s something we desperately need going forward and I just can’t see us being successful without a physical Center down low to be an enforcer.
"Victory belongs to the most Preserving" - Napoleon
by RotB_MattR on Jan 18, 2012 10:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
SORT of a bad deal for Chicago
Why don’t we try to get Lebron for JO? Noah and Deng for Pierce and JO? I nearly fell off the chair. Do you seriously think Chicago who do that? They would laugh so loud. Noah and Deng are so much better than both of our guys – by a mile.
by green solution on Jan 18, 2012 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe not Deng
But he’s about 10 years younger which makes it a no go for the Bulls.
Grizzles
OJ Mayo and Leon Powe for Paul Pierce
When you say...
“I truly believe that in today’s professional sports landscape loyalty to older players breeds mediocrity”
I think those words are true, but just not today in the NBA but years ago also.
When Red got trade offers from teams for 2 members of the old big 3 of Bird and Mchale he was loyal to them and did not want to trade them so they both could retire as Celtics.
I personally was so happy that Red did that at the time since they were highly responsible for helping the C’s win 3 NBA titles.
But not trading Bird and Mchale away (which I supported at the time and still to date) did indeed stifle the C’s rebuilding plan and helped lead the C’s into years of mediocre play.
I wonder, though...
Would having Chuck Person or Detlef Schrempf instead of Larry / McHale really have led our team back to championship status?
All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino
And if Bias and Lewis not tragically died
would the fact that Bird/McHale were in ‘decline’ have mattered?
That players age and decline isn’t in itself going to be crippling. It’s how you manage that transition as new stars come up.
The problem for us was that we lost two of the bright young stars that were supposed to be there – with no replacements. That compounded and amplified the problem of the decline of our ‘stars’.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Of course losing
Bias hurt dramatically the C’s rebuilding plan.
Adding Bias to the aging core of 3 of Parish, Mchale and Bird plus Lewis & Shaw probably would of increased there championship window.
But considering Bias died, the C’s had to play with the cards dealt to them and had to decided, do they stay with the aging big 3 and delay the rebuilding process or do they try to trade them away to jump start the rebuild process?
Though I did not want to see Mchale or Bird traded away for sentimental reasons, since trading them away could of helped the C’s get younger talented players in return (e.g. see comments above) and to jump start the rebuilding phase I could understand the rational of some at that time to trade them away considering it was probably for in the teams best long term interests.
As..
mentioned above I did not want to trade Bird or Mchale at the time for anyone, but with that said…
We do not know for sure what teams were offering Red for Bird and Mchale.
Some rumors were made public, but some were probably never made public.
So there was a chance that the C’s could of been offered some really nice young talent in return for Bird and Mchale to help them rebuild.
Yes those players may have not alone brought the C’s back to title contention, but they would of helped the cause since Bird and Mchale were aging and injured.
But just going with the public rumors we had at the time,
There was just one public Bird trade rumor involving Bird which was with Indiana :
The deal was if I recall correctly Bird not just for Person but also the #2 pick in the 88 draft as well (which turned out to be Rik Smitts).
I actually think that would not have been a bad move as both Person and Smitts were young and talented players .
There were a couple of public Mchale trades rumors if I recall ,
Mchale to the Knicks for for Kenny "sky’ Walker (and some one else I can not recall) .
(I would not have done this deal)
But the other was Mchale to Dallas for Schrempf and Perkins
which I thought was a pretty good deal since we were getting 2 I think young and talented players in return in exchange for a aging Mchale who had a chronic bad foot.
If the C’s did the 2 trades above and acquired Schrempf , Perkins, Person and Smitts and added them to the young backcourt core at the time of Lewis Shaw the C’s would of had a nice rebuilding plan in effect and possibly could of been in contention for a title .
Just my 2 cents though.
However
There was no guarantee that any of those trades would have made the Celtics Championship contenders. What’s the point of winning 55 games instead of 50 if you don’t win the whole thing? They won 3 titles already, how many teams could say that? Having 32 and 33 hanging from the rafters as lifelong Celtics is something to cherish, especially for this storied franchise.
by KJ33 on Jan 18, 2012 7:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Agree...
there was no guarantee trading Mchale and Bird for the players above would of guaranteed a title.
I do think though adding the young talent mentioned above would of given the C’s a better shot of winning a title in the late 80"s and early 90’s though compared to sticking with Bird and Mchale who were aging players who had chronic injures they were dealing with.
