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Debunking The "Build around Rondo" Myth

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As we look ahead to next year and beyond, celtic fans appear to be resigned to one of two options

Option A: Build around Rondo

Option B: If we can get value for Rondo, trade him

I'll start with option B:

I completely agree. If Danny can get value for a player he should make the trade. However, every general manager is always thinking the same thing. It's like we are saying, hey Danny, if someone is offering you $1.20 for $1.00, make the deal. Well what GM (besides Chris Wallace) is going to offer $1.20 for $1.00? None. I trust Danny to make a good deal when it presents itself, but I don't think any such deal is on the table. So I'm operating under the assumption that Option B is not on the table.

Now option A:

Star-divide

I love Rondo (Repeat: LOVE), but I don't think he can be the best player on a championship team. His strengths and flaws have been well documented on other posts so I wont get too much into them. But whether you think Rondo is a top 5 or top 10 point guard is irrelevant. For the sake of argument, let's just say Rondo is a top 3 point guard. Here are a list of some teams built around superstar point guards:

The Early 00's Nets with Jason Kidd

The Early 00's Sixers with AI (might be considered a 2 guard)

The mid-late 00's Suns with Nash

The late 90's/early 00's Sonics with Gary Payton

The mid-late 00's hornets with Chris Paul

These teams all have one thing in common: they never won a championship. Kidd carried the Nets to the finals but got dominated each time. AI got to the finals once with the sixers. Nash really only got close once when he had amare and joe johnson, and may have gotten robbed of a title with the spurs controversy. Gary Payton made one finals appearance with the Sonics but didn't win. Chris Paul never really had a lot of help around him in N'orleans but made one conference finals. The last 8 starting championship point guards have been old watered down Jason Kidd, Derek Fisher, Derek Fisher, Rondo, Tony Parker, old watered down Gary Payton, Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups. Thats a mix between bad (Fish) serviceable (old watered down guys) and very good (billups, parker) but none dominated the position at the time they won a title.

So even if you think Rondo is an elite elite point guard, its very very difficult to win a championship with a point guard as your marquee player. Option A is off the table.

So what does that leave the Celtics with? I present option C: keep Rondo and build around someone else.

The reason Rondo is so valuable to us is because he only makes 10-11 million dollars a year. At that money, he doesn't need to be the franchise cornerstone. Keeping him in green gives the C's room to sign 2 or 3 guys who make more money than him.

So going forward what does Danny do? I think two teams have modeled the future for him - the nuggets and the sixers.

Would you say the Nuggets are built around Ty Lawson? No. But he stirs the drink for them. He runs the break with Dinillo, Nene, and the rest of the athletes, and Denver has become one of the most competitive teams in the West, and set up for a bright future.

Would you say the sixers are built around Iguodala? No. But he's the glue guy that holds the team together and they are one of the most competitive teams in the East, and set up for a bright future.

Now, you might say that neither the nuggets nor the sixers are in a position to win the title, and i would agree. But, they have the young, valuable assets that they could trade for a superstar down the road. I think Ainge should try to build the next edition of the Celtics in the same fashion as the sixers and nuggets. It's the best way to stay competitive immediately. Like Jeff said earlier today, Rondo has never played with stallions, and I hope he gets a chance to in the future.

Be respectful and keep it clean. Thanks.

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Gary Payton wasn't the starting pg for the Heat, Jason Williams was. But your point remains the same.

Option C is definitely what we have to do. There are only two teams in NBA history who won with a PG as their star player, as far as I can remember: The Magic Johnson Lakers (though Magic was an anomaly and he had KAJ on his team) and the Isaiah Thomas Pistons.

The immediate strategy is to get Dwight Howard. Once that falls through, I’m not sure what the next option is. However, a Rondo/Howard duo would be one the worst combined FT% in history.

by KY Celts fan on Feb 13, 2012 10:37 PM EST reply actions  

You forgot

The B.J. Armstrong and Steve Kerr Bulls of the 90’s. Those two carried those Bulls teams to 6 titles.

by Cletus1985 on Feb 14, 2012 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

MJ was playing the point for the bulls

BJ and Steve would find themselves an open shot…. they rarely set the offense.

by KG took you lunch money on Feb 14, 2012 5:39 AM EST up reply actions  

There really isn’t a point in the triangle and if we’re really nitpicking I’d really argue that Scottie played point more and better than MJ.

by muckduck on Feb 14, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

It was just a joke

No need to argue who actually handled the point guard duties in Chicago.

by Cletus1985 on Feb 14, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Rondo/Perk was pretty bad at FT% as well.

Not a good thing. But not something that I would consider a deal killer.

