At The Center Of The Lakers Advanatage
by Jeff Clark on Feb 10, 2012 5:55 AM EST
in Boston Celtics Rumors
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PrintEnough forward thinking - The Boston Globe
Ever since Kendrick Perkins went down underneath a Kobe Bryant-Andrew Bynum sledgehammer in Game 6 of the 2010 NBA Finals, the Celtics have been unable to match the Lakers’ inside game. Both teams have changed personnel since then, but the Celtics are still struggling mightily to contend with the Bynum-Pau Gasol duo. Not only did Bynum provide the deciding points and Gasol block Ray Allen’s follow just before the final buzzer last night, they helped their team to a 55-45 rebounding advantage in the Lakers’ 88-87 overtime win last night.
For years the Laker fans have been railing about how much they missed Andrew Bynum in 2008 and things would have been different had he played (similar to how we lament KG in 2009 and Shaq last year). They claim that he would have been the difference in the Finals. He certainly helped in 2010 and once again last night.
Boston Celtics overmatched by Los Angeles Lakers' Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol - ESPN Boston
"They're really long and they're really good," offered Rivers after the game. That was about as much praise as Doc could muster because he was too upset with the overall play of his own team, be it the rebounding (55-45 Lakers edge), second-chance points (24-13 for L.A.) or the shocking lack of free throws (five in 53 minutes, all in the first half; Matt Barnes had more all by himself). What also bothered Rivers was that the Lakers got the loose balls above the rim and on the floor. When Gasol and Bynum weren't getting tip-ins, they were keeping things alive. "Longer teams, you have to hit them," the Celtics coach said. "You've got to put a body on them. If you think you can just turn and rebound when a guy is five inches taller than you, it's not going to happen. I bet they got four or five rebounds when we were actually in position. They just reached over. If you drive them back, they can't get those."
The Celtics are lucky that not many teams can boast a single talented center, never mind two. With that said, it sure would help if the Celtics could find some help down low. Boxing out and proper positioning would help some, but as the old saying goes, "you can't teach height."
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I don't know if it would have helped...
But doc should have experimented really. JO may have the bulk but he ain’t got no hops anymore to stop AB, so does KG. It might have or not to have put JJJ in there but we would never know since he is a rookie, but I do know JJ has got the hops and athleticism not to mention activity on the boards. he could be a pest in there.
It just really is annoying that each miss the Fakers put up, they still end up with the rebounds. We could have easily put them away, but the AB-PG duo destroyed any aspirations the C’s have of running away with a win. Not to mention the Fakers were lucky Kobe’s acrobatic shots are falling while PP had a rare bad night shooting.
JJJ is a stick insect. Too many fans think he’s a cure all for the Cs. Look how even Gasol bullies KG on the block, now think of a skinner KG who is a few inches shorter and has never defender a player of that size or calibre (no matter Bynum, who would literally eat him alive) and then realise exactly why Doc didn’t throw him out there,
my point is we need JJ's athleticism...
and im not buying this Gasol bullying BS. we would not put JJ on AB, he would be there for spot up duty against the Fakers scrubs, unlike what doc did by playing our frontline corpse’s to the ground
Agree...
about the athleticism point.
The Lakers front line is not just long, but athletic also so it would of been nice for the C’s to throw the most lengthy and athleticism front court players they could at LA which would be JJ and I think Steamer also.
I think KG & JO were struggling at times last night and Doc should of sat them and instead of going with undersized Bass and Wilcox should of went with JJ and Steamer who are longer players and who can also match up athletically with the LA’s front line.
No I would not have played both JJ and Steamer together due to there inexperience, but if they could of been mixed in with the starters one at a time I think it may have helped the C’s cause.
would you rather have a stick or a rock?
at least the stick could reach
I dunno -
when you look at the +/- data for last night’s game, when our starters were on the floor (JO, KG, PP, RA, RR) they out-played the Lakers. In just over 20minutes on the floor as a unit, they were +6.
Also, every one of our starters was individually “+” for the game except JO – who was even at +0.
We lost ground when we had our bench in. Bass, Wilcox, Pietrus and Moore all posted significant negatives while on the floor.
The net point of this is that our starters actually played better than the Laker starters, but their bench out-played our bench.
Of course part of the reason for the latter was that unfortunately for a significant stretch, Brown had Bynum and Gasol out there (with their bench wings) against our bench ‘bigs’ of Bass and Wilcox and THAT was a total mismatch.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
we always get out rebounded in almost every game.
it has always been a problem for us i dont understand why doc cant able to address our rebounding problem. If only we have offensive rebounds we should have won this game our rebounding problems hurts us not just this season but also in the past. Does doc hates rebounding that much that his unable to acknowledge that problem and find a solution to that? the c’s main concern right now is rebounding and the obvious problem of this team is rebounding and not able to box out. Is doc stubborn?? is he sleeping while watching the tapes while the c’s gets out rebounded? come on doc time to address the rebounding issues! We need offensive rebounds if you dont want an early exit in the playoffs.
+1
If the C’s could do a better job on the boards it would help there cause indeed.