I agree fully though that having Bird and Mchale remain as lifelong Celtics and having there numbers retired in the rafters of the Garden is something to cherish, that is why I was against trading them at the time and still am to date.
years?
twenty something years of sh%$ basketball so they can retire as Celtics? Two number ones from the T-wolves for McHale. You think that might have helped with the 20 some years of absolute sh%$ basketball we had in this town?
It is about the NBA’s system…the system does NOT reward loyalty. …it puts you into hell and it does it for decades.
I think...
its only fair and reasonable for the C’s to give the season some more time to play out before trading any of the big 3.
We signed them up for duty for a 5 year window plan so let them have the chance at least until the trade deadline to see if they can turn the teams fortunes around.
But if at the trade deadline the team looks like it has no chance to compete this year then we can say with a bit more validity ( then at this point) that the big 3 window run has closed, its time to rebuild and if the C’s can get some solid young talent or draft picks in return for them via a trade he should for the good of the teams future pull the trigger as hard as it would be to see it done.
It would not be as hard to see Ray or KG go since they were not original Celtics, but seeing Pierce go would be much, much tougher since he was drafted by the C’s .
But the C’s have a obligation to not be sentimental and a job to rebuild the C’s ASAP to get them back in the hunt for banner 18 sooner rather then later and if it that means they have to move any of the big 3 (who are assets) I think its wise to do for the C’s best future interests.
Yea...
I think since we are less then 20 games into the season its only fair to give the core some more time to see if they can turn things around.
If things do not turn around come the trade deadline the C’s can always move them then.
Teams interested in the big 3 currently, for the most part should still be at the trade deadline I assume, so I see no need to rush things just yet.
The window is closed
Have you forgotten last year? The Heat took the Cs apart in the second round. It wasn’t close.
And now our core is a year older, we’re no better off the bench, and the competition has improved. Not only are we outclassed by Miami and Chicago, we’d have a lot of trouble getting by other teams in the East. Indiana and Philly come to mind.
It’s over. Everybody wants to play Braveheart right now and fight to the last man, but I remember the early 2000s and don’t want to go back. If there’s a chance of getting value for the core, we should do it.
What series were you watching?
Cause I watched one that saw a Celtics team hold leads in the 4th quarter of games 4 and 5, and were a couple stops away from going up 3-2. Oh and they did they while their most important player was playing with basically one arm.
Ya, not even close.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Writing is on the wall...
…but if it really is a matter of “getting into shape” and we don’t know that it isn’t then the writing could come off the wall in a hurry. Give the Big 3 a few weeks more.
Personally, I think Danny has waited a year too long to do the deals. Prior to last season I think he could have gotten very good value for KG and/or Allen. This year, not so much for Allen and even less for KG. Pierce I’d rather not trade, but he might be the only asset (of those 3) that still has a value high enough to bring back players/picks worth doing a deal.
Why did Danny wait? Wyc? Doc? He really thought they could make a successful final run? Or did the ghost of Red bite him? No matter why, I think Danny has missed the window to get value from 2/3 of the Big 3 now.
prior to this year, though, KG & Ray's deals were not 'expiring'.
So even if KG had more ‘player value’ prior to last season, his contract would have been a non-starter.
Although I don’t personally believe any of them are going to be traded (their expiring contracts are valuable to us as well) for a team looking to get an ‘over the hump’ missing piece for a playoff run, THIS is the year when guys like KG & Ray look most attractive because they come with no long-term commitments.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
fordescort
You made 3 great points.
1. It will be much harder on everyone to trade PP than Ray or KG because he has been a life long Celtics.
2. We do need to give this team a chance to jell and see if they can turn it around and become competitive and a playoff team.
3. What’s in the C’s best future interests.
Questions for our Guru's
If a team DID trade for PP, could they then amnesty his after one year?
If the C’s amnestied PP, could then resign him for a lesser amount?
How could they trade PP , because of his contract and salary cap issues. The only teams that could take him on would have to be under the cap? Meaning losers? Perhaps the Clippers might be under and LA is Pierce’s home.