The advantages of the combination would probably far outweigh that negative.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Feb 15, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

The difference between Rondo/Perk and Rondo/Howard is that the latter would be the most important starters on the floor, while the former were the least important. When it comes to clutch time FTs, it is expected that your leaders take those shots. If our leaders go from ~85% FT percentage in the Big Three to ~65% FT percentage in a Rajon-Dwight tandem, then that could be disastrous.

by KY Celts fan on Feb 16, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Ive said that before

But you worded it better. Real hard to win with a point guard as your best player. And even Thomas and Billups were shoot first point guards. So was Parker but lets face it Duncan was the best player (and finals performer) on that 07 Spurs team. Parker only won the award because his fame whore wife stole the spotlight.

by AussieGreen on Feb 13, 2012 11:51 PM EST reply actions  

What's this?

Duncan was the better player but Parker destroyed the Cavs in the Finals, that’s why he got the award. I don’t get why you went after Longoria and Parker like that.

by Celticsdude on Feb 14, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually Duncan destroyed them

Parker just got more highlight plays. Theres a difference. Parker shot at a very high rate throughout the series and got a good fg%. But with the exception of points, field goal percentage and turnovers Duncan killed Parker in every other stat and was the mai reason why they swept.

by AussieGreen on Feb 14, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

Without a post player like Howard— it becomes apparent that you HAVE to add SG / SF scoring and creating to build around Rondo. That said, Allen and kG cannot be starters in that formula. We could sign Green and Ellis (trade a pick and others)- then interject JJJ into the mix if Bass walks. Trade bradley or Moore or a Pick for Mosgov from Denver. I think we missed the boat on inquiring about Pekovic in Minnesota— and I think Mosgov would be a low cost steal for us at Center. If we want stallions- the older horses have to go….

by P stoff on Feb 13, 2012 11:52 PM EST reply actions  

The one thing all championship teams since 1980 have had...

besides the 04 Pistons and the championship Bulls teams was a dominant post up big man who could get great post position and get off close turnaround jumpers and make them or could do that and also be able to go right to the rim from that position. Even the Bulls had Bill Carwright early who could battle for position and hit a few turnarounds. Lakers had Kareem, Philly had Malone, C’s had KM and Parish, Rockets had HA, the 90’s Pistons had James Edwards, Spurs had TD, Lakers of 00’s had SO, Heat had SO, C’s had KG, Lakers of late 00’s had Pau, and Dallas had Dirk who was not the back to the rim player the others were but he took it to the rim a lot off that dribble going to the rim and that high arcing shoot is impossible to block really. If he was not aggressive like he was, no way the Mavs beat the Heat. It made the difference.

The teams you brought up all had great pass first pg, but none of them had that impact big man post player who could post up and get off easy close shots and or take it to the rim a lot. Rondo has KG now but he is not the same player he was. Keep Rondo who is young and top five pg and Pierce, then get younger by using Allen who has value and KG who also has value if he plays more of a diminished role for trades now. Have to try to get a young real post player or at least a decent one who can get some close shots at the rim which is tough because their are not to many of those around, the good ones that is but this is most everybody’s problem except the few teams that have good ones and the ones who have decent ones. The best ones right now are Nene, LA, Lopez who is hurt, DH—who does not have a lot of touch on those close ones but is such a force, Pau, and Bynum—who really could be a lot better if he learned to be quicker with the doubles. The next group who are decent are Gortat, Pek, Noah—not really there yet, but good defensive center.

"Booze takes a lot of time and effort if you're going to do a good job with it."
― Raymond Carver, Where I'm Calling From: New and Selected Stories

GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!

by mjtig on Feb 14, 2012 1:48 AM EST reply actions  

You make accurate points about past successes. . .

But the game is completely different now. Teams play hybrid zone-man defense, and moving picks are now fully integrated parts of the game. Also, the no hand-check rule in place today is very different from past decades. So while you make great points about those great teams of bygone eras, I don’t think their formulas for success should be used as a blueprint for automatic success today.

More than anything in today’s NBA, you need players who can drive to the basket and get fouled, or get their shot off in traffic. Rondo’s got 2 of those attributes. But sadly, until he can make free throws at 70 plus percent, he’s a total liability in close games.

by MetroGlobe on Feb 15, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Shaqs Lakers, Duncans Spurs, Gasols Lakers,

…and KG’s C’s are recent enough and they are still the ones winning championships. If Dirk did not change his game and start driving to the rim and posting eventhough that has never been his game, they don’t win.

Robert Crumb: You turned yourself into a comic hero?
Harvey Pekar: Sorta, yeah. But no idealized s***. No phony bulls***. The real thing, y'know? Ordinary life is pretty complex stuff.

From the movie--American Splendor

GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!

by mjtig on Feb 16, 2012 12:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'd tell you what though.... I think the best big man out there

that will really compliment KG down low is Big Al. A true back to the basket Center with a variety of post moves. Imagine if it was Al out there instead of JO’s corpse, we would be sorted because of our inside/outside offense. Sure he ain’t the best defensive presence but JO is not a such defensive stud himself nowadays and he still thrives in the C’s system, there is no telling how Big Al would impact defensively but im willing to find out.

