Bench Pressing To Score More
by Jeff Clark on Jan 9, 2012 10:15 PM EST
in Boston Celtics News & Links
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I've said it before and I'll keep repeating it till I'm blue in the face - this team goes only as far as Rondo and the Big 3 take them. That said, they'll need some help to get to the postseason in one piece and that means the bench has to step up. In particular the bench needs to find a way to score.
Green Street " A closer look at the Celtics’ struggles off the bench
The Celtics scored just 34 points against the Nets on Wednesday and then, as Rivers said, set the game back a half-century with a dreadful 25-point showing against the Pacers on Friday, tying a franchise record for offensive futility. In both games a pattern emerged: The starters began with a decent, if underwhelming, start and the second unit couldn’t provide any offensive support.
To their credit, he reserves took the weekend to work together (as the starters got some valuable time off).
Trying to find something in reserves - Boston Celtics Blog - ESPN Boston
Dooling said the reserves spent time going over defensive principles, but the unit's offensive production was the chief concern. Without a surefire go-to player in the second unit (though Bass has shouldered that load and Mickael Pietrus is nearing his debut), there's more of an onus on devising plays that stress ball movement and incorporating all five players. Dooling said those types of plays were implemented on Sunday. "We're trying to find something that works for our unit," said Dooling. "I think we came up with a couple good plays [Sunday] that'll be conducive for the unit that we have."
The aforementioned Pietrus will help some, but he's mostly a spot up corner 3 point shooter on offense. His primary talent is on defense, which means he'll only be adding to the 2nd unit's core strength. That's not actually a terrible thing when I come to think of it. If that 2nd unit can truly lock down the opponent for stretches while the starters are resting, that's as much as you could ask for. The key is locking them down and tossing in a few buckets along the way while you are at it.
Still, can't count on locking teams down for long. Eventually you have to put the ball in the bucket. Looking down the bench, I don't see anyone outside of Brandon Bass really capable of consistently providing scoring on a night in and night out basis. So like Dooling said, they'll have to share the ball and get open looks for each other. Once they hit a few shots, hopefully their confidence will grow and they'll feel more confident as a unit.
On the other hand, this isn't hockey and there aren't going to be a lot of competitive games where at least one of the Big 4 aren't on the court at all times. So those guys are still going to have to have the confidence to look for their own shot instead of deferring to the star (and waiting for him to do something till the last second).
It is still early yet, and this second unit is still getting to know each other as we get to know them. Hopefully we'll see them start to gel sooner than later. Time's a ticking.
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Set up Steimsma for pick and pop shots lust like KG does
that would help…..and then let Bass attack the rim…. same time…..
of course Steimsma needs more minutes….
Is it Soup Yet?
'Agree with this
With Stiemsma able to hit that 12 footer, Bass a threat out to 15-16 feet and Pietrus a decent three point shooter, there is no reason this second unit shouldn’t be able to pull bigs out of the paint to defend their shots. That will open up the paint for plays that attack the rim by Bass, Dooling & even Bradley.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Good point, Master Po.
Once the 2nd unit manages to get some decent practice time together, which they haven’t had, to date, until right now, there should be considerable improvement. Once Pietrus starts to play, and he should help make an impact down the line, once he gets acclimatized, he should help spread the floor on offense.
If Stiesma continues to get some productive minutes and starts dropping some in, the 2nd unit will be an actual scoring threat. I would actually prefer to keep JO’s minutes down to around 20 a game, and keep him healthy. Don’t underestimate him in the playoffs.
While Daniels hasn’t shown much yet, I attribute it to rust more than anything else, and he’ll start to show improvement from game to game.
Remember the goal is banner no.18, and this shortened season is to be used to have the team come together to play as a HEALTHY unit, come the playoffs.
As far as I’m concerned, all else, except making the playoffs, of course, is practice for the post season.
Lygafe.
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix | International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ] | Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
Exactly. Pietrus will add more offense and I can't wait to see him on the floor with Bass.
We still have 58 games to go and plenty of time to turn things around. The second unit is young and athletic, something we are not used to in the Big 3 era. They will get it going.
Dooling/Bradley
Pietrus
Wilcox/Steimsa
Bass
Daniels
This is a fast bench with some shooters and rebounders that should dominate most other team’s second unit. I still think this is the best team since 2008 and we will soon see what they can really do once Pietrus is in the mix.
Pietrus can't create his shot.
He’s a decent 3 point shooter who excels at the corner 3.
But getting that shot requires someone to create, somebody needs to be driving the lane to get defenses to collapse and kick out to him.