Rebounding both on the offensive and defensive ends of the court is a tough job where young legs,atheism, size and length all play a key role in being able to rebounding well.
Unfortunately since the C’s lack the above and would rather get back on defense rather then attack the offensive glass they do have a tendency to lose the battle of the boards.
I think Doc would love to get more rebounds out of them
but I think he’s (rightfully) more concerned about lack of scoring in the paint.
If we can get the offense un-tracked to create higher efficiency shots, then rebounds will take care of themselves.
When we are playing our offense right, we miss fewer shots and need fewer offensive rebounds.
I would rate boxing out on defense at a pretty high priority, though. Bass in particular keeps trying to rely on his athleticism for rebounding when he needs to instead use footwork and positioning.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Acquiring rimplement bodies are not Doc’s problems: its the General Manager’s problem. AND, no matter who we have played at the 5 position since Russell-Cowens eras, blocking out underneath the basket has been a non-existing commodity and necessity: that Is Doc’s duty to correct’ and no Celtic coach has been able to or been interested in teaching.
We don't match up well with the Lakers
It starts with Rondo. (And I’m not a Rondo hater at all, just the opposite). Their game plan is to let Rondo win the game if he can. They don’t come near him, leaving Kobe, who is an under-rated defender, to roam around and be a double team for all of our offense. The next blow comes from the center position: we don’t have a quality one on either end of the court. And the next one is the most painful for me to writer but the Lakers do a great job of neutralizing Pierce. Ron Artest (I refuse to call this attention-seeking boob by his ridiculous name change) defends Pierce really well. Those three BIG factors alone will keep us losing to the Lakers. Thankfully the Lakers are in the West. There really is no game plan change; we just don’t have the guys to match up with the Lakers.
I think
you make a valid point Artest does a great job on Pierce and if Pierce is neutralized its tough for the C’s to win.
But I think the C’s primarily do not match up well with the Lakers front court at the moment and not just due to lack of length and athleticism but physicality also.
A couple a years ago Perk and Sheed who were not as long or athletic as the Lakers front court in the regular season and the final did a much better job matching up with the Lkaers front line because they played them very tough and physical.
Perk always bothered the Lakers with his defense and toughness all the way back to 2008,
His physical style of play helped neutralize to a extant the Lakers advantage in size and length and helped knocked them off there game, especially the softer and more finesse player Gasol.
Same with Rasheed as he showed in the 2010 finals when he also bothered the Lakers with his physical and tough play.
In those finals Rasheed played test book classical , physical big man defense and got into the head of the Lakers frontline of Odom, Bynum and especially Gasol who wanted no part of Rasheed and was rumored to have wet his shorts several times in those finals when he was matched up with Rasheed.
So though the C’s lack length and size in the front court compared to LA , I also think there lack of physical play and toughness they lack in the front court does not help them either in matching up better with LA’s front court and neutralizing it a bit.
Just my 2 cents though.
World Peace v Pierce
While I agree that Artest does annoy Pierce, perhaps as well as anyone, I think people are over-stating his net affect.
Sure, Pierce’s numbers were not red-hot last night. But he did post a very productive line of 18 pts on 7-18 (notably 6 of 13 inside the 3PT line), 9 rebounds, 7 assists and a steal. And only 2 TOs in 48 minutes.
Conversely, ‘Peace’ only contributed 2 pts, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals and a block. He had 1 TO in 34 minutes.
So, in terms of net value on the floor, that looks like a huge advantage in Pierce’ favor.
Pierce was ice-cold from 3PT land. I don’t know if that was so much Artest more than just Pierce being off. He could easily have sunk 1 or 2 more of those open looks that he simply missed.
After reviewing the game, I’m less bothered by how the starters played and feel if anything, JO did a very good job of being physical inside when he was on the floor. But you are dead right that we have a serious size problem when we have Bass going up against Gasol. In future games we need to re-think either the rotations or the personnel to avoid that.
I would go so far as to say that if it looks like Brown is going to leave both Bynum & Gasol out there when you pull KG, that you would be better off with some combination of JO, CW & JJ, and leave Bass on the bench. JJ may not have the body to bang with Bynum, but he has the length and vertical game that should match up well (at least physically) with Gasol. If nothing else, Gasol would not be able to just casually shoot over him, like he was doing to Bass.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
That's the consequence.....
When Danny and maybe Doc decided the team was more suited to a perimeter game and could actually thrive playing small ball. They are the experts. But I never believed that. At their age, they aren’t really built for that. Trading away Perk has left us with no center and a back up small forward as well.
It was a 1 point overtime loss!
We match up just fine with the Lakers. We have more weapons and in a 7 game series I know where my money goes.
Pretty much this.
In the regular season, I believe that close victories, albeit sweeter, are less telling than a blowout victory (duh).
This game could’ve gone either way—neither team played particularly will and a bit of luck here and a bit of luck there and we could’ve won. The same thing applies if the score were reversed.
Personally, since the 2009-10 Finals loss (although this was my favorite season as a Celtics fan, by far) I’ve become much more accepting of losses, especially in the regular season.