I'm not the Devil's Advocate but I consiider him a close friend
answer to the first two questions is no
we could trade him to a contender but we’d have to take back a matching salary
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark
Dipper
1. No, only the team that negotiated the contract can amnesty it.
2. I believe we would have to wait 1 year under the new CBA
3. Most team are over the cap and would have to move matching salaries, so it might take a 3 or 4 team trade to make it work. However, maybe a team does have a matching contract or contracts that we would take (short term type that wouldn’t crimp all our cap space this summer) not sure that’s happening. The one team that comes to mind is Philly who has been trying to get rid of Elton Brand almost since they got him. Brand and Turnver for KG works (trade Checker ID 5994528). We’d be on the hook for 1 more year on Brand’s contract. However, I can’t really see Philly making this trade the way they are playing.
Pierce has earned the right to retire as a Celtic IF he wants to
On the other hand if PP told Danny he wants another run at a title then I’d oblige him. Chicago has one go to guy which is Rose. Pierce would give them another major weapon in the playoffs. You’d have to get Deng back and a couple of other guys which might be more than chicago wants to give up so maybe a third team would need to be involved. It’s becoming increasingly obvious that ray and KG will not be back unless its for a lot less money and a one year deal. Personally, I beleive KG will retire after this season. Ray still has a few years left but I don’t see anyone trading for him before his deal expires. Danny needs to build a quick, athletic team and he’s going to need players at every position – esepcially in the front court
Disagree
I could see Chicago or any contender who needs a shooter calling us. Ray is still the best shooter in the game. Besides his contract expires at the end of the season, so there’s no big financial commitment. The issue is us getting some value and short terms deals that don’t ruin our cap space this summer.
No way.
What’s next? Move all the home games to Hartford for a change of atmosphere to induce wins? I even read one poster on another blog want to trade PP to the Lakers just because he lives in LA in the offseason. Maybe we could package PP with Doc and Danny and send them to ORl for Otis Smith, Ron Jeremy and Dwight?
Seriously, in a normal season, how many games are pre-season? 7? 8? And how many new guys did we sign? Bowen is right. This team is still finding itself and there is time to right the ship rather than trade everyone. Pierce and KG still have to play themselves into shape. Yes, it is taking maddeningly longer since they are older, but they will. I am still not worried about this season. I have no problem going into the playoffs as a low seed as long as we are coming together at the right time. So let’s get the next 3 and play Orlando to get back to 500. If that happens, I suspect many on here will start changing their tunes and talk about the possibilities with this roster, not some fictional cobbling together of spare parts from other teams.
Yeah, having players who are still physically able to play on an NBA level is, like, totally overrated. We cannot pass on the opportunity to set an NBA record for a streak of sub-20-point first quarters.
Do you honestly think the Big 3 can no longer play on an NBA level?
KG is stil getting double/double, albeit not the numbers as in the past. Ray is averaging close to 18 points per game and shooting lights out. PP is getting there after missing 3 games with an injury that is likely still nagging at him. These guys can still play. Will we be one of the top seeds? No, Will we make the playoffs? Yes. Will anyone want to face us in the playoffs? No. Anything can happen in the postseason, or have we forgotten 2010? So many of us wrote that team off with 2 months left in the regular season. So not ready to panic after 12 games.
Agree partially
I do agree there is time. Ray is having a great season and I can see signs that PP is getting back to normal. But I think the wear and tear on KG may be terminal. He’s being dominated by lesser players on a routine basis. He’s fumbling rebounds that he should gobble up and he’s become Perkinesgue on layups and put backs, rushing his shot and finger rollingrather than powering the ball up. Nor do I see the boundless energy that KG is known for. Maybe he’s just not in good game shape, but I’m thinking it’s age catching up.
Out of the Big 3, KG by far concerns me the most.
It is not just the physical decline, but he is not playing with fire. None of them are, really, except for Pietrus and Bradley. I wrote this a week ago that they are not playing with passion as we have seen in the past. Maybe a few wins in a row changes that.
It's two year later now ...
… and plenty of teams will want to play us in the playoffs. Play the youth.
by green solution on Jan 18, 2012 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
Lol
Well, I guess it´s settled then.
It´s not as if I don´t admire such loyalty.
Though it bears the question
why a retirement in green means so much to the fans. I apologize if that sounds stupid, but is that some kind of cultural american thing?
Personally, I couldn´t care less where he retires. I will remember him for the nearly 15 years he played for us, anyway, not for some number in the rafters.
Because this is an entertainment product.
And more than any of the other ‘major’ sports, the faces of the players in the NBA are part of the entertainment product.