That’s where the unit has struggled, Bradley, Dooling, Daniels have been wildly inconsistent in their ability to beat their man and get into the lane. We don’t lack for shooters, we lack for shot creators. Pietrus doesn’t help with that.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Agree Sizzlack. Pietrus will bring energy and the guy guarding him will have to respect that 3 point shot.
Dooling is probably our best hope in the second unit to create shots for others. I like Dooling’s energy as well and he will improve as he learns the system. But when you compare this bench to last year, it is so much better on paper. Now they have to prove it. Plenty of time left to do that.
Just by virtue of having a legitimate outside shot
Pietrus helps his own cause because his defender will have to come out of the paint to defend him. This will create space to help our slashers to attack and thus create shot opportunities by collapsing the defense. We DO have several guys who are willing to go inside to score (Bass & Wilcox up front, Daniels, Bradley, Dooling from the back). But that will work better if they have space to work with and for that you need to have at least 3 guys (preferably 4) who are threats from outside so that defenders can’t camp out in the paint.
That’s what has made our starting unit so effective in the half-court offense these last 4 years – KG, Ray & PP all draw their defenders out of the paint. Rondo slashes and either scores or passes out when the defense collapses. Rinse. Repeat with variations ….
Its all about having complementary pieces on the floor.
So far the 2nd unit has only gotten consistent outside shooting from Dooling and Bass. We believe Stiemsma can provide a10-15 foot threat and Bradley in all his other leagues has been a very good 3PT shooter. So there is a potentially a lot of shooters there (especially if you add in the rookies). But that potential has not yet been fully realized. Pietrus is a needed piece – he gives us a shooter at the 3 spot (which, considering that our main offense runs most of it’s plays with the SF (Pierce) as the main scoring option is probably a good thing to have on the 2nd unit).
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
+1
it just sounds too easy now why would Doc want to do that?
The Celtics second quarter swoon isn't anything new
The second quarter swoon has been a problem since the beginning of the new Big 3 era here in Boston. it’s frustrating to watch, but when a team has so much of their salary cap invested in the top three players, there’s not a whole lot to spend on bench players who can get the job done.
The Cs in the first few post-KG years were lucky enough to have two second round picks on rookie pay scale manning the backup big spots, and cheapie vets like House and Posey, as well as an affordable Tony Allen.
What this year’s squad doesn’t have is any bench players who took less than market value to play here. bass is a better than average bench player, with a reasonable contract, but Wilcox is a 9th man type. Dooling is what he is, an average at best backup PG. Bradley is a disaster on offense.
Pietrus is a value signing who could be that vet who could add some serious punch to the second unit, assuming he is healthy. If the second unit can’t get it together on offense, Doc will be forced to play Pierce and Allen with them to get some kind of scoring punch, stretching out these vets’ minutes.
This would be a better bench
dooling
Pietrus
Sasha
Bass
Wilcox/Stiemsma
This is way better than the ones Ive been seeing with marquis and bradley in the line up
by True Celtic on Jan 9, 2012 11:05 PM EST via mobile reply actions
IMO a better bench--
would have:
JO
Bass
One of the other veteran starters
Then Pietrus and Dooling, occasionally replaced by another bench guy.
I’d also occasionally try Bass and Wilcox with the three backcourt starters.
Yeah, I'd work Stiemer in with the other starters.
One of the big issues is the starters starting off sluggishly, and they don’t play that way at all when Stiemer’s in with them.
Me too. Bring O'neal and Wilcox off the bench and have them split time.
Stiemsma should start and will greatly benefit from playing with 4 all stars.
It's been said a number of times.
And I tend to agree with it. JO should be coming off the bench, him playing with the second unit ups his touches when he’s not deferring to the 3 future hall of famers so often.
JO can still score, and him working against second line Centers should help him.
Let Steamer start, let him screen off-ball for Ray, or pick and pop with Rondo, or use him in the double screen at the top of the key the team loves so much. There are a lot of options, and 9 times out of ten, you work him in a screen with one of the Big 4, and defenses are going to pretend he’s not even there. Who’s going to pop out to check Steamer when the guy on the other side is a future hall of famer, or All-Star point guard. He’s going to get looks.
I honestly think this needs to happen. I don’t understand Doc’s stubbornness at keeping JO with the starters.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
They need a Barbosa type for their bench but he makes too much money.
Oh well, maybe next year.
Give Sasha some green light.
The dude can hit jumpers off the dribble. I’ve seen it in Cleveland and I positively believe we can see it here, if he gets the go to shoot.
Doc has said he wants Sasha to shoot more.
Sasha has just gotten a bad case of the I’m-not-a-HoFer-so-I’ll-act-like-I’m-not-worthy-to-shoot-itis.