Now the only problem is how do you acquire him because the Jazz would certainly reject any offer not named Rajon.

by bopna on Feb 14, 2012 2:24 AM EST reply actions  

yeah forgot about him and Hibbert is also in the second decent group--heck throw Noah out of it at the moment lol

Just not a lot of those guys out there

"Booze takes a lot of time and effort if you're going to do a good job with it."
― Raymond Carver, Where I'm Calling From: New and Selected Stories

GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!

by mjtig on Feb 14, 2012 2:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Hibbert isn't that great at scoring on the block but I guess the most important thing is he can

Last year he averaged 46% FG as a huge center that didn’t take many jumpshots. This year he is at 49% FG, but when you watch him he isn’t fluid or great with footwork. Hibbert has much better defense though so it evens out.

by kg2128 on Feb 15, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

He has gotten better at it and does more of it...

and with the lack of big post up centers, we is still in that second group of decent post up big men.

Robert Crumb: You turned yourself into a comic hero?
Harvey Pekar: Sorta, yeah. But no idealized s***. No phony bulls***. The real thing, y'know? Ordinary life is pretty complex stuff.

From the movie--American Splendor

GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!

by mjtig on Feb 16, 2012 12:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

*he is....

Robert Crumb: You turned yourself into a comic hero?
Harvey Pekar: Sorta, yeah. But no idealized s***. No phony bulls***. The real thing, y'know? Ordinary life is pretty complex stuff.

From the movie--American Splendor

GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!

by mjtig on Feb 16, 2012 1:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Love Big Al but

Yes Big Al is a very good low post scorer, but as you state his defense is still poor (indivual or shot blocker) and he’s not really a center, more a PF. II really think that JO is a much better defender than Al, although his availability is an issue. Nor is Big Al a dominant rebounder. To bring back Al we would need a defensive center, maybe one who could play at the high post. Can’t think of one right now.

by badax33 on Feb 15, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the whole 'build AROUND' premise is a myth.

You build a team WITH players, not around them.

The thing that makes Rondo attractive, whether you keep him OR trade him is that no matter where you rank him among top PGs, his manageable salary makes him a huge value compared to most other top PGs. That is what allows you to add one or two superstars to the mix.

Rondo’s value to dollar ratio makes him ideal to build WITH.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Feb 15, 2012 9:10 AM EST reply actions  

his contract is not that great

look at jarrett jack. he is only paid half as much as rondo and hes not that far behind rondo. its a good contract but there are many better

by JuJuan some moore on Feb 15, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Jarret Jack has a career Win Share/48 rate of .076

and has never posted a rate higher than .103 in any of his 8+ seasons.

Rondo has a career WS/48 of .140 and since his rookie year of .064, has posted a number .126 or higher every year.

Please don’t confuse the two. Jack is a decent, journeyman player. Heck he had a great game against the C’s last time out. But he is nowhere near the class of player that Rondo is.

The only full time PGs who have posted comparable aggregate win share numbers to Rondo during the span of his career are CP3 (way up at the top) and Nash & DW. Rose & Westbrook haven’t yet put in as much service time but obviously need to be in that same conversation. Of that bunch, Rondo is an absolute bargain.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Feb 15, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

rondos win/shares are skewed by the reality that he has played most of his career..

With three hall of farmers, the other point guards you referenced, who did they play with?
I am sure that if you looked at d. fishers numbers, he would have good numbers as well, having played with Kobe, gasol, odum…

by greensince72 on Feb 15, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

did you notice the jump from .064 to .126 ...

The first year of the big three… or did you think Rondo suddenly improved that much through his off season work ethic that summer…

by greensince72 on Feb 15, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Really? Jarret Jack?

by muckduck on Feb 15, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

was there an opinion there? i used jarret jack because he makes exactly half of what rondo makes

by JuJuan some moore on Feb 15, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

But you haven't debunked anything

You have demonstrated that no one has won with a dominant point guard in the recent past, and that’s true. If you go back one more decade than you do, you could point out that Magic and Isiah Thomas won 7 championships between them. The past will support either argument.

The problem is, the Celtics are not playing in the past, but in the present (future?), so while history can be a guide, it shouldn’t be the only criteria for determining future success because the game continues to change its rules, its strategies, and its players.