Winning is the most important part of successfully entertaining the fans. But in the NBA it is not ‘the only thing’.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Yeah, but that wasn´t my question
I mean, what does his retirement in green have to do with sentiment?
Maybe because I have a different cultural background, but here in Europe, we don´t hang any numbers in the rafters or retire numbers, at all, because we just don´t care.
I understand that it´s different for american fans, and I respect that, but I still think it´s a strange ritual. Can you explain why this is so important, or is it more something that just wouldn´t feel right if doesn´t happen?
Yes, logic tells you (and me) it's a strange ritual, but
that’s part of the entertainment package for many fans. It’s kind of like watching a soap opera that goes on for many years. It’s part of the story that fascinates us. For many fans there’s more than just winning to this entertainment.
That’s why many of us are on the fence. Logic tell you the team should trade Paul Pierce and clear $40mm in cap space (with RA&KG coming off the books) to sign Dwight Howard and another superstar to go with Rondo. That’s the head speaking. The heart says that would be tearing away the soul of the team.
There are no correct answers here, only opinions.
Ah, ok
so it´s not about honouring the memory, but part of the fascination.
Well, I guess I´ll have to live with it.
I honestly don't understand what you are looking for
Hate to sound critical, but like I said, there are no correct answers, only opinions. For some people it IS about the great memories and nothing else. For others, it’s simply fascination with the story, the drama. And finally for some it’s only about winning. Take your pick or choose all three if you like, but don’t try to fit this problem into a simple box.
Peace.
Huh?
It was a genuine question, nothing more.
It´s a fact that this tradition only exists in America, and it´s also undeniable that this is pretty important to most of you guys.
Someone must´ve started it, and I was wondering if there is some kind of deeper meaning I´m missing. I don´t have a problem with it, who am I to judge a local tradition?
Live long and prosper.
Yeah, not sure about that either.
It’s not only an American thing, here in Australia the same fascination with one-club players exists, especially in Aussie Rules. Loyalty is a BIG part of the sports experience.
"Can't eat sushi in Utah, brother. Landlocked."
by IsItTheShoes on Jan 18, 2012 5:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's simply not true.
In world football fans give it up to ‘one-club men’ – those footballers who have played for just one club.
Its definitely a notion that goes on outside of America.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
It's a Celtics Thing
It’s the culture that Red created back in the 50s and 60s that has remained a part of the team. It’s also being copied by other sport teams in the NBA and other sports. I’ve seen every Celtics banner raised, but I’m torn on whether to trade PP, KG or Ray. It makes sense, if it’s a good deal, but goes against the Culture Red created.
During Red’s time, loyalty was a big thing, and it probably resulted in more banners. But today’s NBA is vastly different, there’s a cap, the finances and marketing are different and the players are different. In Red’s early days with the Celtics he threw a player agent out of his office whol wanted to negotiate a contract. That can’t be done today and survive.
I didn´t know that
Shame on me.
If Red really started this tradition, that makes people´s insistence even more understandable.
Reality Check: The Boston Celtics are in rebuilding mode and have been since last season
Think about it.
For every action, there's a reaction
by SBookerSaintsFan on Jan 18, 2012 10:00 AM EST reply actions
As I said in the other thread on this - this is just slow news day stuff.
Wojo put this article out there in his Yahoo article knowing full well it would generate a zillion reactions.
That doesn’t mean there is any basis at all to the idea that Danny will trade Pierce.
I would put the chance that Pierce gets traded at pretty close to zero.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Really, all he said is Danny is getting calls about Pierce.
Never once does he mention any insight to Danny’s thinking, or any team sources who have even hinted to the slightest remote possibility that Danny is actually thinking about doing it.
He said, only, Danny is getting calls from teams who want Paul Pierce if the Celtics decide to blow it up.
We all could have guessed that without Woj saying it, of course teams are going to call. Of course Danny is going to listen, it doesn’t mean a single thing.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I eon't know where all of these rumors are coming from
The remind me of the Ray Allen trade rumors when he wasn’t playing so well a couple of years ago. I think those included the Celtics getting back Iguodala BTW.
So that’s the thing. Will you get a young all-star caliber player in return for any of the Big 3? Is someone like Iguodala or Monta Ellis or even Demarcus Cousins available?
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, I would not trade any of the Big 3 for a bunch of draft picks. And trading a franchise player like Paul Pierce certainly won’t be easy for Danny since he’s going to have tp get equal or superior value in return.