He’s not alone – it’s weird how many guys have come to this team with legit offensive credits who suddenly get all shy about taking a damn shot!
Wilcox also seems way more timid than he was on other teams. He was much more active and aggressive when I watched him in Seattle and even last year with Detroit. He’s gotta get some of that mojo back!
Bass is like, the only guy to come here recently who has had zero qualms about just going to work and taking his shots.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
That's funny because I personally want Sasha to do a lot more of...
Clapping for his teammates.
That’s about it.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Me too. He has not shown us anything when he is playing.
And unless somebody gets hurt, he will never get the minutes needed to make a difference.
Well, I'm not going to say I prefer Sasha on the floor versus some of our other players
but when he IS on the floor, when the open look is there, I want him to take the shot.
That split second of hesitation is the killer difference between a high-percentage uncontested shot and a low-percentage man-in-your-face miss OR a pass over to someone else who now has fewer seconds left on the shot clock.
We are too often generating open looks at the basket and then guys are being too timid to just pull the trigger.
I don’t want guys to act like Nate did at times – just running up to the top of the key and heaving. But when we run a play that pops someone open (or shows them a look at the basket), they have to recognize it and either slash or shoot without thinking.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
mmmmm does make a good point ...
about the trend among non-Big-3 players to defer to the point of ridiculousness. And I don’t think it’s an idea that Doc or Rondo or the Big 3 promote; it’s just that the newer guys seem to think they MUST defer, and so they never assert themselves. It’s happening this year with Wilcox and Dooling, and it’s happened other times (Marbury, Murphy).
by rocknrollforyoursoul on Jan 10, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think the non-Big Three Plus Rondo do get it drilled into their heads that they're 'role players'--
and that leads to the deferring.
I don't know for sure what the cause is
Doc and the other guys give plenty of public lip service to wanting ALL the team to be aggressive and take the open shot, so I don’t know if it is ‘drilled’ into them.
Aside from Shaq, BBD, Nate & now Bass (who, thank gawd actually makes his shots), I can’t think of a single other player who came in who didn’t succumb to this timidity. Maybe Delonte’?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I hate to say it
But I have almost zero faith in sasha or daniels.
by Kgwillkillyou on Jan 9, 2012 11:40 PM EST via mobile reply actions
well it takes spending money
nobody asking for another big 3 but role players eventually replaces older starter except here we dump ours. This team would be prime for talented player we drafted to step in now Leon Powe reb,def,and running the lanes. Gerald Green slashing decent 3 point shot athelitic finishes around the rim wingspan and size would have allow him time to adjust to def. Tony Allen def,stopper great finisher. Remember Chris Johnson D league big man running and jumping abilities needed more weight but would fill the lane. Marshon Booker leading all rookies in scoring if we keep all of these players if we kept and never trade Big Perkins the big 3 would have won at least 2 more rings and our bench along with Rondo and adding maybe D Howard or any young talented players would keep trucking and never worry about blowning the team up just watching the legends ride off to glory . Dumb ass Danny Ainge
I disagree
Gerald Green isn’t even in the NBA right now, he’s in the D-League for a reason and that he isn’t good enough. Sure, he has loads of potential, but that only gets you as far as you push yourself to get to. Leon Powe is undersized and injury prone, though I did really like him for his work ethic. Tony Allen looked like he was drunk half the time and was terribly inconsistent, though a great defender but that’s it. Chris Johnson needs to gain about 50 lbs, until then he will be stuck in the D-League. And Brooks is the only one I wish we had now, he would contribute more than JJJ.
Even after all of that I still think we would have lost Perkins to a trade or free agency. And Ainge might not be the most popular guy, but he’s the one that makes the tough decisions. He also crafted a championship team in 2008 and we’ve been contenders ever since. Better than I would have expected in 2007. So you might think he’s dumb but you should at least respect him for all he has done, we went from about last place to a championship, not too shabby. And even the last couple of years he has had almost not cap room to work with but still tries to put the best team out on the floor.
by green18, 19, 20... on Jan 10, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Well put. No brickbats from me vis a vis Danny Ainge. He's brought pride back to the Celtics.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix | International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ] | Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
Very true.
But he’s definitely made some mistakes.
Tony Allen and Delonte West being the most glaring, imo.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Everybody's made mistakes at some point or another [ even me, lol ].
In the overall scheme, Ainge is way, way ahead of the pack, warts and all. The triumphs over the past few seasons far outweigh any individual mishaps that have come to pass.
He built a celtics champion in a few seasons, after the team had been literally eviscerated during the years prior to his becoming g.m., and without two freak accidents, the 18th and 19th banners would be up there.
