Doc: Celtics Were Out Of Shape

by Jeff Clark on Jan 23, 2012 5:52 AM EST in Boston Celtics News & Links

If there's one thing that I wasn't all that worried about headed into the season it was being in shape. Kevin Garnett is a maniac that has to be held back from working. Ray Allen's OCD routines are legendary. Paul Pierce has come into camp looking better each year and runs a charity called "Truth on Health" which promotes fitness for kids. The only star I might have worried a little about is Rajon Rondo - in part because he was hurt in the playoffs last year and might have been limited in his offseason routine.

Still, all these guys had ample time to rest early in the offseason and keep themselves prepared in the event that the lockout got worked out in time for Christmas. Apparently that didn't happen.

Doc: We weren’t ready - BostonHerald.com

"I do, but I’d like to find out for sure and get us in shape and get us healthy and get us playing the right way — and then I could give you that answer," Rivers said before Ray Allen went out with an injured left ankle in yesterday’s 100-94 triumph against the Wizards. "I did before camp started and I saw any of them walk in the door. When they walked in the door, I said, ‘Boy, we’d better get in shape quick.’ I do, but I’d like to have a real answer, and it’s very difficult to give you any type of answer right now."

Pierce was set back by an early injury (or was the injury partly a result of poor conditioning?). Garnett looks old and has lost lift on his jump. Is that partly because he's out of game shape or is it just the many, many miles on his odometer catching up with him? Rondo has looked good in stretches, but once again is inconsistent. At least Ray has looked in pristine shape - but now he's got an ankle issue, which can't help.

To Doc's credit, he's not trying to make excuses (even if it does sort of come across that way.

"You can't use the lockout as an excuse, because other teams didn't. They came in ready. That's out fault."

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Out of shape or just old?

We probably won’t have a consensus agreement on the answer to that question until after March 15.

by LooseCannon on Jan 23, 2012 6:12 AM EST reply actions

That same reasoning....

Just about applies to all NBA teams.

by LarryBird33 on Jan 23, 2012 7:36 AM EST reply actions

Except most team didn't have three mid-30's starters come in out of shape.

by clover on Jan 23, 2012 8:41 AM EST up reply actions

teams

by clover on Jan 23, 2012 8:41 AM EST up reply actions

Out Of Shape Or Out Of Game Shape

I can’t imagine the culprits mentioned as being out of shape. Out of game shape?, definitely. Timing off, definitely. Having to incorporate many new players, some rooks, definitely. Having to change their off-season training activities—-definitely. Ray has talked alot about this. Rondo may have been able to do some running or roller skating (doubtful because of chance for a fall), but he didn’t have alot of choices. Also, don’t forget about Pierce missing training camp and Pietrus coming in late, off an injury and not being able to practice or play his first few weeks here. Also, with the knee surgery off-season shaping up was not a great option for him. (We’ve already seen marked improvement in his game from when he first took the court).

The Celtics play team basketball so I think that timing and incorporating new players was the biggest problem. Other teams that got off to a good start have one on one players who can carry you to a win. The Celtics, because of their team culture and precise defense don’t have that (except for Pierce last nite and Rondo once or twice). The Celtics are a pass first team and it will take them much longer than other teams to play the way we expect them too.

When Doc says “out of shape” I haven’t really heard him define what he means. HIs statement is absolutely true. We fans take “out of shape” as a knock on the players, but is this really what Doc means. Also, did any Celtic come in over weight? I don’t think so. And JO talked about this being the first off-season in a long-time that he wasn’t rehabbing an injury and that he was able to work to stay in shape.

Regardless, we need to wait maybe ten more games to see what this team is going to be. But, when saying that we now have known injuries to Rondo, Ray, Dooling and how much will that set us back?

"I don't come to play, I come to WIN"--Larry Bird
"Criminally Negligent Officiating"--Tommy Heinsohn

by TrueGreen on Jan 23, 2012 9:25 AM EST reply actions

Doc went out of his way to credit Ray and Rondo as being exceptions who came in very much in shape.

by clover on Jan 23, 2012 10:03 AM EST up reply actions

Paul and KG were heavily involved in the labor dispute

so…that is probably a major reason why they weren’t in better shape. That being said….yeah, I doubt they were in bad shape, but probably a few weeks behind where they needed to be.

by guy incognito on Jan 23, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions

A number of people also reported on Pierce coming into camp over his playing weight.

by clover on Jan 23, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions

Even Ray's reflexes have been a lot slower this year

by mdowell04 on Jan 23, 2012 9:48 AM EST reply actions

"or was the injury partly a result of poor conditioning?"

Umm… no. There is no way that a bruised heel is the result of poor conditioning.

I’m not claiming Pierce couldn’t have come into camp in better shape. But there is no way that you could blame that that type of injury on conditioning.

That statement adds unnecessary ‘color’ in an otherwise fine article, Jeff.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Jan 23, 2012 11:35 AM EST reply actions

I am no doctor

but it seems to me that carrying additional weight could most certainly help contribute to a bruised heal, which can be, and most likely is, the result of impact.

Additionally, having a weaker lower body, particularly in both upper and lower leg muscles, tendons, and ligaments, would cause more of that impact to be absorbed by the heal.

I love PP like everybody else, but I was disappointed in the way he came back, and while it’s a business, I don’t care for the way he carried on during the lockout.

Again, I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, but, I, personally didn’t care for it.

But advocating to cancel the season and then coming back in poor shape really rubbed me the wrong way.

Continue to produce like last night, and all is forgiven. I’m very fickle.