Good point.
Remember how many people were clamoring for Ray to be traded in 2010?
Interesting names you mention as well. I think Iguodola and Josh Smith are two very intriguing names out there, if Danny ever did decide to blow this thing up. Both have been rumored in trades over the past could years, and both would be excellent pieces around Rondo, fit his style of play perfectly (athletic wing players with solid mid-range games who can finish in transition.) If Danny decides to blow it up, those are calls he’d have to make. A principle trade involving Pierce for Iggy, and Ray for Smith (with whatever over moving parts are needed to make it happen) makes sense for a lot of parties involved, I would think.
I’m on record saying I don’t want to trade Pierce, no matter what. But IF Danny did do it, as much as it would hurt me, I can see the value in two trades like that, and going into next season with a starting line up of Rondo, Iggy, Green (if they resign him with bird rights), Smith, along with Johnson, Moore, and Bass off the bench, is a solid team that’s 1 or 2 pieces away from legitimate championship relevance again.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Pierce less = Price less
Pierce can never be matched by any player in the NBA if we speak of importance to this generation’s Boston Celtics, not even a mutant combination of Kobe Bryant clutchness, Lebron James’ athleticism and strength, and Kevin Durant’s shooting. Pierce is priceless to this team.
Seedings can change on a dime....
Miami already has 4 losses and Wade is banged up. The Knicks are not as good as advertised and hovering around 500. Rose has turf toe which could affect his play all year. The Magic will come down to earth once Howard is traded. The point is that it is not set in stone that these teams will be seeded higher than us. So much can happen. Injuries can devastate one of these teams just like they have done to us in the past. The Pacers and Sixers are up and coming, but let’s see how they do after 50 games or so. The Celtics will be in the thick of it. Does not make sense to blow it up. Let’ Ray and KG play out their contracts. They expire and we will have plenty of cap space if they do not sign for the hometown discount. We no longer have Green’s contract. Let’s worry about next season when it happens. The Big 3 can still play and I would like to see how the season plays out with them. If you are going to make a trade, send JO somewhere for a younger back up center and play the center position by committee with Wilcox, new guy and White Out.
If you've got them on DVR, go back and watch the Cs-Miami series again
Then tell me you think this team – one year older and without an improved bench – has a realistic shot at the Finals. We weren’t just beaten, we were out of our league.
I do not need to watch the Miami series
since I watched every minute of it last year. I do not think you can compare last year’s squad to this year’s squad. First, Rondo’s injury in the series removed any chance of beating the Heat. Before that, who knows? We were playing them well up until then and the series could have easily been 2-2 with a couple of breaks the other way. Second, our bench last year was terrible. Shaq was injured.
As for a shot this year at the finals, anything is possible since, as my post above indicated, teams may suffer season changing injuries at the wrong time. Also, our guys will get their legs and the bench will come around. We will not be the top seed but that does not mean we cannot make some noise in the playoffs. Look at the Giants. 9-7 and a great shot at going to the Super Bowl. Before the Jets game, they were written off for dead. Baseball? Did anyone see the Cardinals winning the world series around, let’s say late August or early September? You have to play the games. One reason we all love sports is that anything can happen. 12 games is not enough to trade PP and blow up the team.
Well said, JPV
That’s my take on it – “Let’s just watch and see how it all unfolds!”
I don’t understand why its so important to predict doom and gloom OR roses and parades. There are still a lot of games to play and a lot of wierd things can and probably will happen.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Sentimental journey?
Time to blow it up. Past time, actually.
Like I said yesterday, the worst thing about Pierce is that he’s still good enough to single-handedly raise a bad team to mediocrity. The Cs now suck, and they deserve to suck without being deprived of a high lotto pick by Pierce.
Put Pierce on Orlando, or Portland, or several other teams, and watch the balance of power change. That dynamic tends to suggest that a deal of some kind is possible.
The Cs are a lotto team, not a contender. Look at the standings.
"People don't understand, if you can't live the rest of your life off one year in the NBA, you can't live off 21." -- Keon Clark
Because the standings mean SO much right now. Did you write Miami off when they started 9-8 last season?
"Can't eat sushi in Utah, brother. Landlocked."
by IsItTheShoes on Jan 18, 2012 5:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How do you make a successful transition from aging championship team to your next era?