Lygafe
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix | International Hockey Forums > Europe > ISRAEL
Israel Recreational Hockey Association 2009-2010 & 2010-2011 [ Lygafe ] | Israel Ice Skating Federation - From the Media [ Lionel Gaffen ]
PAVS
I DONT THINK Anyone is telling him not too shoot, its up to him to make plays
i take stiemsma over wilcox his young legs we can cary for 3-4 yrs more
he can even be a legit center not a star but at least a starter maybe top 10 or 15 center is all we need. We don’t need a d12 center i know sound crazy but all we need is center that can REBOUND BLOCK and 10PTS a game stiemsma can sure well due this maybe even more. He can become at least a chandler type of center or at most be like Ibaka (but at center :P)
i take both of them over ONeal production
Right now at least they attack the rim and protects the rim I’m tired of my poibt guard having the same amount of rebounds that my center has
this is why id like to see the team
drop pavs and add arenas. i know he can be a head case at times but if we took a chance on marbury, etc…at the end of their careers why cant we take a chance on a younger guard who can still score?
dooling, arenas, pietrus, bass, stiemsma should be able to score and play solid defense.
by craziness@analltimehigh on Jan 10, 2012 3:05 AM EST reply actions
ok now that you all need a scorer
E.Moore has better shot and the confidence to take it so again why is he not playing ?
If he can learn to play point, there's a whole there to fill.
Doc’s waiting for him or Avery to step up and take that spot. He doesn’t want Dooling being the primary ball handler when Rondo’s off the floor.
That unit needs a creator, a guy who can make the right pass, and get to the rim, or knock down shots coming around picks. The job is there for the taking.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
If we switch Bass into the starting lineup for KG (happens a lot with KGs 5 minute stints), we could have a 2nd unit of:
Bradley
Daniels
Pietrus
KG
Stiemsma
I like Dooling and Moore (and on offense, I would prefer them over Bradley and Daniels), but for identity, I prefer a grinding defense. (This requires that Marquis starts playing at least as well, as he did in the two pre-season games).
If this unit also can play effective zone defense, they will be able to lock down most starting teams in the league. They need KG (or at least JO) as their defensive anchor against most starting lineups, but could probably hold their own against 2nd units with Wilcox or Bass.
Obviously the biggest problem would be the offense, but Daniels can run that with Bradley as sg. Some nights it would be painful, but at least the opponents would hurt too :)
by European NBA fan on Jan 10, 2012 5:35 AM EST reply actions
Except on defense.
where you probably put Bradley on the opposing PG.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Yes... and no
With this lineup Daniels is insurance, that we have someone who knows how to set up an offense. I would love to see Bradley develop his playmaking skills, but sometimes he just seems to be without a clue. So in reality it would probably be Daniels as pg.
by European NBA fan on Jan 10, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Next 4 games....
Dallas
Chicago
Indiana
Oklahoma City
4 and 8
or
8 and 4?
What do ya guys think?
Celtic Chat Handle: Bird
by David Henderson on Jan 10, 2012 8:12 AM EST reply actions
They'll beat Dallas, I think...
The other three games aren’t looking so hot but you never know… Which of those games are back2backs?
Basketball is like war in that offensive weapons are developed first, and it always takes a while for the defense to catch up. - Red Auerbach
The Indiana game is one of those awful 2nd-game of a back-to-back ... on the road.
Ugh.
This will be a tough stretch. But it gets a bit easier after that for a while.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
They'll have rest for Dallas nad Chicago.
They should be primed to get some quality wins (although I said that about the Indy game too, and then they went and put up a stinker.)
The Indiana game is a road back-to-back, after a night game at against a tough opponent. They wont even get on the plane till after 1 AM, get into Indiana sometime around 3, then have to play again at 7 that night.
I predict a 20+ point loss there. But there other 3 they should be ready for, if this team is still the elite class contender they claim they still are, then those 3 are put up or shut up time.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
I am not so much concerned about our record after we finish this 4 game stretch.
I simply want to see improvement in the bench play as well as KG ramping it up a notch. Plus what Pietrus can contribute.
I'll be concerned if they get swept and come out of it 4-8
but otherwise, I agree.
We’ve had the early preseason and now a break in which Doc hopefully will be able to apply ‘lessons learned’ to the team. The next 4 games will require competitive rotations and not “let’s take a look at 20 different 5-man units to see how each looks”.
Other than finding out what Pietrus can do, the experiments should start to go away and it’s time to see if the top rotations Doc will have come up with will actually work.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
True. If they lose the next 4 then I will not see the improvement I mentioned in my post above.