The broader question that we need to ask is not will he be a dominant point guard, but will he be a dominant player, period. The Bulls have manged to do quite well building around a point guard, and I would argue have an excellent chance of bringing home a championship in the future. So the championship question is: is your team’s best player the best player on the floor? If you believe Rondo can be the best player on the floor for an entire playoff run, you build around him. If you don’t, you go out and get a guy who can be. It’s not a positional thing.

by Section301 on Feb 15, 2012 11:21 AM EST reply actions  

well im saying that rondo doesnt need to be the best player on the team

and the consensus around here is that if hes not a “franchise guy” we need to trade him. I’m saying he doesnt need to be the franchise guy, but his contract is valuable to us and allows us to find someone else who can be a max guy.

and i brought up the examples to show that if nash and kidd couldnt do it alone than rondo definitely cant. it might have nothing to do with position, but i was just comparing a rondo-led celtics to other point guard-led teams.

but we seem to agree on the main premise – that just because he isnt a superstar doesnt mean he has to be traded. he can still be a piece of the puzzle

by rm81 on Feb 15, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with your post, made similar comments earlier

I think some of us were hoping he could be a franchise guy, but now we know he is not. This was the year to prove it, big 3 toward the end of their careers, the Captain saying this is Rondo’s team, etc. If you look at the list you gave with the last 8 point guards who won championships, all of them could shoot the ball. They weren’t exactly Ray Allen like, but they were all threats from the perimeter. You couldn’t just sag way off and not get punished. I don’t think we should just trade Rondo asap because of that, Rondo’s value can only go up. However that might be why some people want to, a franchise guard that can’t shoot from the outside and can’t shoot free throws makes close games in the 4th quarter tricky. It was okay before when this team belonged to the big 3, now that the focus is shifting off of them Danny has to figure this out.

by kg2128 on Feb 15, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

GOING DOWN SLOWW

We need to do something, If Danny or Doc keep ignoring it, we will go nowhere because neither of them have the huevos to say or do anything about the situation. Believe me the Celtics are indeed in trouble……..

by juanpan on Feb 15, 2012 10:14 PM EST reply actions  

Great article

People seem to get hung up on the idea that “building around Rondo” means that Rondo will have to be the best player on the team no matter what and we’ll only add worse players as his supporting cast.

Rondo is a great piece to build with. Legitimate point guards are not easy to come by in the NBA. Half the league has an undersized shooting guard dribbling the ball up the floor in place of one and Rondo is one of the best in the league at a very difficult position to fill.

It also makes a ton of sense to build with/around Rondo because he’s got a very reasonable contract and the Celtics will be able to add one or two max contract players to the roster as a result. He’ll be distributing the ball to them and will only amplify their talent.

Also, for people who say that Rondo isn’t enough by himself I feel like it goes without saying that that is true. For the Cleveland Cavaliers, Lebron James wasn’t enough to win a championship. Dwayne Wade, without Bosh or Lebron, was not enough to make the Heat anything more than a 1st round exit from the playoffs. Chris Paul on the Hornets was not enough, Derron Williams on the Jazz or the Nets was not enough.

To say Rondo is not enough for the Celtics moving forward is not even a criticism of him in my mind. Just a statement of fact. No single player is enough and stacking superstars on a team together may not be enough either if they don’t have the right coach, system, chemistry, supporting cast.

Rondo has already shown that he can be part of a championship team and will rise to the occasion when faced with big moments in games that matter the most. There’s not a lot of players in the league you can say that about who are also one of the top 5 in the league at their position and are signed to a contract several million less than their peers.

by BlackMass on Feb 16, 2012 1:23 AM EST reply actions  

No Way...

It seems that people forget how the C’s won their last Championship, with defense. How was Rondo’s offense back then? Pretty lame but he did do some clutch offense. How was Ray Allen’s shooting that year and into the playoffs? Not up to his standards. Pierce, KG and Rondo carried that Team along with some intimidating defense and rebounding by Perk and some big threes from their 6th man Posey.

Rondo still has no problem getting other players involved. The problem has not been Rondo, it has been the poor jump shooting team the C’s have become with a very slow moving team defense.

This team needs a big that can play D first and score 12 to 14 in the post. Who that big is will be up to Danny to find.

by bonzo22 on Feb 16, 2012 8:04 AM EST reply actions  

Short memory

Sure Ray shot like garbage in the Cleveland series and the first game of the Detroit series but that was it. I do remember in the finals Ray set a new NBA record for 3 pointers made while Rondo spent much of his time on the bench because Eddie House was better suited. The main 4 guys in the 08 finals where (in order) Pierce, KG, Allen, Posey. Rondo had an great game 6 but that was it in that series (Allen and KG also had a great game 6 though). Yes they did win with defense but Rondo was not the elite defensive player back then as he is now.

by AussieGreen on Feb 16, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

UR Right...

Thanks for the refresher. Maybe you can also refresh my memory with again. Wasn’t Rondo doing a lot more drive and dish plays then, as opposed to the present? It just seems that led to a lot of clean jump shots for the Big 3 at the time.

by bonzo22 on Feb 17, 2012 7:43 AM EST up reply actions  

The future is now, need changes not memories ……

by juanpan on Feb 17, 2012 12:23 AM EST reply actions  

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