This is a bit off topic, but it goes to the real issue behind the “Should we trade PP?” question. What are the models for making it work? Is there a way to make the Celtics be contenders again within a generation?
The truth is very few teams have been able to do it. Only San Antonio, Boston, Los Angeles, Detroit and Golden State/Philly have been able to win championships over more than one generation of players. So odds are against us.
But there are a few ways teams have been successful:
1) Have a younger superstar already on your team. The Russell era transitioned almost seamlessly into the Havlicek era with a single <.500 season. The Robinson era-Spurs became the Duncan-era Spurs with a 57-25 record. Is Rondo that guy for us?
2) The long , slow, painful rebuild. See "Bulls, Chicago – post-Jordan." But now they’re legit.
3) The short, painful rebuild. Sure the Lakers had a couple of lousy years, but only five years separate Magic’s retirement from the start of the Kobe/Shaq era. Gotta give Jerry West some credit for that.
4) Red’s Green Magic. When your superstar John Havlicek retires, just get a rookie named Larry Bird to play for you in the next season. What could be simpler?
Anything I missed? Anything look realistic for the Celtics?
Rondo is a star but not a superstar
And I don’t think he’ll ever be a superstar.
by Celticsdude on Jan 18, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
Doc...
was signed for 5 more years. That being said, his signing was done to rebuild and teach the young guys. There may be something coming up as far as trading any of the big 3. I would have no problem trading KG and Ray but I would with Pierce. KG is no longer the guy the C’s signed and Ray is still a great shooter(that’s it!). If you can sign them cheap and have them come off the bench for another 2 years, that would be great. To me, Pierce still has alot of high octane in the tank that can last another two years. Would it be smart to try and trade for some young blood with talent or high picks, yes. Is that what most Celtics fans want, no.
IMHO, he should be retired as a Celtic. Call me selfish but I also invested many ours of my life watching him from day one go through the Celtics process and would like to see the process finish here in Boston.
Doc
He should be teaching the young guys right now. Like last year, he refuses to. He keeps trying to get blood out of a stone (Big 3, JO, Shaq, Rasheed). Nobody will confront Doc because he’s a nice guy. Let’s be honest.
by green solution on Jan 18, 2012 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
Is a "star" enough?
Rondo is a star. Maybe he is not a “superstar” but he’s pretty good. Who’s a superstar in this league? Howard? What has he won? James? What has he won? I know, I know, they are superbly talented individual players (i.e. superstars) but they still need help to get rings. Why can’t you put the right cast of characters with Rondo and win?
We'd still need a superstar
Rondo won it thanks to the Big 3. He emerged after we won the championship.
Anyway, we can’t win a championship with Rondo as our main guy. Who’s taking the last shot? Who’s going to score?
Howard’s teams have always been pretty bad and yet he’s managed to keep them competitive and get them to the Finals. That’s not happening with just a star player.
by Celticsdude on Jan 18, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
A part of me hopes
We go into the offseason and bring in a couple of high quality young players, get Green back healthy and cheap, keep PP in town, and resign KG and Allen as reserves for the vet min. Hand the reigns over but keep the old guys around for leadership and back up minutes. We’ll call them, the Big 6th Men or The Big 3 off the bench.
I can dream…boy, can I ever dream.
by redbridge13 on Jan 18, 2012 11:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I agree with this
At some point the old guys have to accept roles off the bench right? And I like the idea of the young guys learning from the old guys and their work ethic.
by Celticsdude on Jan 18, 2012 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Right
They ooze Celtic toughness and pride, their bodies just don’t have what it takes to be the dominant players they once were at this point and time, but they’d be almost unfairly high caliber as role players.
by redbridge13 on Jan 18, 2012 11:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sounds Good but
I have the feeling that KG is going to retire and if he played he wuld want more than a Vet Min. As for Ray, I think, he will continue to play and will also want more. That leaves PP and I do believe he has something left in the tank. It would be nice for him to retire a Celtic, but as many people have stated he might be a better trade asset.
Not
I agree, but Doc would never do this. He’s intimidated by their (the old four) reputations, and their marketing value. Doc is incredibly soft and timid with regards them. He’d never approach these guys and ask them to do that. And he’s petrified of starting and teaching youngsters and new guys, even though he knows it’s the right thing to do. Danny needs to speak with Doc.
by green solution on Jan 19, 2012 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
I like this.
I’m not sure that it’s a realistic way forward for the Celtics, but I like it.