We will learn a lot about this team in the next 4 games.
big challenge is to find a post game
as Doc says we’re a jump shooting & pick and roll team.
we've gpt 2 good offensive players in Moore and Johnson who aren't playing
why not give them a chance?
rookies
When I do see Moore and JJ. It’s under 2 minutes left in the game. They look lost because there is no flow to the game. I would think playing together in college they might have some nice plays on offense together. Doc doesn’t play rookies much. Steamroller seems to be the exception this year.
Daniels isn't as worthless as some of you guys think.
He’s been stuck guarding bigger 3 guards. We’ve never asked him to be a big scorer for us, that’s not his game..
by Pietrus & Cream on Jan 10, 2012 9:58 AM EST reply actions
That’s why we don’t need daneils he can’t stretch the floor and keep the defense honest
by True Celtic on Jan 10, 2012 12:22 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Ya that's true.
I get a little sick every time he gets the ball wide open behind the arc.
by Pietrus & Cream on Jan 10, 2012 1:01 PM EST reply actions
Steamer...
will end up getting playing time (unless a trade happens) because JO isn’t going to hold up the whole year. Whether or not JO or Steamer starts, I don’t think it dramatically improves our chances at getting past the second round.
The only reason to start Steamer now is to mature him faster and rest JO’s legs so he can be some kind of trading chip before the deadline.
But let’s face it. We need another piece to this puzzle. And it’s not Steamer, as much as I would like it to be.
As a former all-star plagued with injuries through most of his career,
I truly believe JO will be a surprise hit for us in the post. Wether he’s healthy or not, he’s said himself he will just retire if not playing for a contender, and as a guy who’s been in the game as long as him, I’m sure the only thing that matters to him at this point is to go balls out in a blaze of glory for one more chance at a ring. Now with the supposed rise of steamboat, I expect to see JO proving to his team and coaches this month that he’s still worth the starter spot and not someone to trade. I think he will hit January hard and then have limited minutes per his own request and doc acting in the team’s post-season best interests, and then he will provide more than any of us could of hoped for or expected from him. His inspired play makes KG wake up from his sleep walk, and we have a legitimate front court presence come playoff time. I don’t know, maybe I’m just a blind-Celtic fan, but I see a strong playoff effort coming from our boys this year and while it’s obviously frustrating to see them struggle early on, I think seeding is largely irrelevant come post season.
by Mikey Bizzle on Jan 10, 2012 4:11 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Pull another 09-10
This time, it’s a lot harder with stacked teams in the east (i.e. Chicago, New York, Miami). Go healthy and get on fire and upset a higher seed in the post-season, Celtics!
It feels like the C's need either Rondo or Pierce out there at all times on offense
Otherwise the offense just comes to a screeching halt. Bass can certainly score, but he’s WAY more effective when he’s being set up by Rondo. Pietrus might be able to provide a spark, but he can only get spot up threes if someone is willing to drive to the hoop. Bradley has done that every once in a blue moon, but it seems like he’s still not confident enough to attack the rim on a regular basis like Rondo is.
Pierce is the only guy who can make his own offense consistently without any help from Rondo, so unless Bradley figures out how to be more of a penetrator, keep Pierce out there most of the time when Rondo’s resting.
by Aluminum Penguin on Jan 10, 2012 4:46 PM EST reply actions
What's wrong with this picture....
Avery and scoring/shooting should never be used on the same sentence….lol
Actually, there's a pretty solid sample size from his D-league and college days.
Which would say the kid actually can shoot, it’s just a matter of confidence.
"Phil is obviously a good coach. You don't win that many games without being a damn good coach, ... Remember one thing: He's been very fortunate. He picks his spots. That's all I can say." - Red Auerbach
Biggest Concern
I don’t know if any of you watched that Indiana game but I did. It’s easy to place blame on the starters or Paul Pierces terrible shooting woes. However, very few mention that our bench put up around 10 points(maybe a few more I quit watching at 2 mins left). No that wasn’t bass and his production that was our ENTIRE bench. Indiana’s bench was well over 30 points. We need our bench to show up and get some more good practice time as a unit. I think pietrus will help A LOT because he helps spread our second unit floor more. Much more then Sasha or Daniels as a SF. (Daniels is a true 2 guard with good scoring ability at that spot).
My point? I think our bench was our biggest weakness last game. Sure there were other issues but the bench production has to be the biggest issue that we SHOULD be able to fix easily. I think too many fans are getting down and upset about this season before we have a full team playing according to plan. I think this team will break out once we can get a bench together on a regular basis.
by RR_The_Future on Jan 11, 2012 1:51 PM EST via mobile reply actions
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