Size and length matters ...
in the game of basketball when the goal is to get rebounds and place the ball over a 10ft rim on offense.
The Lakers twin tower duo of Bynum and Gasol with there size and length in the front court no doubt caused problems for the C’s all night last night on both ends of the court from getting tip in’s, rebounds, clogging the paint, altering numerous shots and intimidating the C’s at times to the point they were scared to go into the paint on offense and settled for a over abundance of perimeter shots .
The Lakers size and length showed its advantage even until the buzzer ending when Gasol blocked Ray with his length.
What was amazing is I thought with the loss of Odom (LA’s 3rd tower) it would be easier to match up against LA but it was not.
I think Bynum and Gasol being BOTH longer and more athletic players then any of our front court tandems of KG,JO Wilcox or Bass, which is why they are a tough match up.
This is where I think the Steamer could of helped last night as he can match the length and athleticism of the Lakers front court tit for tat.
It would of also helped if all the C’s did a better job of boxing out the Laker bigs as they let them get good position for tip ins and rebounds most of the night.
Also Bynum and Gasol were playing aggressive all night long because they had no fouls.
If the C’s could of had a more offensive presence in the paint both in transition and in a 1/2 court setting and put pressure on Gasol and Bynum on the offensive end to force them to defend, they may had picked up some fouls.
Picking up fouls would of made Gasol and Bynum play less aggressive also and possibly may have gotten them into foul trouble, which would of forced them to sit on the bench which would of changed the complexion of the game big time as Murphy would then have to be there replacement whom would of then be a match easier player for the C’s to match up against.
Great points.
How many free throws did we take? 5? 7? More penetration =more fouls on the bigs=less time bigs on the court. Way too many jump shots and I cannot stand how long it takes Rondo to set up the play. Doc relied too much on the starters last night and got away from the formula that allowed us to win 9 of 10 going into the game. Needed to play the younger guys more in spots.
With all that said, I was astounded to read the majority of the 300plus comments on the game thread calling for trades, etc.. It was a one point loss in OT that could have easily gone the other way at the very end of regulation and overtime. If we would have won by one point, I suspect the comments would be much different. As Doc says, sometimes that is just basketball. I liked the team;s energy and focus last night. They just didnt make the shot or the pass in the end when it counted. Time to move on and start a new streak. This team is playing well right now despite the loss. Keep it going.
Exactly. It was a one point loss…sucks, but get over it.
This team has flaws, but it’s also important to realize that there are very few trades we can make they will actually address those flaws without creating new ones (read: we have very few trade assets). Rondo should not be traded not because he doesn’t have flaws or because he’s the greatest person ever, but simply because he has a LOT more value to us than anyone else.
The only player we can go after without giving up too much is Anderson Varejao, but even that’s unlikely.
I would love it if we got varejao.
Energy and toughness in an experienced big man/length guy is what we need, or at least could use. Actually I think Varejao would fit in better with us than mighty dwighty.
by ben_from_boston on Feb 10, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
after this game
I’m not so sure, Rondo is as valuable as we thought. If he had that killer instinct like paul, then yea, but he’s not a gimmie the ball guy when it counts unless he’s playing with his feelings hurt, then he’s a train wreck that gets hurt
good ole doc
stickin with the same problem expecting a different result. He hasnt learned for the game 7 finals. Rest your bigs and pull their butts when they tank. the bench dont have to be the go to guys they just need to do their jobs and let Pierce, allen make the plays. If they sit kg/oneal that lst two minutes, we might won. ah well
Great game!
Not happy with the outcome, but it was fun to watch. My only beef is that it seemed like PP was in for all 48 minutes + overtime. He was definitely worn down at the end. It would have been good to see how Bradley did against Kobe, but I get the feeling he would have racked up about 3 quick fouls & gone to the bench.
Bradley was out with a sore shoulder.
He would have given Fisher and Blake fits, the latter not near 100% coming back from an injury. The next big test are the two upcoming games against the Bulls. For me, that is a better yardstick as to where this team is right now than last night. I am more concerned with the Bulls than the Heat.
Yeah, I was SO looking forward to watching Bradley swarm all over Fisher & Blake!
I can’t help but feel that would have been a huge boost to how our bench ended up fairing last night (not well).
There is no way those guys would have been able to get that ball past the half court line on him in less than 8-10 seconds and that would have really cramped their offense.
Too bad.
I hope they all are able to get rested for tonight’s game and don’t have a let down after last night’s battle.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Are we missing Perkins and Powe yet
Seems like they competed effectively against the Lakers and actually ran down the floor with Rondo. All KG, Ray, and PP do is spot up and wait for a pass to come to them.
Boston Celtics - 2008 World Champions
Boston Bruins - 2011 Stanley Cup Champions
New England Patriots - Super Bowl xxxvi, xxxviii, and xxxix champions
Boston Red Sox - 2004, 2007 World Series Champions
Powe was the pow
It wasn’t Perk. Leon would vacuum up rebounds.
Perk never got his feet off the floor.
Powe was the real deal.
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