Centers of Attention
I would add to that short list of legit centers in the league two other names. Gortat and Kaman.
Caman is too injury prone
But Gortat had been efficiently hiding in the shadows for some time now. I’d love him in Green.
by redbridge13 on Jan 18, 2012 11:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Let's wait and see
No team is running ahead of the pack yet and everyone is sorting themselves out
Last Shot
Then we may have to trade Rondo for someone who can take that last shot?
No
But we need One of those guys to play with Rondo
Slow
Those guys cannot keep up with Rondo anymore. Not even close. Some of the bench players can. Doc?
by green solution on Jan 19, 2012 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
I'm really sorry if someone has already mentioned this, but please consider that PP may WANT a trade ...
His Celtics legacy is firmly in place and, if the team continues to struggle, he may prefer a trade to a contender so he can have a chance at another title before retiring. I don’t think we can assume he would be opposed to a trade as long as it’s a team that’s in the mix. In other words, I think the natural instant reaction to this is “Don’t disrespect PP that way,” but a trade may be the ultimate respect for a player we love. Both sides can get what is best for them.
Again, I’m sorry if someone already mentioned this — I usually read all previous comments before commenting, but I have a deadline and had to skip today.
Sure - anything is _possible_. But there is zero basis for even talking about that.
Let’s not inject random suppositions about what Pierce MIGHT want when he hasn’t given a single clue towards that end. This is how stupid rumors get going.
As of this moment we have ZERO reason to believe Pierce wants to leave. Nada. Nothing.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Wow, that's a pretty aggressive response to a my fairly innocuous comment.
Please keep in mind that I am the #89 comment on a story posted by Jeff Clarke on Celticsblog in response to stories written by other people speculating about trade scenarios. The trade idea was not my concoction and I have never made ANY pretense to know whether a trade has been discussed. I don’t even know if there is a “rumor,” per se. If there is a rumor, it was started well before I posted my comment.
To tell me not to talk about something that 80 or so people before me have talked about … I don’t get it.
Also, I think you are missing my point. My comment is actually intended as an alternative to the (as you put it) random suppositions I’ve seen here, in other comments, that a trade would be disrespectful to Pierce. There’s a tendency on this blog to paint Danny Ainge as a “snake” (people actually use that exact word quite a lot), which I think is unfair. In this case, it seems that people are randomly supposing that if PP were to be traded, it would be entirely in the Celtics interest and not Pierce’s. All I was saying is that those random suppositions have no basis because we are not privvy to any discussions, or if these discussions have taken place.
Not sure where you see aggression in my response.
I’m just pointing out that there is nothing to support that PP has any such inclination. I also agree there is nothing much supporting the idea that Danny is even considering trading PP and totally agree it is unfair for folks to label him a ‘snake’ – for something that hasn’t even happened even!
This whole ‘discussion’ is based on idle speculation. Yet it ripples outward and echoes back into media questioning players and staff as if it was based on something real. It drives me nuts.
I apologize if I did come on too strong appealing for restraint in offering suppositions about Pierce’s inclinations. It was not my intention to tell you not to talk about anything.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Believe me ...
… he does want a trade.
by green solution on Jan 18, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Re:Paul Pierce Rumors: Head Says "Hmmm," Heart Says NO!
My head says- f### NO!!
My heart says- kill them all Johnny
by calc on Jan 18, 2012 2:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
One thing to consider is maybe Paul wants out………Celtics would make it easy for him if we traded him, he can always point his finger and we should live with that.
Maybe he does - but we have ZERO evidence of that right now.
So, it’s really not worth considering.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
What you're really saying is that Jeff's post is BS and he should not post on this topic again.
Which is a valid point. But why are you attacking other READERS of the blog for commenting on the story, rather than attacking the story itself?
I am always interested to hear your opinions because I find you to be an astute and articulate fan. Your arguments are always well thought out and interesting, but it seems ike you’re going after the wrong targets here.
I did offer my opinion on the _topic_ elsewhere.
Not really ‘attacking’ anyone.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Do not trade Big 3
Retire the Big 3.
Do whatever you want with Rondo and O’Neal! Just get back someone beyond decent!
Keep Rondo and Pierce. Everybody else is fair game, but if you have to Pierce before Rondo
I say go with the next 15 games before doing anything though.
GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!
They got Indiana, and Orlando twice in the next 10 games.