"Chemistry is something that you don't just throw in a frying pan and mix it up with another something and throw something on top of that and then fry it up and put in a tortilla and put it in microwave, heat it up, give it to you and expect it to taste good. You know? If y'all don't know what I'm talking about then you can't cook and this doesn't concern you."

by KGHurtYourFeelings on Jan 23, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions

Again. No. That sort of injury is not caused by lack of conditioning.

It is a force impact injury. Being in perfect condition won’t make you immune at all.

Be upset with Pierce all you want for being involved with the players association (though I don’t know where you are getting that he was ever ‘advocating to cancel the season’) or for being out of shape.

But don’t ascribe blame for things that are not causally connected.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Jan 23, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions

Again.

I did not ascribe blame or cause. And conditioning never makes anybody “immune” to anything.

But that doesn’t mean conditioning CAN’T play a role in injury.

Like you just said, it is a force impact injury.

Paul Pierce being heavier than normal COULD absolutely have played a role in this injury.

Neither one of us knows if it did or didn’t. BUt it isn’t impossible. Greater weight directly translates to more force and greater impact being placed on the heel, a part of the body directly responsible for bearing a great deal of the body’s weight.

As far as Pierce’s involvement in the lockout, I don’t have any insider info, and I don’t know anything for sure. But multiple sources said that he was one of the mobilizing forces in getting players militant and fired up about desertification.

I don’t know if it’s true, but it is bad PR nonetheless. Like I said, I’m not furious, but it rubbed me the wrong way. That is all. And if he came back in shape, I wouldn’t have cared in the least.

by KGHurtYourFeelings on Jan 23, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions

Certainly conditioning can play are role in SOME and even MANY injuries.

But it has pretty much NOTHING to do with this PARTICULAR type of injury.

Just like hitting a foul ball off the foot -resulting in a broken foot – has nothing to do with conditioning or crashing into a sideline chair while diving for a ball and ending up with bruised ribs has nothing to do with conditioning. There are a TON of injuries that happen that have absolutely NOTHING to do with conditioning.

And a bruised heel is one of them. There are two basic causes. In one, you have a transverse impact that literally shifts the pad of the heal off to the side such that the bone is exposed and bruised, all in one event. That is the ‘awkward’ landing mode. That can happen at anytime to anybody no matter what shape or condition they are in. The other is more gradual – repeated pounding the leads to displacement or thinning of the pad – this is “policeman’s heel” or “soldier’s heel”. This is actually something that can happen to athletes who do TOO MUCH training – so in a sense the cause is the opposite of being out of shape.

Descriptions of what happened to Pierce sound more like the former.

For Pierce’s weight to be an aggravating factor he would have to be, what, a couple hundred pounds overweight?

You are right, we don’t know absolutely what ‘did or didn’t’. But just considering simple physiology and probabilities. There is almost zero chance that Pierce’s conditioning (or lack of) had any causal contribution to the bruised heel injury.

To keep suggesting it is just reaching.

As I said, you may have plenty of things to criticize Pierce over, but to try to add in blaming him for causing this particular injury to himself by being out of shape is an extremely thin and tenuous stretch.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Jan 23, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions

I don't know man.

I think that we agree that the most likely cause of Pierce’s injury was some sort of landing on his heal issue.

Now, you use the term “awkward” landing. OK. Regardless, you are much more likely to have an awkward landing, or an overly impactful landing, if you are carrying more weight.

Especially in basketball, where you already have athletes that are putting much more pressure on their body than a typical person.

More weight coming down hard, or awkardly, on a person’s heel most certainly could have an impact on a heal bruise!

And while I enjoy false numbers as much as the next guy, I’m not sure where you pulled this one from:

“For Pierce’s weight to be an aggravating factor he would have to be, what, a couple hundred pounds overweight?”

^^^LOL. come on now.

Again, I don’t know that his added weight had anything to do with his injury. But to pretend it isn’t plausible that there is a potential link is….well, implausible.

by KGHurtYourFeelings on Jan 23, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions

No. You are reaching here.

Sure, I pulled the ‘couple hundred pounds’ out of nowhere. But it actually is to the physiological point.

If your heel pad is in place, then adding a few pounds of weight has pretty much no effect. You have to add a LOT of weight before it would make any difference. Far more than say, being 5-10 lbs out of shape. Hence my ‘couple hundred pounds’ comment.

The injury occurs due to the pad being stretched out of position, thus exposing the bone to bruising – which doesn’t take any additional weight to be traumatic. The difference between Pierce weighing 225 lbs or 250 lbs would be nothing here.

A small amount of weight gain would have more significance in the second type of cause of repeated wear and tear (“Policeman’s Heel”) – but that would in Pierce’s case be symptomatic of having been steadily working out – not of falling out of shape due to NOT working out. So it doesn’t fit your charge. It is a fact that this type of injury is actually COMMON to athletes as a result of working out.

Just because something is not absolutely 100% ruled out doesn’t make it ‘plausible’. If something has only the tiniest chance of being so, then it is by definition ‘implausible’. It is implausible (i.e., not likely) that Pierce’s heel bruise was caused or aggravated due to him being out of shape.

Note that I am not claiming he was in shape.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Jan 23, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions

IDK

Your argument is well-spoken, but I think you’re making everything up. I know I am.

What we need is some expert witness testimony here. Somebody have Jeff Clark call in an Orthopedic Specialist, Ed Lacerte, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

That’s the only way we’re getting to the bottom of this.

by KGHurtYourFeelings on Jan 23, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions

Pull a Nowitzki then...

…And give them a week away from the team to get back into shape. It’s not like having them out of shape but playing in games is helping this team right now. And the bench guys can get good solid run while the out of shape culprits work their way back into shape.

by yakyakyak on Jan 23, 2012 3:03 PM EST reply actions