The rest of the schedule are basically bottom dweller teams, it’s entirely plausible this team could run off a 8-2 stretch over that frame, if not better.
Then we’re sitting at 12-10 and I bet a lot of this nonsense calms down.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
the schedule looks favorable then...
Doc and the players came back for one last run so might as well give it another fifteen to see what they can do. Rondo is a good point guard and young so C’s should hang on to him unless they could upgrade and now that CP has moved, there is no upgrade out there. Pierce when healthy still can light it up on offense and get his own shot—underrated defender also—so until that changes are if his health really goes downward, I think he can play at a high level for at least another year after this one.
Allen can light it up, but he needs someone to set him up but could play more years and would get interests from many teams. KJ is really at the end of things, but could be valuable if traded and played in a reduced role for some team. How are the draft picks for the C’s looking this year? Have not seen any C’s games.
GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!
But ...
… against top teams teams and in a tough series, this team gets absolutely crushed due to its age, it’s lack of a serious big man and it’s lack of a real power forward.
by green solution on Jan 18, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
A real power forward?
KG is old, but he isn’t that bad…neither is Bass. Do you mean a more conventional banger type PF?
Yes
Like a younger PJ Brown or an Charles Oakley-type. Nothing fancy, just a player who is smart, strong – and with sharp elbows.
by green solution on Jan 18, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
Great Article Jeff
man, this is really hard. the chemistry and the “WE not ME” team concept of the celtics of the old and the new era has made me a fan. Loyalty is a very touchy subject in basketball business. if i were the GM , i will find way to keep the Big 4. if it meant begging them to accept a huge paycut. if it doesnt work, i guess i’ll be fired knowing i did my best.
unfortunately this only happens in movies. :(
Communication/Chance to win this season
As far dealing any of the Big 3 before the season is over (Especially PP) is a question of communication and player’s choices. Tell PP other teams who are contending are calling. Ask him if he’d be interested in playing for one of them because Boston is rebuilding and it doesn’t appear that the Celtics are getting past the 1st round even if they make the playoffs. Both Ray and KG are coming off the books next year.
Destinations that would make sense would be Chicago, the Mavs and the LA C. Clippers(The Lakers would make sense as well, but would Boston really like to help LA win their 18th?) If so, would they deal Pierce for Gasol? Pierce at the very least, has earned the right to make the choice for himself. If he agrees to go to a contender that would be willing to deal a young player with promise and or a draft pick for Pierce, it could lower cap, be a youthful building block for Boston and help another team as well as PP to possibly win a Championship.
But if PP decides he wants to retire a Celtic during the rebuilding process, then he stays. KG looked really good last year. Is it just that he hasn’t gotten into playing shape yet? Or is this really the end for him. Maybe he can offer some suggestions about his future. Ray is still a valuable asset as well – He would fit in with Boston’s plans during the rebuilding process the next 2 yrs or could help another team win a Championship as well.
With a very slim chance to win the East or even get past the 1st round, the window of opportunity has seem to close already. Other teams have just gotten younger and stronger with experience. You can only fool father time for so long.
If it takes until the deadline to find out if they have enough left to make the post and have a chance to contend, then just wait a bit longer. If we’re sticking together, we definitely need to get a power forward or a center. My personal choice is Kevin Love. He is a restricted FA next season and was just offered a lowball contract, IMO, KLove is a top 10 if not a top 5 talent who hasn’t even hit prime yet. How many season long double double players are there? The Celtics will have plenty of cap to sign him. With Rondo and Pierce back Bass, Love and Ray, I think we’re a playoff team while we rebuild.
So there are plenty of options. But communicating honestly without offending anyone is the key. Do they have it in them to contend? Would they be interested in taking a shot elsewhere durring the rebuilding process? Or would they rather end their careers in Green with a closed window? It’s all negotiable.
What?
Pierce for Gasol? Gasol is 10x the player Pierce is right now. The Lakers would be nuts. Pierce would rather go to a winner than retire as a Celtic. These are multi-millionaire athlete businessmen we’re talking about these days.
sports
Sports plagues a garbage beneath the researcher. Before a manner dashes the crashing revenge. Sports railroads a sphere. Sports scandalizes each citizen throughout a why. Sports fumes this prime wizard without a slice. When can her temporary smoker retract Sports?
by stelanilina@gmail.com on Jan 20, 2012 8:13 AM EST reply actions
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